Panel Replaced and Repainted- Should I be bothered?

[Nictrix]

A friend has a C43 and loves it. He had an Audi S5 before it that came to a soggy end.
He has it mapped to around 450bhp and the noise is something else.
He was toying with the idea of a C63 but as its a daily travelling all over the country it would be too expensive to run. He also prefers the C43 having 4 wheel drive.

 

[mgrlane]

A friend has a C43 and loves it. He had an Audi S5 before it that came to a soggy end.
He has it mapped to around 450bhp and the noise is something else.
He was toying with the idea of a C63 but as its a daily travelling all over the country it would be too expensive to run. He also prefers the C43 having 4 wheel drive.

Might be a bit more you know if it was the 6.2 engine.

They are 451 as standard and the engine is the same lump as the sls but detuned. They did a P31 or PPP (which is forged with sls internals) that's mapped to 489 (mine) and a 507 (507ps) and the black which is 510bhp.

They held the engine back so it doesn't step on any of the big brothers toes. Mine has the secondary cats removed and had been remapped to 520 (it hasn't been dyno'd so I don't have proof).

I think they can get them to 570 with headers and decat but as soon as you just map a standard one it will free up 50+ just buy letting more air in.

450 from a 6.2 isn't that much in the scheme of things when you think that BMW managed 420 just about that from a 4ltr at the time.

If Merc were popping them out of the factory with 520 odd bhp (100 more than the m3) and a non optioned LSD then they really would have taken the battle to BMW for the super saloon.

 

[Nictrix]

A friend has a C43 and loves it. He had an Audi S5 before it that came to a soggy end.
He has it mapped to around 450bhp and the noise is something else.
He was toying with the idea of a C63 but as its a daily travelling all over the country it would be too expensive to run. He also prefers the C43 having 4 wheel drive.

Might be a bit more you know if it was the 6.2 engine.

They are 451 as standard and the engine is the same lump as the sls but detuned. They did a P31 or PPP (which is forged with sls internals) that's mapped to 489 (mine) and a 507 (507ps) and the black which is 510bhp.

They held the engine back so it doesn't step on any of the big brothers toes. Mine has the secondary cats removed and had been remapped to 520 (it hasn't been dyno'd so I don't have proof).

I think they can get them to 570 with headers and decat but as soon as you just map a standard one it will free up 50+ just buy letting more air in.

450 from a 6.2 isn't that much in the scheme of things when you think that BMW managed 420 just about that from a 4ltr at the time.

If Merc were popping them out of the factory with 520 odd bhp (100 more than the m3) and a non optioned LSD then they really would have taken the battle to BMW for the super saloon.

The C43 is a 3L V6. Standard is about 380bhp

 

[mgrlane]

A friend has a C43 and loves it. He had an Audi S5 before it that came to a soggy end.
He has it mapped to around 450bhp and the noise is something else.
He was toying with the idea of a C63 but as its a daily travelling all over the country it would be too expensive to run. He also prefers the C43 having 4 wheel drive.

Might be a bit more you know if it was the 6.2 engine.

They are 451 as standard and the engine is the same lump as the sls but detuned. They did a P31 or PPP (which is forged with sls internals) that's mapped to 489 (mine) and a 507 (507ps) and the black which is 510bhp.

They held the engine back so it doesn't step on any of the big brothers toes. Mine has the secondary cats removed and had been remapped to 520 (it hasn't been dyno'd so I don't have proof).

I think they can get them to 570 with headers and decat but as soon as you just map a standard one it will free up 50+ just buy letting more air in.

450 from a 6.2 isn't that much in the scheme of things when you think that BMW managed 420 just about that from a 4ltr at the time.

If Merc were popping them out of the factory with 520 odd bhp (100 more than the m3) and a non optioned LSD then they really would have taken the battle to BMW for the super saloon.

The C43 is a 3L V6. Standard is about 380bhp

Sorry, I really need to learn how to read....

 

[Pondrew]

As I am in the market for a 4 seater German "nutter bast*rd" car I have been reading this thread with interest. The C63 had not really been on my radar as was looking at the latest generation, which were too expensive (or too much depreciation which I will be funding).
From everything I've read about the "M" cars (3 or 4) and C class AMGs, it is only the "spitfire sound" of the AMG that is superior to the BMs.
I am interested why you wanted a 9 year old C63 over the M3 and why I should buy one, when the equivalent age and mileage M3 is 5k cheaper?

 

[mr.tourette]

Because Mercedes

 

[Pondrew]

Because Mercedes

Because Mercedes what?

 

[mr.tourette]

Because Mercedes

Because Mercedes what?

