N52 hesitation, stuttering, jerking, surging etc

So here's the video of the rattle/knock I'm talking about that makes me think this is something to do with a lifter. Obviously the overwhelming sound is the injectors, but in the background there is a lower pitch rattle/knock that seems to be more pronounced when the camera is near the left/rear of the engine. Would be interesting what others think of this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjt2Sl9MzSk

[youtube]fjt2Sl9MzSk[/youtube]
 
Hmm. It's my intention to get my car up on the ramp and have a thorough look. I'm not mechanically minded but would like to learn. This wont happy for a few weeks however, work etc. If you learn anything, keep me informed. And vice versa from my end. :thumbsup:
 
juld0zer said:
I would say the sound in the video is more like the early signs of a DMF failing if yours is a manual?

You know what, this also crossed my mind. I used to have a similar noise on my Z4 when I turned the car off without pressing the clutch down. Equally if I pressed the clutch I believe the noise went away, but I don't think this car does that.

Weirdly I have read that an unbalanced flywheel can cause misfires, or what appear to be misfires. Would certainly explain why I don't have any codes. Though not sure it can explain overall hesitation.
 
my 2006 z4 3.0i N52 seems to have the same symptoms. rough idle at stops
N or park. hesitation on acceleration. it has new plugs and vanos solenoids. no real issues other than the hesitation and bad low searching idle rpm. I figured DISA valve so I got one on its way before I went out to look. I don't see either DISA valve unit that i thought i would find. in several online parts shops it shows the two disa valves as parts for my car. when I put in the vin the catalog. acts like they don't go in my 06 N52 engine intake.
lots i read seems to indicate often these symptoms are related to failed disa but if it is possible mine doesn't have disa valves what else is causing the symptoms.

it is an auto transmission car has 113xxx miles. starts fine drives great. accel and idle issues only. 3.0L engine. no leaks. old o2 sensors.
 
crhenkel said:
my 2006 z4 3.0i N52 seems to have the same symptoms. rough idle at stops
N or park. hesitation on acceleration. it has new plugs and vanos solenoids. no real issues other than the hesitation and bad low searching idle rpm. I figured DISA valve so I got one on its way before I went out to look. I don't see either DISA valve unit that i thought i would find. in several online parts shops it shows the two disa valves as parts for my car. when I put in the vin the catalog. acts like they don't go in my 06 N52 engine intake.
lots i read seems to indicate often these symptoms are related to failed disa but if it is possible mine doesn't have disa valves what else is causing the symptoms.

Be aware that you have the added variable of the auto box. In my research people have had similar symptoms before renewing the transmission fluid and filter and that kind of thing. Though that obviously doesn't explain rough idle.

As for the DISA valve, your car will have two. The 'Large DISA' is accessible and doesn't take much to remove and inspect. This thread outlines the process: https://z4-forum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=36349

The thread instructs you to remove the intake hose to get it out... If I remember correctly, I could remove it without doing that, but that's on my e91. The 'Small DISA' is on the inside of the intake manifold and cannot be accessed without removing the intake manifold, which is an unpleasant task to say the least. As mentioned, there are two DISA valves on this engine and they are different sizes, so be aware of that when ordering. Would certainly inspect them before dropping cash into either of them. Although my Large DISA was fine, parts of the rubber on the inner DISA had torn, so I replaced that one.
 
The lower frequency bassier 'dugga-dugga-dugga' noise feels to me, 100% like clutch thrust bearing. I have the same on mine and it does go away when the clutch is depressed.

...These engines are really starting to get on my tits...
 
crhenkel - can you post a photo of the throttle body area of your intake manifold?

Propaintballa - what size tyres are you running and how much tread do you have left on them? Do you still experience the hesitation with DTC on (one brief press)?
 
Capa said:
The lower frequency bassier 'dugga-dugga-dugga' noise feels to me, 100% like clutch thrust bearing. I have the same on mine and it does go away when the clutch is depressed.

...These engines are really starting to get on my tits...

Trust me, I feel your pain xD I checked again today, and my noise in the video stays the same whether the clutch is engaged or not :/

juld0zer said:
crhenkel - can you post a photo of the throttle body area of your intake manifold?

