Michelin pilot super sports
- Thread starter pilchardthecat
- Start date
I've just returned from 2 days at The Ring with my Z4MC which was shod with the OEM Contis, and being objective, I have to say that for a road tyre they performed very well and they can be pushed way harder than you can ever realistically do on public roads. However, at The Ring the Z4MC's OEM tyres are the limiting factor of the car, because of the very high speeds that you can reach and the Contis are outclassed by trackday tyres.
A question to those who've experience of trackday tyres on their Z4Ms: how do the Michelin PSS compare against the likes of Toyo r888 or Yokohama Advan Neova AD08?
A question to those who've experience of trackday tyres on their Z4Ms: how do the Michelin PSS compare against the likes of Toyo r888 or Yokohama Advan Neova AD08?
Liverpool
This has just reminded me that I took some of mine and forgot to post them (mainly due to fixing someone else's pictures for them 
).
Not had any experience of anything other than the Conti M3s and the PSS on the Z4 - but whilst the M3s were slower around the 'Ring, they were more fun as they slid around a fair bit more than the PSSs.
I've chased a few of the RentRacecar.de 3.0 Z4Cs shod with R888s and they don't hang about - but then I've also chased/passed the Rent4Ring Artegas - so it may be down to drivers rather than tyres
Yes, I know it's filthy, but it had just done 200 miles down to London, in the grimy rain, with spray and was sat in that carpark for 2 days.
).Not had any experience of anything other than the Conti M3s and the PSS on the Z4 - but whilst the M3s were slower around the 'Ring, they were more fun as they slid around a fair bit more than the PSSs.
I've chased a few of the RentRacecar.de 3.0 Z4Cs shod with R888s and they don't hang about - but then I've also chased/passed the Rent4Ring Artegas - so it may be down to drivers rather than tyres
Yes, I know it's filthy, but it had just done 200 miles down to London, in the grimy rain, with spray and was sat in that carpark for 2 days.
exdos said:
I've a lot of experience with track day tyres on other cars, but on the Z4M I have really only driven on PSS and Avon ZZ-R. At the 'ring this week I was on the Avons which are a proper R compound semi slick.
Generally I would say that the very best track day tyre I have used is the Michelin Pilot Sport Cup, but it is also the most expensive. After that I would place the Yoko A048 and then the R888. As an aside the AD08 isn't really a track tyre, more of a PSS competitor. (I don't feel I can properly rate the ZZ-R yet as I don't have enough experience with it, but it's probably right up with the MPSC.)
I would expect the R888 to be pretty easy to overheat on a car as heavy as the M. Worth thinking about the Kumho V70A in Hard compound though I haven't used them myself. I was very pleased with the Avons but you have to downsize the front to 225/40/18.
Finally regarding the difference between the PSS and an R compound tyre, the R tyre is ultimately faster but you would have to be bloody brave to exceed the limits of the PSS and I suspect for most mortals at the ring there would not be much in it.
Also I would say that I feel that imade a big mistake leaving DSC on, whilst running the Avons - I think I have nearly broken something important - either the diff or a driveshaft seems fubar'd. It got me home but only just.
I also like driving road tyres at their limits around The Ring where you can really experience what "slip angle" is all about, and it's great fun. I've heard from others that R compound tyres actually spoil the fun so I've been reluctant to move on to them so far.mmm-five said:Not had any experience of anything other than the Conti M3s and the PSS on the Z4 - but whilst the M3s were slower around the 'Ring, they were more fun as they slid around a fair bit more than the PSSs.
I've chased a few of the RentRacecar.de 3.0 Z4Cs shod with R888s and they don't hang about - but then I've also chased/passed the Rent4Ring Artegas - so it may be down to drivers rather than tyres
I used to attend the annual BMW Internationalen Fahrerlehrgang, (3 day closed event on the NS) and I could hold my own in my Z3MC with mainly BMWs on track, so road tyres were appropriate. When the management difficulties at The Ring occurred in 2011, the event ceased, so I've since done a couple of other closed events at The Ring.