Just because Mercedes
I've no real world experience of M cars but what I do know is every Merc I've ever sat in just feels more premium than any equivalent bmw model.. I know that M car fan's will probably say that's bollocks but it is just my opinion that Merc make better cars than BMW.. I'd take the c63 over an m3 every day of the week and twice on a Sunday

 

[Pondrew]

Just because Mercedes
I've no real world experience of M cars but what I do know is every Merc I've ever sat in just feels more premium than any equivalent bmw model.. I know that M car fan's will probably say that's bollocks but it is just my opinion that Merc make better cars than BMW.. I'd take the c63 over an m3 every day of the week and twice on a Sunday

If it was 1993 I'd agree. Not anymore, my friend. Mercs are not built to the high standard they used to be.

As a driver's car, a Mercedes salesman summed it up for me a few years ago. He said a BMW will say to you "come on come on hurry up where we going come on", whereas a Mercedes will say "just one moment sir, I will be with you presently".

He had a point. Mercedes have never challenged BM's marketing as "the ultimate driving machine" have they?

 

[mgrlane]

As I am in the market for a 4 seater German "nutter bast*rd" car I have been reading this thread with interest. The C63 had not really been on my radar as was looking at the latest generation, which were too expensive (or too much depreciation which I will be funding).
From everything I've read about the "M" cars (3 or 4) and C class AMGs, it is only the "spitfire sound" of the AMG that is superior to the BMs.
I am interested why you wanted a 9 year old C63 over the M3 and why I should buy one, when the equivalent age and mileage M3 is 5k cheaper?

Well,

I had all intentions of keeping the Z for the next 4-5 years. I was going to put a diff in her and that was going to be my car. I literally woke up a month ago and wanted a V8.

Audi? Na.

Mercedes? Na, I had driven a Tesla once and that was the closest I had ever got to an auto. I didn't think they were for me (I don't know if this was the box or the electric or both). So they were out of the question.

I joined the Facebook group for the 9x's and was asking alot of questions. It seemed like there was alot more choice of auto's for M3's than there was for manuals. I asked them why and what their thoughts were on the two. It was probably 75-25 in favour of auto's.

So I thought the people can't be wrong. Most of them seemed to think that an autobox suited a V8 and yes running through gears was fun but not to much was lost in the transition.

So I had to think "why didn't I like auto's" was it because I read in all the car mags and videos that manuals are for purest's? Or in my head do I think that they are all like the e46 range. Either way I thought I was just telling myself this because it's what everyone else says so I should go into it with an open mind.

So I was set on consideration of a manual or auto E90 M3 (if I am going to have more than two seats I might as well have 5 and not the 4 the coupe has).

I did a bit of research and I don't think the m3 is a very reliable car. It seems like they have got the engine very highly strung and you really have to rag the sh*t out of it to get the performance. Otherwise you are getting done by fast diesels.

So I had worked out my spec for a BMW and was going to just wait for the right one to pop up. I wanted white or silver, red interior and the adjustable suspension. FSH and under 50k miles.

At that point I wanted to just make sure that I had made the right decision so I took another look at the rivals. VXR- looks fun but the interior is dog sh*t. Audi, na AWD just not for me. Lexus ISF- not for me. Mercedes, well actually they were only ruled out due to auto and I am now considering auto's so here is an option.

So it was a choice between the two. I reassured both cars alot and just felt that the Merc fitted my character more than an M. I chose the Merc because of 3 things:

Reliability, Sound and torque.

There is no doubt what what's been written the BMW is a better track car (I am never taking the car on track so not a consideration for me) the BMW has a better gear box (hands down).

But I think the Merc is more exciting. It's a German Muscle car that can go round corners that is 520 odd horse power with a map. The sound is amazing. It's like Thor throwing thunderbolts. The M3 sounds more exotic at high revs but the soundtrack especially with the rear cats removed (it's only loud when you mash the pedal. Normal driving it's hard to tell).

I then put together my wish list for a Merc. I wanted a PPP (performance Pack- uprated engine, brakes and suspension) FMBSH under 50k, LSD and mapped (the map was not a deal breaker- I could do it at a later date).

Found a guy who was looking to sell in the future and we agreed to meet after lockdown but I said to him if he ups his process can be give me 1st shout before he advertised and he said he would. He called me last week we had an hour chat about the car, it's history and the fact he wanted to sell so I went down ansnd bought it.

I think I would be happy with a M3 but this C63 is a monster. Anything more than 1/4 throttle in 1st will have the traction control on from a standing start in sport. It will shred tyres for fun and sounds like nothing else- I giggle like a school girl when I down shift.

Keep it in comfort and it will hunt for 7th gear as soon as it can and float around on torque. It literally can do anything.

