More incidents in London...

[ESP]

Q: Where you are going to deport a British born radicalised convert to?
Q: Bearing in mind most planned attacks thwarted by the security agencies were as a result of information from the Muslim community, what's the benefit or expected outcome of attacking and stigmatising the decent majority?

1. Their origins, you could be born here, but your origins are still wherever your relatives are from. The Manchester bomber could have gone back to Libya.
2. Information is one thing, acting upon it is another. If the person is interviewed, he/she should not be monitored like is happening now - action should be taken quicker. Spout any nonsense in public - get them removed straight away, don't way until after an event. With the Irish troubles, any Irish person in the UK was treated with suspicion (including my father in law). He always took it fine whenever stopped as that is what he expected being part of that community. The price you pay for living in another country.

Are you for real??
Seriously?

How about less nonsense paranoia chat, and more getting on with Life, the life recent terrorists want to thwart.
Can you truly stop someone motivated enough? f**k em.

 

[benv6]

I used to have that philosophy too. But it changed markedly on Sep 11 2001 when I experienced the population of Nelson, a seemingly moderate Muslim community celebrating the terrorist attacks in the US it was like a bloody street festival! Letting off fireworks, driving around in the cars and beeping and waving the pakistan flag! I was outraged and felt totally betrayed.
That's when I decided to sell my house over the other side of the M65 in Barrowford. I saw Nelson change from a seemingly half and half mixed asian and white town turn into an almost exclusively asian community.
I'd like to think we could all get on I really do. The world doesnt need hate, terror or assertive religions and i genuinely feel sad and a bit ashamed when i look at an asian guy who might have a beard and a backpack and not start to look at him suspiciously but thats the emerging world we're living in sadly.

So you said "you think we could all get on" but the sentence before say you moved because your area now has more asians. I'm half white/black it wasn't so long ago being a kid I remember the anti black racists, then it was eastern european now its muslim's. Seriously this is why there's so much social divide in certain parts of UK people with these thoughts to begin with. Lots of muslims everywhere I walk I don't feel scared of a man with a back pack and a beard get a life man will ya.

These people doing this are a minority of murdering terrorist living in our community.

When you recognise that when a large and clearly identifiable section of the community in the next town is celebrating the murder of 1000's of people that day and you don't understand why theyre celebrating I'm afraid you can't help but feel isolated, threatened and scared. That's why I and many others decided to move away.

I know all about racism. My best mate growing up was from India and we both endured beatings and abuse. Him cos he was the only brown kid in town and me because I hung out with him.

I don't doubt it's a minority acting out these subhuman acts of terror but the problem we face as a society is identifying and distinguishing radicalised muslims from moderate non-radicalised muslims.

Chris .. Racists are usually idiots and you are a RACIST.. Like it or not!!!
What you saying is complete BU****T. …You are just making up stories. No one was dancing in UK streets on 9/11 (that was in Israel/Palestine)
And please stop repeating that you had an Indian or a Black Friend (1), it is an old and an overused saying used by racists!!
I do agree 100% with what Goldie said; it is your likes that create divisions within communities with your venomous ideas.
If you get scared or feel intimidated walking down brown or Black neighbourhoods then you should just MAN up because I haven’t got this problem at all and I am WHITE.
If it was up to me I would happily throw you and your likes (Trump, Katie Hopkins, EDL BNP VS Terrorist ) in an isolated Island and arm you to the teeth, Both of you because you are the same breed, both of you love to hate.
How can you blame and insult millions of people for the acts of a handful is beyond me, I can only tell that you are a horrible creature (Same mind set as the terrorists)
My heart goes to the bereaved ones and for the most beautiful city on planet earth with all its colours WHITE BROWN BLACK AND GERY – exactly what makes it great.

 

[PerryGunn]

Playing Devil's Advocate here... (and keeping my own opinions out of this)

When there's an incident the majority voice always seems to be that the Intelligence Agencies should know more about what 'these people' are up to...

However, there's uproar from the 'Human Rights' brigade every time there's talk of watering down Civil Liberties, and other voices complain loudly about 'Big Brother' when addressing the subject of adding back-doors to encryption protocols to allow the Intelligence Agencies to keep a closer watch on communications...

