Pedals (Heel Toe)

[coupedan]

Heel & Toe is pretty easy if you don't use the "Conventional" method, by which I mean using the ball of your foot to do the braking and the bottom of your heel to do the blipping, that in the Zed is very difficult.

However..

If you use the technique that I adopted by using the ball of your foot (Under your "Big" toe) position that approx 50% on the brake pedal bias to the right (Closest to throttle pedal).
Then using your outer part of your foot (The leading edge from your little toe) to blip the throttle, you will quickly learn how to modulate the brake and throttle together.
For those who have never tried "Heel and Toe" I would try "Rev matching" first in the Zed just to get your engine speed changes up to scratch so you don't have to concentrate on looking at the speedo etc when you do it.
It should all be done by "feel"

Good luck

 

[BMWZ4MC]

Heel and toe is incredibly easy in my S2000 - the height and separation of the pedals is perfect and the brakes are not over-servoed allowing the throttle to be blipped without slamming on the brakes. My Westy is pretty good but a little cramped for my sizeable feet unless I'm wearing proper racing boots.
The ///M is bloody awful though! On the road, the brakes are too sensitive and over-servoed to allow moderate braking during down shifts unless the pedals are modified to raise the throttle (the OEM relative heights favour braking over rev-matching). Furthermore, the pedal spacing is too broad for a simple inversion / eversion foot-rocking action to be sufficient. The situation is better on the track where brake pedal travel is necessarily greater, but still the set up is less than ideal.
As such, like several others, I've fitted pedal covers. However, I've also designed a throttle pedal extension, the position of which can be adjusted. It can even be removed easily. This is simply a section of a steel rule with a rubber foot attached tucked under the throttle pedal cover before the screws are tightened down. I can swing it up or down to match the relative prominences of different footwear, and slide it in and out for wider or narrower shoes.

 

[JimF]

I still have no idea how to do this :lol:

Me neither but I would imagine doing it anywhere but on a track is asking for trouble

Nonsense. I've been doing this for years on the road, in 99% of the cars I drive. It enables you to fully use engine breaking to slow down and ensures smooth downshifts. I do this without thinking. Never had an issue.

To be a bit more constructive, there are 'heel toe' pedals available with an added section at the top.

 

[MrPT]

I still have no idea how to do this :lol:

Me neither but I would imagine doing it anywhere but on a track is asking for trouble

Disagree with this - it should help with car stability etc if done right. BUT, you definitely need to be careful when practicing because the chance of missing gears or overdoing either brake or accelerator is high. Best to start by just rev matching, as suggested in a previous post, which doesn't involve any multi-pedalling.

 

[Bing]

I do rev matching under braking already, just blipping the throttle enough to match the engine speed. I tried heel and toe the other day and, despite being very used to M brakes by now, I nearly broke my nose on the steering wheel :rofl:

More practice required... Also, I really should fit the pedal covers I have in the garage that have been sitting there for ages

 

[ronk]

With a proper pedal set up, heal and toe is quite natural - the side of the foot was best on the (old ) cooper s especially when the throttle had a kidney shaped extension added.

Q. Are people talking here of proper heal and toe to incorporate a double de-clutch or just a sound effect for the crowds?

 

[Confused®]

Using the right hand to front brake and match the revs with the throttle at the same time. . . .easier being a hand movement don't you think than a foot movement? (though there is the coordination needed for the right amount of right foot rear braking as well it doesn't call for manipulating the foot to do two things)

It's interesting that bikers probably do it without thinking its a special technique - essential on a m/bike - hate to think what would have happened on any of my previous bikes if I hadn't matched revs on down changes - that's a very small single contact patch at the back

:driving:

Yes and deffo makes you concentrate.

 

[Confused®]

I do rev matching under braking already, just blipping the throttle enough to match the engine speed. I tried heel and toe the other day and, despite being very used to M brakes by now, I nearly broke my nose on the steering wheel :rofl:

More practice required... Also, I really should fit the pedal covers I have in the garage that have been sitting there for ages

:rofl: :rofl:

 

[99ron]

My brothers RS4 does a nice rev matching blip on the downshift with the flappy paddle nonsense it comes with. You can't beat the satisfaction of doing it yourself and getting it right... some of the time

 

[BMWZ4MC]

With a proper pedal set up, heal and toe is quite natural - the side of the foot was best on the (old ) cooper s especially when the throttle had a kidney shaped extension added.

Q. Are people talking here of proper heal and toe to incorporate a double de-clutch or just a sound effect for the crowds?