 

[mgrlane]

Just because Mercedes
I've no real world experience of M cars but what I do know is every Merc I've ever sat in just feels more premium than any equivalent bmw model.. I know that M car fan's will probably say that's bollocks but it is just my opinion that Merc make better cars than BMW.. I'd take the c63 over an m3 every day of the week and twice on a Sunday

If it was 1993 I'd agree. Not anymore, my friend. Mercs are not built to the high standard they used to be.

As a driver's car, a Mercedes salesman summed it up for me a few years ago. He said a BMW will say to you "come on come on hurry up where we going come on", whereas a Mercedes will say "just one moment sir, I will be with you presently".

He had a point. Mercedes have never challenged BM's marketing as "the ultimate driving machine" have they?

It's interesting as Chris Harris said that he has ran that generation against each other all the time and the BMW won by a hairs length. He said at the end of one of the tests that he did that if the Merc he tested had an LSD in it- they were a 3k option that alot of people didn't spec for some reason then he would have given it to C63.

I just love cars me. I am not badge dependant. I wish I could drive them both back to back but my experience of the e92 is of a passenger and it was a fun car but as a passenger in the Merc I just knew I had to have one.

I think the BMW perhaps you have to drive it like you stole it and the Merc will entertain you at half throttle threading tires with minimal effort.

I think standard the M might be a faster point to point car? No idea on that but add a cheap and easy 50-70bhp onto the Merc then I am sue with a LSD and the breaks it would give the BMW a run for its money.

 

[Pondrew]

Mr mgrlane,
I'm not going to quote your very in-depth and interesting replies. I think we have a lot in common regarding cars which is why to me it is so interesting. All the points you raised when coming to the conclusion of buying the c63 are the reasons why I can't decide on what car to buy. Admittedly my purchase is not for transport; just for fun. I was set on buying either a 997 s2 or a 981s Porsche until I realised we would only have a Skoda as family transport 365 (cos both these are 2 seaters and so is the Z4), which seemed ridiculous.

I too have discounted the Audreys, they are powerful, yes. Beautifully built, yes. Driver's cars, NO.

I'm sorry but I still want to buy a car that I can drool over, as much as want to drive. I can't do that with a Mercedes. The noise is a big plus (but exhaust technology has come a bl00dy long way in a few years. Hell there is 2004 pile of sh*t Astra 5 door keeps driving past my house that sounds like a 21 gun salute). I really want to shoot that little f*cker.
I know it is subjective, as Mr Tourette alluded to, he just has a thing about Mercs. Fair play.

I have also got the finances in the front of my head; I will buy any of these cars cash and am planning on keeping a while. I would like to keep money loss to a minimum (I know any of them is going to lose money but would like to stem the flow a bit).

It's still got to be the M cars. If we were in a different time, I would have looked at them all and test drove hundreds but sadly we are not.

 

[mgrlane]

I get what you are saying I don't look at the C63 the same way I look at my Z4 coupe. If it's looks then I don't think I would look at a M3 the same way I look at my Z too.

I could be very wrong but I don't think that both the M3 or the C63 are going to drop much more? Not the good examples what do you think?

 

[mr.tourette]

Just because Mercedes
I've no real world experience of M cars but what I do know is every Merc I've ever sat in just feels more premium than any equivalent bmw model.. I know that M car fan's will probably say that's bollocks but it is just my opinion that Merc make better cars than BMW.. I'd take the c63 over an m3 every day of the week and twice on a Sunday

If it was 1993 I'd agree. Not anymore, my friend. Mercs are not built to the high standard they used to be.

As a driver's car, a Mercedes salesman summed it up for me a few years ago. He said a BMW will say to you "come on come on hurry up where we going come on", whereas a Mercedes will say "just one moment sir, I will be with you presently".

He had a point. Mercedes have never challenged BM's marketing as "the ultimate driving machine" have they?

This is the point I'm making about opinions.. I love my z4 but its the only bmw I'll ever own, there will be a few more mercs in my ownership before I pop my clogs. Maybe it's an age thing, 20 years ago you wouldn't have got me out of Japanese cars
I just think Merc as a brand and car builder make a better car and I'll take my real world experience of cars to form my own opinion over salesman patter and marketing bollocks any day. All that said my opinion is formed less about performance and more around perceived build quality, brand kudos and luxury car feel, if i really wanted an all out track/weekend toy car I'd probably be looking to a porker

 

[mgrlane]

I have been thinking about it this morning and I think perhaps:

The C63 to a M3 is similar to perhaps what a e86m is to a same era Cayman?

Having only been a passenger in two and driven 1 it's hard to form an opinion when a lot of it is based on what other people say.