At these latest closed trackday events at The Ring, I find I'm having to shift out of the way too often (for my own safety) from all the Porsches, Aston Martins, Ferraris, stripped-out track specials and racecars etc. that turn up, which are shod with R compound tyres. So I'm thinking that I need to move on to a much better tyre because the goalposts have been shifted.
With regards to my Contis, the tyre temperatures after parking up after a few laps were fronts: 43-49 degs C and rears: 52-59 degs C. Using the pressures shown on the car's door frame I found that at these temperatures the pressures were F: 2.35 bar and R: 2.55 bar and the tyres were chirping and sliding a lot. When I reduced the pressures when hot to F: 2.1 bar and R: 2.2 bar the tyres stopped chirping and the grip increased - the next morning, when the tyres were cold, the pressures showed as 2 bar F&R. I've since kept the tyres at those pressures and the car drives better both on track and on the road and I shall now permanently keep them at 2 bar cold.
tertius said:
Dan,
Great to meet you at DN8 and enjoy a part lap with you.
Had I known at the time what you've just told me there I don't think I would've dared attempted to follow you! From memory, I kept with you up to somewhere around the Karussell until I slowed to let a couple of Porsches past (as described above) from then on it was a lost cause. When we returned to the car-park I was shocked to see you were on those Avons! 
I can only attribute the fact that I could live with you for so long on Avons was entirely down to the fact that my car was equipped with my ramcharger II mod and that I was able to gain any lost ground around the corners on the straighter bits. I've never previously had to use the brakes so much on my Z3MC as I did with my Z4MC this time because my Z4MC is way quicker than that car. I had one very scary moment when I kept on the power all the way up Döttinger Höhe to beyond the bridge on a flying lap and on the slight left bend I caught a bump (when the tyre pressures were too high) and the rear came down not quite in line : I wasn't so brave up there after that. 
Thanks for your comments on the different tyres - very helpful. I was chatting with the Swedish lad with that silver MX5 that was flying around (I've never previously seen a MX5 driven like it!) and he rated the Kumho V70A as the best tyre.
From what you say about the difference between the PSS and the R compound tyre, I think that combined with the fact that it is also a road tyre, that would appear to be the way for me to go and confirms mmm-five's resounding endorsement of the tyre.
I also kept the DSC on all the time and I found its action was undetectable to me although the orange light was flashing quite regularly. On my Z3MC, when the DSC cuts in, it also cuts the throttle for maybe upto 0.5secs, which can be very irritating, but on the Z4MC I never experienced any loss of throttle response when the DSC light was flashing and I was able to modulate the throttle whilst the DSC was doing its magic. Sorry to hear you think the use of DSC has caused you a mechanical problem and I hope it's a relatively cheap fix.
Were you on OEM brakes or a BBK? I was OEM with Yellowstuff pads, braided hoses, Dot 5.1 fluid, solid caliper bushings in the front and brake cooling ducting and the brakes operated fine throughout despite my relatively heavy use of them.
Hope to see you at The Ring again.
tertius said:
I've got AD08 on my car but i've not tried the PSS.. The only thing i can say is that in all group tests i've read that feature the AD08 it's hailed as the fastest "street tyre" on the track. Of course you might argue that R-Comps are "street tyres" as well. Anyway there's one comparison done by Car And Driver that tested both the AD08 and PSS and they said that even though the AD08s were the fastest on track the PSS was the overall winner as it's a much more rounded performer. (the Yokohamas did abysmally bad in the wet). http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/yokohama-advan-neova-ad08-page-8
If i ever get a spare set of wheels though i wont be going back to the AD08s, i'll have a good road tyre for daily use and a good set of R-Comps on the track wheels, but for MY particular use, at the moment i love the AD08s.
exdos said:Dan,
Great to meet you at DN8 and enjoy a part lap with you.