I always rev match when down shifting. As such, heel and toe is necessary if braking whilst down shifting.
I double declutch (using heel and toe for the midshift blip and for the final rev match) if I feel that I'm demanding a great deal of the synchromesh, typically when changing down into a lower gear at a road speed that necessitates the engine revving to the top of the rev range (eg downshifting from third to second at 60mph whilst approaching a corner in order to both make use of engine braking and also in preparation for accelerating out of the corner). It is with such gear changes that rev matching (and therefore heel and toe if braking) is most especially important or the rear wheels will lock and the will car spin.
Sometimes when driving my Westfield on the track, I use a technique of deliberately under rev matching to momentarily lock the rear wheels whilst turning in. This tucks in the rear end by inducing momentary oversteer and is useful when tackling a tight chicane. This is especially so when inadvertantly carrying too much speed into corner where the Westfield might tend to understeer due to it's slightly front-biased weight distribution.
I suspect that many RWD cars that spin on track days do so as a result of inadvertant under rev matching on corner entry, whilst the remainder do so under power during corner exit.

 

[Nictrix]

Disagree with this - it should help with car stability etc if done right. BUT, you definitely need to be careful when practicing because the chance of missing gears or overdoing either brake or accelerator is high. Best to start by just rev matching, as suggested in a previous post, which doesn't involve any multi-pedalling.

You just said it yourself that you need to be careful which is exactly why I said it should only be done on a track.
Get any of this wrong on the road and you are in trouble especially seeing as the whole need for it would be because you are travelling rather fast.
If you are not going quick, whats the point? :idunno:

 

[ronk]

It should be a natural tecnique ! - I would only use it in anger when it is natural.
It was natural in my youth in a track based cooper s and give all due respect to the bike boys doing it by hand (no mucky comments!)

 

[Nictrix]

It should be a natural tecnique ! - I would only use it in anger when it is natural.
It was natural in my youth in a track based cooper s and give all due respect to the bike boys doing it by hand (no mucky comments!)

To be honest it is extremely easy to do on a bike and years ago on large cc bikes it was needed to stop the rear locking up.
While braking using 2 fingers on your right hand the throttle can be rolled/flicked with your palm slightly to blip the throttle.
But again this is only needed if going fast, normal road speeds its really not necessary if you downshift at the proper speed anyway.
The last thing you want is to fire your engine into the redline while engine braking by going to aggressively.
Did someone not do this on here recently damaging their DMF?

 

[ronk]

From a non biker it sounds like you should get free membership to the magic circle

 

[Confused®]

Biker gets it wrong and;

 

[MrPT]

Disagree with this - it should help with car stability etc if done right. BUT, you definitely need to be careful when practicing because the chance of missing gears or overdoing either brake or accelerator is high. Best to start by just rev matching, as suggested in a previous post, which doesn't involve any multi-pedalling.

You just said it yourself that you need to be careful which is exactly why I said it should only be done on a track.
Get any of this wrong on the road and you are in trouble especially seeing as the whole need for it would be because you are travelling rather fast.
If you are not going quick, whats the point? :idunno:

Because it is really, really fun. Same reason we all have Z4s when we could be driving diesel estates.

You don't have to be doing illegal speeds. 70mpg on a dual carriageway coming into a roundabout - change down from 6th, block shifting with rev-matching to 3rd/4th then 2nd, all the time with pressure on the brake pedal - car feels totally planted, the engine sounds amazing and if the roundabout is clear you can get on the beans really early and, as we all aspire to, end up upside down, facing the wrong way in a ditch. :?

 

[BMWZ4MC]

Disagree with this - it should help with car stability etc if done right. BUT, you definitely need to be careful when practicing because the chance of missing gears or overdoing either brake or accelerator is high. Best to start by just rev matching, as suggested in a previous post, which doesn't involve any multi-pedalling.

You just said it yourself that you need to be careful which is exactly why I said it should only be done on a track.
Get any of this wrong on the road and you are in trouble especially seeing as the whole need for it would be because you are travelling rather fast.
If you are not going quick, whats the point? :idunno:

Because it is really, really fun. Same reason we all have Z4s when we could be driving diesel estates.

You don't have to be doing illegal speeds. 70mpg on a dual carriageway coming into a roundabout - change down from 6th, block shifting with rev-matching to 3rd/4th then 2nd, all the time with pressure on the brake pedal - car feels totally planted, the engine sounds amazing and if the roundabout is clear you can get on the beans really early and, as we all aspire to, end up upside down, facing the wrong way in a ditch. :?

:lol: :rofl:

 

[Nictrix]

:lol: :lol:

 

[jimmybell]

Of course do it on the road - we can all pretend our downshifts sound like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sRdNF0NyCY