Propaintballa - what size tyres are you running and how much tread do you have left on them? Do you still experience the hesitation with DTC on (one brief press)?

They're staggered, 255/45/17 rear and 225/40/17 front, all runflats of same brand (pirelli). Rears are on minimum tread on the inside, others are all good. I did have the rear re-balanced when I first got the car because the car was vibrating through the seat at speed, could certainly do with the front too. As for DTC, same symptoms with it on or off.

I'm guessing you're thinking it's a traction issue, sadly this does not account for the rough idle or the surging during driving when constant throttle is applied :/ I did notice today that sometimes when I blip the throttle from idle, it drops a bit first, not every time though. I'm sure this is characteristic of a bad plug or coil. This would not make sense as they're all new, but I suppose I should re-check them at some point.
 
It drops a bit first... Isn't that vacuum?

I'll try to get a vid of my motor, just for the sake of comparison...
 
Capa said:
It drops a bit first... Isn't that vacuum?

I'll try to get a vid of my motor, just for the sake of comparison...

I suppose it could be... I haven't changed the valvetronic motor gasket, could need doing. Been meaning to create some kind of ghetto smoke tester to rule out a vacuum leak. What I did notice after doing my CCV was that when I removed the oil filler cap whilst the engine was running to test the vacuum, the engine would idle horribly and try to die, this did not happen before I changed the CCV, so not sure what that could indicate.
 
Yeah, I'm about there with you on that. I'm thinking some kind of oil filling syringe and a cigar is where I'm gonna go.

That's interesting to know in regards to CCV. When I take the oil cap off, there's obviously vacuum there, but the car doesn't try to martyr itself. I think changing the PCV is on the list, but given I've got an N52K it'd be a whole new rocker cover, and right now I can't really be arsed. Nor do I want to shell out £2-300 on the part.

I'm still sort of on the fence, considering whether I actually invest the money and try to fix it or go and part-ex it for something else currently. I think the noise on mine has now morphed into some kind of rattle and 'whoosh' noise between 1500-2500 rpm. Research is leading me to suspect the small DISA.

Yet more fun...
 
Propaintballa - I came up with a theory of false traction control intervention (throttle opening restricted and injection reduced) but I would have expected the skid light to be flashing at the same time. A few days later, the theory was proven false when the juddering returned and this time it is the worst it has ever been.

Pulled and inspected all NGK spark plugs which were fitted in January, nothing really stood out. Fitted another 6 donor coils from a known good set. Even replacing the bloody tank vent valve made no change to the juddering or the negative long term fuel trims. So i'm down $200. I also made a ground strap from the rocker cover to the strut tower as the existing one is corroded. No difference.

Compared actual vs setpoint MAF at idle, 1200 and 2000rpm and it was acceptable.
Did the same with VANOS, Valvetronic eccentric shaft position, throttle body and gas pedal, all was acceptable. I didn't scope anything, so there is still a chance of a high frequency jittery signal. This was all done using values in INPA which has a somewhat slow refresh rate.

I did make a discovery that turning on the AC restored acceleration and significantly reduced the judder around 1400-1900rpm. The flat spot is significantly reduced. I can induce the juddering by turning off the AC. On my Scanguage, I am currently monitoring load, throttle position, ignition timing and intake air temp. When the judder occurs, timing is being retarded. When the flatspot peaks, load is 99 and timing is very close to zero (TDC) or negative at the worst (after TDC). Is this a sign of false knock detection?

I have bit the bullet and ordered a DMF and clutch kit......
 
Capa said:
Yeah, I'm about there with you on that. I'm thinking some kind of oil filling syringe and a cigar is where I'm gonna go.

That's interesting to know in regards to CCV. When I take the oil cap off, there's obviously vacuum there, but the car doesn't try to martyr itself. I think changing the PCV is on the list, but given I've got an N52K it'd be a whole new rocker cover, and right now I can't really be arsed. Nor do I want to shell out £2-300 on the part.

I'm still sort of on the fence, considering whether I actually invest the money and try to fix it or go and part-ex it for something else currently. I think the noise on mine has now morphed into some kind of rattle and 'whoosh' noise between 1500-2500 rpm. Research is leading me to suspect the small DISA.

Yet more fun...