 

[pvr]

I would look twice at a C63, not so much at an M3 though. And when you start the engine it is a whole different game again.

My X5M is about the same performance as my 911, but you can't beat that startup sound at a petrol station when the roof of the building is shaking 8) and you won't get that with an M3. It will be a similar case for the c63 as that engine sound is something else.

What would scare me with the c63 is the running costs and depreciation level, probably going hand in hand on why the depreciation is so high. The same applies to the Audi RS6 though.


Having said that, nothing can be as bad as a Land Rover Discovery I had which was my most expensive car - ever.

 

[mgrlane]

I would look twice at a C63, not so much at an M3 though. And when you start the engine it is a whole different game again.

My X5M is about the same performance as my 911, but you can't beat that startup sound at a petrol station when the roof of the building is shaking 8) and you won't get that with an M3. It will be a similar case for the c63 as that engine sound is something else.

What would scare me with the c63 is the running costs and depreciation level, probably going hand in hand on why the depreciation is so high. The same applies to the Audi RS6 though.


Having said that, nothing can be as bad as a Land Rover Discovery I had which was my most expensive car - ever.

Chap next door has a X5 (I think it's a 4.4 V8?). 4x4 are not for me but I do like to be outside for the smell and the sound when he starts it up.

Not to sure he feels the same way about an AMG cold start- I don't think I will ask.

From what I see with the AMG the facelift 2012 to 2014 seem to be holding their value. I think they were 60ish new and 9 years later I paid 24k for one with all the extra's with 50k miles on it, full MBSH. The prefacelift care is no where near as desirable (same engine but different interior and gearbox).

I assume the M3 was around the same new and the same saloon car is worth around the same?

I keep telling myself it's the last of the real V8's and it's at or near it's bounce point (makes me feel better). I think the BMW might appreciate quicker (because M).

If you look you can pick up a non turbo with the right extras and less mileage for around 30k which is more than you can buy the newer turbo model:

VS

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-search?sort=price-asc&postcode=ls236nh&radius=1500&make=MERCEDES-BENZ&model=C%20CLASS&include-delivery-option=on&year-from=2011&maximum-mileage=60000&body-type=Saloon&minimum-badge-engine-size=4.0&maximum-badge-engine-size=4.0

 

[Pondrew]

This is very interesting; as what is coming over here is people's "pre-conceived ideas" about car brands. We all have them I suppose, based on information we choose, or chose to take into account a long time ago. I am 53, when I was young and obsessed with cars, Mercs were seen by me to be expensive "managing director's" cars, or rich old men's cars. BMW to me was a premium brand but more "performance" orientated. I don't know where these conclusions came from but they do tend to stick with you and are hard to shake off.

This discussion, for me, isn't a "which is better, AMG or M", as each has their own opinion and I can see the attraction of the C63, if for no other reason than the noise, as we all want to be noticed really don't we? I too really want a V8; I've even looked at the Mustang GT!

As for justifying a purchase like this on predicted depreciation (which I am also doing so not criticising), without hindsight we will not know. If I was buying a car with minimal depreciation foremost, I would buy another house instead.

 

[pvr]

[ref]Pondrew[/ref], you are very right there. I have always been told by my wife that I was not "allowed" a Merc as that was an old man's car

I really like the look of an Alfa but reputation dictates that I could not have it, but not based on personal experience. Personal experience does however mean I would never buy any British car again due to the poor quality.

 

[inkey$]

Age and preconceived ideas (based on experience or not) is an interesting concept.

As a 48 year old Gen-X I grew up on a diet of Knight Rider and Cannonball Run. Posters of 80s supercars on my wall as a kid and as a teenager influenced by my mates and the cars they were buying - predominantly old VWs. Lusted after an 80's Scirocco of years, never owned one. Instead the early years of driving were budget related - Fiat Uno, Renault Clio, Nissan 100NX - until reaching an age with some disposable income and recommended BMW by a friend that had owned an old 5 series.

I tried looking at Mercs over the years. For me rightly or wrongly they always felt like an older persons car - bit like a Jag. I occasionally look at AMG's and always take a second look when one goes past me in the street. Maintaining my never-owned-one-cliches, Audi's look nice but have a bad driver reputation and Alfa's are pretty and apparently real drivers cars, but unreliable.

Now on my tenth BMW since that recommendation and the brand influence has also affected our family car via Mini. It's a circle difficult to step out of since my driving experience to date has been somewhat shaped by the vehicles around me. I love the engines, the familiarity of the switchgear, the foibles and my increasing knowledge across the decades, from E30 onwards.

Id like to at least try a newer Merc one day though. Am sure it would help break the circle!