Thanks for your comments on the different tyres - very helpful. I was chatting with the Swedish lad with that silver MX5 that was flying around (I've never previously seen a MX5 driven like it!) and he rated the Kumho V70A as the best tyre.
From what you say about the difference between the PSS and the R compound tyre, I think that combined with the fact that it is also a road tyre, that would appear to be the way for me to go and confirms mmm-five's resounding endorsement of the tyre.
I also kept the DSC on all the time and I found its action was undetectable to me although the orange light was flashing quite regularly. On my Z3MC, when the DSC cuts in, it also cuts the throttle for maybe upto 0.5secs, which can be very irritating, but on the Z4MC I never experienced any loss of throttle response when the DSC light was flashing and I was able to modulate the throttle whilst the DSC was doing its magic. Sorry to hear you think the use of DSC has caused you a mechanical problem and I hope it's a relatively cheap fix.
Were you on OEM brakes or a BBK? I was OEM with Yellowstuff pads, braided hoses, Dot 5.1 fluid, solid caliper bushings in the front and brake cooling ducting and the brakes operated fine throughout despite my relatively heavy use of them.
Hope to see you at The Ring again.
Was very good to meet you, certainly hope to be back soon, though I can't make DN9 as I am away on holiday.
DSC was definitely holding me back a lot - I found it very intrusive in a lot of places. I'm not really sure why I didn't turn it off I guess it was just the thought that the NS was not the place to experiment ...
. However, given that my last two track cars have had nothing at all in the way of driver aids you'd imagine I'd cope. I really need a UK track day at somewhere like Silverstone where I can get confident without DSC.I was also braking far too early for most corners, mainly due to still mentally adjusting from the Elise, which would stop on a sixpence. However I kept finding I had slowed down enough 50m before the corner.
I'm not sure what has happened, but there is a disturbing tapping noise from the rear axle somewhere, I suspect drive shaft or diff. It comes and goes a bit and seems worse when hot. Hope to get it looked at this week.
Regarding the brakes, I have the AP kit - 6 pot on the front, 4 pot on the rear, braided hoses, RS29 pads all round, RBF600 DOT 4 fluid, PF discs on the front, OEM on the rear. Other than my own ability (above) the only problem I had was I thought I was actually a bit over-braked at the rear, so maybe some less aggressive pads at the back would help.
tertius said:Was very good to meet you, certainly hope to be back soon, though I can't make DN9 as I am away on holiday.
DSC was definitely holding me back a lot - I found it very intrusive in a lot of places. I'm not really sure why I didn't turn it off I guess it was just the thought that the NS was not the place to experiment ...
I was also braking far too early for most corners, mainly due to still mentally adjusting from the Elise, which would stop on a sixpence. However I kept finding I had slowed down enough 50m before the corner.
I'm not sure what has happened, but there is a disturbing tapping noise from the rear axle somewhere, I suspect drive shaft or diff. It comes and goes a bit and seems worse when hot. Hope to get it looked at this week.
Regarding the brakes, I have the AP kit - 6 pot on the front, 4 pot on the rear, braided hoses, RS29 pads all round, RBF600 DOT 4 fluid, PF discs on the front, OEM on the rear. Other than my own ability (above) the only problem I had was I thought I was actually a bit over-braked at the rear, so maybe some less aggressive pads at the back would help.
I had the DSC light flashing quite a lot but I couldn't figure out in what way the DSC was acting on the car because it never seemed to actually affect the throttle response. On my Z3MC the DSC essentially reacts to the inputs of the yaw sensor and since the DSC is protecting you from yaw, I've developed a driving style which pre-empts yaw from occurring; I've had the Z3MC for 10 years and now I never see the DSC light come on, even at The Ring. The Z3MC has a LSD with 25% slip and I was driving my Z4MC in exactly the same way so I suspect that the DSC on the Z4MC with a diff which permits much more slip might trigger some intervention to the amount of slip it permits or was causing individual braking on the wheels? How did you feel the DSC was acting and being intrusive? I was very glad it was switched on (and had a spare pair of pants!) when I was still at WOT after going under the bridge that time!