Exactly, that seems to circumvent the need for a pump and a standalone smoke container. That sucks with regard to the CCV. The bonus is, although it's expensive, it's certainly a lot easier to change than on the earlier N52! I've seen something like this for your application which might work: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/11127552281-BMW-Valve-cover-repair-kit-N51-N52-N52N-N52K-N52T-/172189766625
I suppose it depends on whether the PCV related bits in the valve cover are blocked and such.

Urm, if I was in your position again, I'd probably sell the car, although I'd struggle to find a suitable replacement. Obviously I thought each time I fixed something, it was going to be the fix of all fixes, and I'm still trying to track this s**t down! Rattle and whoosh is certainly odd, I think you're on the right lines with the small DISA :/

juld0zer said:
Propaintballa - I came up with a theory of false traction control intervention (throttle opening restricted and injection reduced) but I would have expected the skid light to be flashing at the same time. A few days later, the theory was proven false when the juddering returned and this time it is the worst it has ever been.

Pulled and inspected all NGK spark plugs which were fitted in January, nothing really stood out. Fitted another 6 donor coils from a known good set. Even replacing the bloody tank vent valve made no change to the juddering or the negative long term fuel trims. So i'm down $200. I also made a ground strap from the rocker cover to the strut tower as the existing one is corroded. No difference.

Compared actual vs setpoint MAF at idle, 1200 and 2000rpm and it was acceptable.
Did the same with VANOS, Valvetronic eccentric shaft position, throttle body and gas pedal, all was acceptable. I didn't scope anything, so there is still a chance of a high frequency jittery signal. This was all done using values in INPA which has a somewhat slow refresh rate.

I did make a discovery that turning on the AC restored acceleration and significantly reduced the judder around 1400-1900rpm. The flat spot is significantly reduced. I can induce the juddering by turning off the AC. On my Scanguage, I am currently monitoring load, throttle position, ignition timing and intake air temp. When the judder occurs, timing is being retarded. When the flatspot peaks, load is 99 and timing is very close to zero (TDC) or negative at the worst (after TDC). Is this a sign of false knock detection?

I have bit the bullet and ordered a DMF and clutch kit......

Interesting findings, and odd that your A/C being on reduced the symptoms, mine stay the same. The most interesting though is your observation of the timing, which fits in part with my thoughts on this. Not that I've experienced a proven example of this, but for me, the judder feels like an engine that is not timed correctly. It feels like I am keeping the pedal at the same position but gradually the car slows down as it's juddering. I also feel like my rough idle would be characteristic of engine knock, as it's not a consistent misfire, but more like a shiver.

The sick thing is, this could still be several things. It could be the absolute nightmare scenario of cam bearing ledge wear affecting oil pressure that in turn means the timing is incorrect for the engine speed. I think this could still be a factor, even if performance in the higher rev range is fine due to higher oil pressure? I don't know :/ Seeing as that's quite rare I feel like logically, based on fuel trims being quite far out, that this is a fuel/air metering issue. So MAF, MAP, Knock, 02 sensors or vacuum leak. I'd lean more towards a sensor issue seeing as we have very similar symptoms and the range in which it occurs.

I believe BMW rate the 02 sensors for 100k miles and my car is knocking on the door of that figure... The problem is, they are expensive, and there are 4 of them... The other thing is the cam position sensors. The problem I have is that usually when these kind of issues occur, there are codes, hell, there are usually codes for vacuum leaks causing lean conditions and stuff, but nothing here! :headbang:

As for your DMF and clutch... I'd be interested to see what happens here and whether actually this weird misfire-type behaviour is due to some weird flywheel imbalance. Probably clutching (lol) at straws here.
 
Capa said:
I think changing the PCV is on the list, but given I've got an N52K it'd be a whole new rocker cover, and right now I can't really be arsed. Nor do I want to shell out £2-300 on the part.

The ccv is serviceable on the n52k.... see here:
https://z4-forum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=105709&hilit=Ccv&start=45
 
From your symptoms, I'd say your cause is not the same as mine. I don't think it is a base valve timing issue but perhaps VANOS? When your motor judders and the car slows down despite the same pedal poaition, that is the ignition timing being retarded. It might be worth getting one of those ebay OBD dongles and a suitable app for your phone to watch some basic live data to verify. But that is what mine does. Mashing the pedal further results in a big fat frown. Knock (pinging) usually occurs under load and not idle though.