Any changes to the rules have to apply to everyone as you don't necessarily know who the potential terrorists are until after you've started the monitoring process and full monitoring will likely lead to more 'threats' being detected at an early stage.

The more controls and oversight you put in place, the less privacy and 'freedom' we, the general population, have... are we ready to live in a more controlled society if that's the price of feeling/being more secure... or do we regard this as a step towards a police state...?

Why everyone? We have a defined slice of the population.

Again, with my 'Devil's Advocate' hat on...

If you start to remove Civil Liberties from a 'defined slice of the population', with the 'defined slice' based upon their ethnic origin, is that any different in substance from some of the anti-Jewish legislation passed in Nazi Germany in the mid-to-late '30s...? e.g. The de-naturalisation Law revoking the citizenship of naturalised Jews and 'undesirables', or the Reich Interior Ministry forbidding Jews to keep carrier pigeons (i.e. trying to stop 'unmonitored' communications)

I'm sure anything along those lines that could be seen as being targeted against a specific ethnic group would be met with resistance by the population as a whole. The only way you could make these changes, and have general acceptance of them, is if they affected everyone equally

 

[pvr]

But do you think there would be concerns about the reduced liberties of 30k identified people by the security services by the populous in general ?

In the example of one of those people from saturday in London, he was made known to the authorities by many people so it seems, including being on TV. That to me makes you a perfect candidate for reduced civil liberties.

 

[ranski]

While browsing through the forum I see pictures of everyone's shinny cars on their nice, well kept drives and think to myself, if i parachuted you and your family into Birmingham's Sparkhill or some similar London East End suburb, after a month, or even a few days would you still disagree there are people or whole communities who don't wish to integrate, and actually prefer the division? Or are they simply being left behind in terms of wealth and social standing?

Just curious.

 

[PerryGunn]

But do you think there would be concerns about the reduced liberties of 30k identified people by the security services by the populous in general ?

Als die Nazis die Kommunisten holten,
habe ich geschwiegen;
ich war ja kein Kommunist.

Als sie die Sozialdemokraten einsperrten,
habe ich geschwiegen;
ich war ja kein Sozialdemokrat.

Als sie die Gewerkschafter holten,
habe ich nicht protestiert;
ich war ja kein Gewerkschafter.

Als sie die Juden holten,
habe ich geschwiegen;
ich war ja kein Jude.

Als sie mich holten,
gab es keinen mehr, der protestierte.

Martin Niemöller

 

[benv6]

While browsing through the forum I see pictures of everyone's shinny cars on their nice, well kept drives and think to myself, if i parachuted you and your family into Birmingham's Sparkhill or some similar London East End suburb, after a month, or even a few days would you still disagree there are people or whole communities who don't wish to integrate, and actually prefer the division? Or are they simply being left behind in terms of wealth and social standing?

Just curious.

Very Interesting ! Unfortunately there is no simple answer, a book can be written not to answer you but just to give you an opinion.

Your question is simple grammatically but very complex socially, I guess my short answer would be that we are still evolving as "Intelligent" creatures !!! And we still have a long way to go !!

 

[Ewazix]

............... As soon as the HR law has been repealed after Brexit, they can be shipped back to their country of their roots (Abu Hamza type cases).

It's a common misconception in the media (and spouted by some ill informed or mischievous politicians) that the EU and the European Court of Human Rights (Strasbourg) are of the same body it's not, or that leaving the EU means leaving the jurisdiction of the European Court of Human Rights, it doesn't, they are separate and independent of each other, leaving the EU does not mean leaving ECHR.

The European Court of Human Rights was set up after WW2 and heavily drafted by British lawyers and representatives of allied freedom fighters fresh from the Nuremberg trials, to guard against nations slipping in to suppression and atrocities like the Nazi regime. It is made up of the 47 members of the Council of Europe, only 28 of which are members of the European Union. The confusion is caused by the fact that they both have the word 'European' in the name and to be a member of the EU you must be in the Council of Europe and abide by rulings from Strasbourg.

If anybody voted for Brexit in the belief that means we leave ECHR behind I very much doubt that is ever going to happen (It was a UK led project). People in the UK will still have the right to determinations from the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg via the UK Supreme Court (which is bound by ECHR)

So, anti ECHR Brexiteers were sold a dud, in my view deliberately.

