No wonder Putin doesn't fear the West....

Seriously, though watch a bit of the RT news channel. I am in no way a supporter of the loony Russians, but they look at things from a less 'west' perspective and nothing is as simple as it seems. This, apparently, has been brewing for 8 years since the Crimean invasion (which IIRC was a footnote on the news for a couple of days).

Putin is not stupid, he picked his moment well. High energy prices in the West, Biden, even waited until the Olympics were over so as not to piss off the Chinese.
 
Putin may be mad but agree that he is anything but stupid. Timing has been everything and this has been planned since he managed to invade Crimea without much push back. Does make me wonder exactly how much planning has gone into this.

There was a lot of talk about Russia interfering with the US elections and everyone assumed his intentions were to help Trump. No idea if he did interfere but if he did, it certainly wasn't to help Trump. Perhaps the conspiracy theorists were looking for evidence to support their views in the wrong place?
 
sars said:
While sanctions on the oil rich oligarchs might be a long term solution, in general I have no faith that they will work at all, I mean just look at North Korea. The other thing China will buy all the oil that Russia can produce and sell them all the technology and equipment Russia needs :headbang:

I wish that Ukraine had had the ability, once they new that their borders had been crossed by the Russian military, to have launched an attack on all the Russian refineries and power stations, that’s the only way you can hurt them.
Agree and it wouldn't take too many well trained military to do the job on oil and gas depots. The IRA used to fit up a tranny van with a rocket launcher. Someone with a shoulder rocket launcher aimed at the front of the Kremlin would make him take notice.

The Ukrainians can't win but they could make things very painful for Putin
 
There is a lot more to this than is understood or even appreciated by the normal bloke on the street (as is very well represented here) for anyone who actually wants a bit of understanding, have a look at

Svoboda party
Azov Battalion
Maidan coup - 2014
The rise of neo-nazism in Ukraine post coup - 2014
Odessa Massacre - 2014
Repeal of the regional language policy - 2014
The Ukrainian shelling of Donbass region 2014 - 24/02/22
Minsk Protocol - 2014
Minsk II Protocol - 2015
Ukrainian Language quota law - 2016
Ukrainian Education Language law - 2017
Ukrainian State Language law - 2019
Lviv Oblast banning of Russian Language - 2019

Needless to say this isnt some snap decision by a "madman"
 
Flyingfifer said:
The Ukrainian shelling of Donbass region 2014

For sure, he got pissed in 1989 when he was a KGB officer in East Berlin when the wall came down..

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-32066222

Like all geo-political issues nothing is ever simple..

Is your implication that he's justified in what he's doing or that simply there was a lot of issues that help formulate his views?
 
Have you noticed how short he is compared to everyone else when he stands up. No. I'm not being shortist as I am only 5' 6" but I don't want to invade anywhere. Seems most madmen and dictators are short that's all.
 
B21 said:
Is your implication that he's justified in what he's doing or that simply there was a lot of issues that help formulate his views?

Justified? No, high is the bar of justification for war imo but the deliberate omission of a lot of context here especially around the actions that the west have taken/supported is grossly misrepresenting the realities of the situation which strips away any chance of understanding why we have ended up down this road but readily creates talking heads for the narrative.

6ba.png

This is also quite accurate...
meme_0.jpg
 
So you are saying that because the west have taken certain actions that with the benefit of hindsight were not maybe the best, that therefore the Ukrainians are getting their 'bashing' as an offset or attonement for the failures in decsion making of 'the west', NATO and the EU?
 
B21 said:
So you are saying that because the west have taken certain actions that with the benefit of hindsight were not maybe the best, that therefore the Ukrainians are getting their 'bashing' as an offset or attonement for the failures in decsion making of 'the west', NATO and the EU?

I appreciate that this is a personal one for you, I understand that.
I am not saying that the invasion is right or just or fair, no invasion really ever is. I'm saying that this outcome was avoidable (as invasions always are) and that no one in the west or east should be sitting on a moral perch above anyone else.
 
Flyingfifer said:
B21 said:
So you are saying that because the west have taken certain actions that with the benefit of hindsight were not maybe the best, that therefore the Ukrainians are getting their 'bashing' as an offset or attonement for the failures in decsion making of 'the west', NATO and the EU?

I appreciate that this is a personal one for you, I understand that.
I am not saying that the invasion is right or just or fair, no invasion really ever is. I'm saying that this outcome was avoidable (as invasions always are) and that no one in the west or east should be sitting on a moral perch above anyone else.

That’s understood, and I think we can agree that this is a complex situation…however there are concepts of proportionality, precedence and reasonable adherence to accept norms of international behaviour.

For the benefit of anyone still reading this ping pong….

Obviously as someone has seen these things played in slow motion and with regard to those states that were either part of the then USSR or Warsaw Pact…

It’s not unreasonable for a nation state that has existed in its current form for say 100 years to be able to determine its own destiny without direct military intervention or other overt interference from one of its neighbours?

It’s not unreasonable if a majority of that population determines how it should organise its laws and standards as long as it orientates itself / aligns with agreed international norms?

So ignoring the twists and turns is it valid for Russia to effectively annex a neighbour purely for its own self interest in direct opposition to the vast majority of that population and contrary to all international norms?

So more relevantly given the journey right or wrong that has taken place what is your recommended resolution, strategy or tactics?