To diagnose the cam bearing ledge electronically, you'd need something that can access the BMW specific live data from the DME. A basic scanner probably won't show what you need. INPA will do it. This fault usually sets VANOS adjustment error codes and watching the live data of actual vs setpoint angles will give you a good idea of what's happening inside.

I dare say the flywheel issue may just be exacerbated by the actual cause which I may have stumbled across this afternoon.

Does your engine have one of those noisemaker boxes near the firewall?
 
juld0zer said:
From your symptoms, I'd say your cause is not the same as mine. I don't think it is a base valve timing issue but perhaps VANOS? When your motor judders and the car slows down despite the same pedal poaition, that is the ignition timing being retarded. It might be worth getting one of those ebay OBD dongles and a suitable app for your phone to watch some basic live data to verify. But that is what mine does. Mashing the pedal further results in a big fat frown. Knock (pinging) usually occurs under load and not idle though.

To diagnose the cam bearing ledge electronically, you'd need something that can access the BMW specific live data from the DME. A basic scanner probably won't show what you need. INPA will do it. This fault usually sets VANOS adjustment error codes and watching the live data of actual vs setpoint angles will give you a good idea of what's happening inside.

I dare say the flywheel issue may just be exacerbated by the actual cause which I may have stumbled across this afternoon.

Does your engine have one of those noisemaker boxes near the firewall?

I have to admit, I have problems with this car and the generic readers. I've got an ELM327 bluetooth adapter, but the data it can read is limited to the point where I can only watch the pre-cat o2 sensors and not post-cat. I have a BMW specific standalone reader which is good for codes and some other bits, but again, pretty limited, usually in the same ways. I have INPA with the cable, but in recent weeks I have had problems with something crashing which occurs usually after only a few minutes, if that.

What live data would you look at the determine whether the ignition timing is changing? I haven't seen anything of the sort on the couple of apps I have (Torque lite and "Car scanner"). I have screenshots on an earlier page of this thread of my VANOS screen from INPA.

Yeah that's the thing, I am pretty certain I need a/new engine mount/s, which makes the issue feel worse, but certainly wouldn't solve the problem. Mine doesn't have the noise box thing like on the Z4... Do you think you have a vacuum leak there?
 
With the ELM adapters, I believe it comes down to what your software can access from the DME. I don't have one so INPA (in German) and Scanguage is all I have. INPA can display stuff that ISTA can't, or at least it will be easier to see. Ideally you'd want to be able to safely drive and watch the data so an assistant may be required to either drive or watch the data.

Pre cat sensors are more important than post cat for the purposes of irregular running diagnosis. They are the ones which control the air/fuel mix. A healthy cat will always produce a good, stable reading at the post cat sensors.

The PID you want may be under ignition advance or something to that effect. In ISTA it is under spark advance in the DME control unit functions. In INPA it is in the SAE J1979 tab, at the bottom of the left column "Zundzeitpunkt zylinder 1".

You'd also want to be monitoring load versus spark advance. Once the load is 99%, the DME stops increasing fuel and the flat spot starts, timing gets pulled and eventually goes to 0* advance and possibly retard further. I'm not sure what load I am seeing on the Scanguage (calculated or absolute) but it seems to reference air intake/manifold vacuum - see this link for more clarification: http://obdcon.sourceforge.net/2010/06/about-pid-calculated-load-value/

I've not smoke tested my car as it does not feel like an unmetered air problem. The reason I asked about the noise maker box is because I started to look into false knocking/pinging. The noise maker is on the intake side of the block, which is the side where the two knock sensors are mountes. Thumping the airbox would cause the trumpet end to rattle loudly so i yanked it off and guess what? No more total flat spot! I am proposing that our engine must be producing a certain vibration in the 1400-1900rpm range that will shake anything loose and create a noise that is mistaken by the knock sensors.

The plastic coolant crossover pipe on top of the radiator also rattles when i thump the Y snorkel, as does the BMW ornamental cover on the intake manifold. I've isolated them using high density foam. So far, so good. AC is off, DTC is not on (regular DSC enabled), tyre pressures set to mimic original rolling radius of the original rim/tyre combo.
 
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