 

[benv6]

............... As soon as the HR law has been repealed after Brexit, they can be shipped back to their country of their roots (Abu Hamza type cases).

It's a common misconception in the media (and spouted by some ill informed or mischievous politicians) that the EU and the European Court of Human Rights (Strasbourg) are of the same body it's not, or that leaving the EU means leaving the jurisdiction of the European Court of Human Rights, it doesn't, they are separate and independent of each other, leaving the EU does not mean leaving ECHR.

The European Court of Human Rights was set up after WW2 and heavily drafted by British lawyers and representatives of allied freedom fighters fresh from the Nuremberg trials, to guard against nations slipping in to suppression and atrocities like the Nazi regime. It is made up of the 47 members of the Council of Europe, only 28 of which are members of the European Union. The confusion is caused by the fact that they both have the word 'European' in the name and to be a member of the EU you must be in the Council of Europe and abide by rulings from Strasbourg.

If anybody voted for Brexit in the belief that means we leave ECHR behind I very much doubt that is ever going to happen (It was a UK led project). People in the UK will still have the right to determinations from the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg via the UK Supreme Court (which is bound by ECHR)

So, anti ECHR Brexiteers were sold a dud, in my view deliberately.

A Very good post, Thank you PVR!

 

[pvr]

I would like to take the credit for it, but it was Ewazix who wrote that true statement ...

 

[Chris_D]

So you said "you think we could all get on" but the sentence before say you moved because your area now has more asians. I'm half white/black it wasn't so long ago being a kid I remember the anti black racists, then it was eastern european now its muslim's. Seriously this is why there's so much social divide in certain parts of UK people with these thoughts to begin with. Lots of muslims everywhere I walk I don't feel scared of a man with a back pack and a beard get a life man will ya.

These people doing this are a minority of murdering terrorist living in our community.

When you recognise that when a large and clearly identifiable section of the community in the next town is celebrating the murder of 1000's of people that day and you don't understand why theyre celebrating I'm afraid you can't help but feel isolated, threatened and scared. That's why I and many others decided to move away.

I know all about racism. My best mate growing up was from India and we both endured beatings and abuse. Him cos he was the only brown kid in town and me because I hung out with him.

I don't doubt it's a minority acting out these subhuman acts of terror but the problem we face as a society is identifying and distinguishing radicalised muslims from moderate non-radicalised muslims.

Chris .. Racists are usually idiots and you are a RACIST.. Like it or not!!!
What you saying is complete BU****T. …You are just making up stories. No one was dancing in UK streets on 9/11 (that was in Israel/Palestine)
And please stop repeating that you had an Indian or a Black Friend (1), it is an old and an overused saying used by racists!!
I do agree 100% with what Goldie said; it is your likes that create divisions within communities with your venomous ideas.
If you get scared or feel intimidated walking down brown or Black neighbourhoods then you should just MAN up because I haven’t got this problem at all and I am WHITE.
If it was up to me I would happily throw you and your likes (Trump, Katie Hopkins, EDL BNP VS Terrorist ) in an isolated Island and arm you to the teeth, Both of you because you are the same breed, both of you love to hate.
How can you blame and insult millions of people for the acts of a handful is beyond me, I can only tell that you are a horrible creature (Same mind set as the terrorists)
My heart goes to the bereaved ones and for the most beautiful city on planet earth with all its colours WHITE BROWN BLACK AND GERY – exactly what makes it great.

Haha sensitive much?
Calm down u fkin drama queen. Whatever.

 

[Ewazix]

I'm not an IT tech'y and don't know the answer to this, back on P1 I posed a question and I'm wondering if any of the IT gurus know the answer. How is it the tech boffins in the most advanced nations on earth can't shut down extremist material on the web? It seems not much unwanted material get through in China for example and kids in their bedroom can launch ddos attacks bringing down corporation websites or infiltrate the FBI, Sky have buttoned down pirate broadcasting of it's premium content on the web :x so I'm puzzled as to why 'we' aren't doing more? :?

 

[z4pilot]

But do you think there would be concerns about the reduced liberties of 30k identified people by the security services by the populous in general ?