Or could it be an assumption that your comments were defacto aimed at those on this forum who shoot from the hip, generalise, read the Daily Mail, listen to GB News, vote right of centre ? ( in some combination there off ?). :tumbleweed: :rofl: :fuelfire: :rofl: :poke: :rofl: :headbang:
 
B21 said:
Or could it be an assumption that your comments were defacto aimed at those on this forum who shoot from the hip, generalise, read the Daily Mail, listen to GB News, vote right of centre ? ( in some combination there off ?). :tumbleweed: :rofl: :fuelfire: :rofl: :poke: :rofl: :headbang:

This one :rofl:
 
Flyingfifer said:
I am not saying that the invasion is right or just or fair, no invasion really ever is. I'm saying that this outcome was avoidable (as invasions always are) and that no one in the west or east should be sitting on a moral perch above anyone else.
From what I have heard and read (ignoring the propaganda from both sides) I regretfully have to agree.
 
Nanu said:
What is wrong about reading the Daily Mail and listening to GB News?

I do both.
Absolutely nothing. We live in a free Country (at the moment). :thumbsup:
 
Flyingfifer said:
B21 said:
Or could it be an assumption that your comments were defacto aimed at those on this forum who shoot from the hip, generalise, read the Daily Mail, listen to GB News, vote right of centre ? ( in some combination there off ?). :tumbleweed: :rofl: :fuelfire: :rofl: :poke: :rofl: :headbang:

This one :rofl:

I see..you might say that..I might think that..I couldn’t possibly comment… :rofl: :fuelfire: :thumbsup:
 
Nanu said:
What is wrong about reading the Daily Mail and listening to GB News?

I do both.

Nothing at all Nanu....the mocking forget they don't get info from personal experience so themselves have to get it from somewhere.... their opinions are just that, their opinions...the rolling laughing just shows how narrow minded and uneducated they are. Sad really.
 
So, just to comment on the original post first.

Russia may have more ships and a large armed forces, but most of their ships are very old and really can’t compete with the American or British armed forces in terms of tech. They have a lot in development, but are miles behind the Americans.
Russia does fear nato otherwise it wouldn’t have made such a big deal of its expansion…would it? More likely putin was using this as an excuse for his expansion plans.

While the west has made many mistakes, putin is using the same excuses to invade countries as Hitler did….”we are liberating our people”.

Fact is that Ukraine and Russia signed a deal where Ukraine agreed to not join nato in return for non aggression. Putin has been planning this for a long time.
It isn’t going as smoothly as he hoped. The Ukrainians are fighting for their home and fight hard. They aren’t controlled by a dictator that they want liberation from.

The sanctions are already hitting hard and the Russia people aren’t particularly happy about this. My understanding is that there is little support from the people for this invasion.

Finally, I say all this and praise Ukraine for fighting back hard, and yes I do remember what Ukraine did to my people (the Jews) before and during the Holocaust. I am also very much aware of a strong far right antisemitic movement in the Ukraine. I believe the majority are good people though and Russia will end up with a bloody nose here.
Or this is the start of world war 3 and we should drive our zeds as much as possible before the world ends.
 
ori said:
So, just to comment on the original post first.

Russia may have more ships and a large armed forces, but most of their ships are very old and really can’t compete with the American or British armed forces in terms of tech. Trehey have a lot in development, but are miles behind the Americans.
Russia does fear nato otherwise it wouldn’t have made such a big deal of its expansion…would it? More likely putin was using this as an excuse for his expansion plans.

While the west has made many mistakes, putin is using the same excuses to invade countries as Hitler did….”we are liberating our people”.

Fact is that Ukraine and Russia signed a deal where Ukraine agreed to not join nato in return for non aggression. Putin has been planning this for a long time.
It isn’t going as smoothly as he hoped. The Ukrainians are fighting for their home and fight hard. They aren’t controlled by a dictator that they want liberation from.

The sanctions are already hitting hard and the Russia people aren’t particularly happy about this. My understanding is that there is little support from the people for this invasion.

Finally, I say all this and praise Ukraine for fighting back hard, and yes I do remember what Ukraine did to my people (the Jews) before and during the Holocaust. I am also very much aware of a strong far right antisemitic movement in the Ukraine. I believe the majority are good people though and Russia will end up with a bloody nose here.
Or this is the start of world war 3 and we should drive our zeds as much as possible before the world ends.


I agree,re the number of Troops,Ships etc doesn't make up the strength as a fighting force,hence why the UK is still the 8th strongest Military, despite a relatively low number of Troops etc compared to some other countries.

But having Millions of troops to call upon has helped Russia before,along with other factors like extreme cold,and Germany under estimating them,and being stretched elsewhere.(ww2).

The worry now ,as others like Ronk said,is his Nuclear weapons threat
Doesn't bare thinking about.

I think the peace talks are just a smoke screen by Putin, Or he expects Ukraine to give up some territory.
Don't think that is likely.

Also, Ukraine does have a problem with neo Nazis,as does Western Europe, unfortunately....
But they are still the minority,and For Innocent Civilians like Engineers,Teachers and Children,to be dying in Ukraine is awful.
All because Putin wants to Annex them into mother Russia again.

Or,to protect them,as he put it(meaning from Nato/the West, obviously).....
But as one Ukrainian office worker said ...
Who's he trying to protect us from, Ourselves??
We're not killing ourselves,he is.

All Ukraine wants is to be a Sovereign nation,and under self rule
They have voted in a,what looks like,half decent Prime Minister,even if he used to be a Stand up comic....but he definitely looks to be out visiting his troops etc,giving first hand morale support.
A stand up guy indeed.

Let's hope this all ends soon,and Putin's Russia collapses around him.
He'll be feeling the pressure from his Oligarch pals.
Priceless that Abramovich of Chelsea ownership fame,had to turn over the club to the board.
Man's a crook,like alot of Russian tycoons.
Never been a fan of him.

Anyway, hopefully Ukraine can repel Putin.
 
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