In the example of one of those people from saturday in London, he was made known to the authorities by many people so it seems, including being on TV. That to me makes you a perfect candidate for reduced civil liberties.

Once you start with this sort of logic though, you are on a very slippery slope - where does it end? Do you remove the vote from some people because they're too stupid to have an opinion? Do you segregate communities on the basis of colour or religion? Do you practice eugenics for the good of the population in general? Would you prefer to live in a totalitarian regime along the lines of China or North Korea? Or perhaps you might think that the Nazis didn't have it all wrong?

Unfortunately the atrocities we have seen perpetrated by sick individuals are part of the price we pay for living in a free society. At an individual level, every life lost is an absolute tragedy, and any sane person can barely imagine what the victims and their families are going through - but at a society level, we must hold true to our ideals and carry on. I believe Winston Churchill said "If you are going through hell.... Keep going"

 

[TitanTim]

I think for me civil liberties has to take a bit of a back seat now. I understand not all of these idiots are known to the police but many are including the scum who carried out Saturdays attacks. Surely those known people should be tagged and movements limited. It has to be a start and agree internet service providers could do more to expose terrorist networks hiding on the net.

Tim.

 

[1000rr]

Internment. Pure and simple, jail the jihadis that where born here, deport others who aren't. :x :x :x

 

[Anonymous]

I'm not an IT tech'y and don't know the answer to this, back on P1 I posed a question and I'm wondering if any of the IT gurus know the answer. How is it the tech boffins in the most advanced nations on earth can't shut down extremist material on the web? It seems not much unwanted material get through in China for example and kids in their bedroom can launch ddos attacks bringing down corporation websites or infiltrate the FBI, Sky have buttoned down pirate broadcasting of it's premium content on the web :x so I'm puzzled as to why 'we' aren't doing more? :?

If some one was paying to have it done then it would be, in a heartbeat,,,,,or less.
Sky and the rest of them money talks, as for anything else,, no chance.
If you want 24hr fake news that"s ok because it brings in advertising = money

 

[z4pilot]

Internment. Pure and simple, jail the jihadis that where born here, deport others who aren't. :x :x :x

It doesn't work though. Didn't work in the 70's when we interned suspected IRA members without trial and it hasn't worked in Guantanamo. All you do is take a few suspected high risk individuals off the street and inspire more to join the cause.

 

[1000rr]

Internment. Pure and simple, jail the jihadis that where born here, deport others who aren't. :x :x :x

It doesn't work though. Didn't work in the 70's when we interned suspected IRA members without trial and it hasn't worked in Guantanamo. All you do is take a few suspected high risk individuals off the street and inspire more to join the cause.

Better off the streets and not interacting through communications via internet etc, than on the streets.

 

[dans6490]

The people who follow this ideology are somehow allowed to preach on the streets of the UK, they are allowed to have protest marches in towns and cities WITH police protection.

Saudi based 'wahabi' clerics are allowed to preach freely in our universities and schools.

Allowing people to preach, against our values, our way of life and our beliefs in our own country is quite frankly ridiculous.

The do-gooders, race card waivers and tree huggers have everyone too scared to speak up but the reality is that most people were fed up/angry/astonished at this situation years ago but were either too afraid to speak up or not listened to.

The minority that follow this ideology need special laws, rules and treatment.

We've tried softly softly but IMO, these creatures have ran out of chances.

Lee Rigby should have been the wake up call but sadly, too many people thought that hoping it would all go away was enough.

 

[z4pilot]

Internment. Pure and simple, jail the jihadis that where born here, deport others who aren't. :x :x :x

It doesn't work though. Didn't work in the 70's when we interned suspected IRA members without trial and it hasn't worked in Guantanamo. All you do is take a few suspected high risk individuals off the street and inspire more to join the cause.

Better off the streets and not interacting through communications via internet etc, than on the streets.

It's just a (very) short term respite though - I'm no bleeding heart liberal, but I can't think of one example where forced internment has killed off an idea or an ideology. How many Palestinians do you think the Israelis have banged up at the moment? I've not a clue, but it hasn't stopped any of the problems over there has it? We need to come up with better ideas than those that will just reinforce prejudices and entrench attitudes and behaviours....