I found that I was able to get to much greater speeds approaching the likes of Schwedenkreuz and Fuchsrohre than I can in my Z3MC and I was using the similar braking points and I was thoroughly impressed with the OEM brakes. The hottest I saw the discs on returning to the car-park was 320C at the front and 210C at the rear and the temperatures seen on the wheels on the same axle were very similar. I had to use the brakes far more than I do in the Z3MC because I found I could accelerate between the bends to speeds above that which I know I can get round at optimum slip angles; this meant that my laps didn't flow as smoothly as they do in my Z3MC and consequently I feel that better tyres will allow me to corner faster which will help me return to more flowing laps. It was a very interesting exercise taking the car on track for the first time.
I got a few pax laps in cars shod with R-compound tyres and had an awesome lap with one of the guys in our group with a CSL (UFO) who was eating Porsches. I could really see how the tyres really move the game to another level.
You're brave leaving DSC switched on on the track - if I don't switch it off, the brakes become extremely hot. With it off, I think you'll find the loss of grip at the rear under power progressive and predictable. As for tyres, I found switching from OEM Contis to PS2s on the front markedly improved turn in and reduced understeer. I look forward to trying PSSs. I've a set of R888s on track wheels for my Westfield to try when I get home too :trampoline:
I rarely turn the DSC off anymore, and have NEVER had any issues with brake fade on my Z4MC.
But then I'm not driving at 10/10ths either
Although I have had what I'd call inappropriate computer-aided braking when I've been going through very fast sweepers - where it felt like the DSC was braking individual wheels slightly, yet saw no sign of the DSC light. It didn't slow the car at all, and the car didn't feel unbalanced or on edge, so don't know why it was doing it.
But then I'm not driving at 10/10ths either
Although I have had what I'd call inappropriate computer-aided braking when I've been going through very fast sweepers - where it felt like the DSC was braking individual wheels slightly, yet saw no sign of the DSC light. It didn't slow the car at all, and the car didn't feel unbalanced or on edge, so don't know why it was doing it.
exdos said:I had the DSC light flashing quite a lot but I couldn't figure out in what way the DSC was acting on the car because it never seemed to actually affect the throttle response. On my Z3MC the DSC essentially reacts to the inputs of the yaw sensor and since the DSC is protecting you from yaw, I've developed a driving style which pre-empts yaw from occurring; I've had the Z3MC for 10 years and now I never see the DSC light come on, even at The Ring. The Z3MC has a LSD with 25% slip and I was driving my Z4MC in exactly the same way so I suspect that the DSC on the Z4MC with a diff which permits much more slip might trigger some intervention to the amount of slip it permits or was causing individual braking on the wheels? How did you feel the DSC was acting and being intrusive? I was very glad it was switched on (and had a spare pair of pants!) when I was still at WOT after going under the bridge that time!
I found that I was able to get to much greater speeds approaching the likes of Schwedenkreuz and Fuchsrohre than I can in my Z3MC and I was using the similar braking points and I was thoroughly impressed with the OEM brakes. The hottest I saw the discs on returning to the car-park was 320C at the front and 210C at the rear and the temperatures seen on the wheels on the same axle were very similar. I had to use the brakes far more than I do in the Z3MC because I found I could accelerate between the bends to speeds above that which I know I can get round at optimum slip angles; this meant that my laps didn't flow as smoothly as they do in my Z3MC and consequently I feel that better tyres will allow me to corner faster which will help me return to more flowing laps. It was a very interesting exercise taking the car on track for the first time.
I got a few pax laps in cars shod with R-compound tyres and had an awesome lap with one of the guys in our group with a CSL (UFO) who was eating Porsches. I could really see how the tyres really move the game to another level.
DSC is braking the wheels individually - I would say it was most striking at Ex-Muhle, where it was like having a caravan on the back, but also very noticeable down into Kallenhard; through Spiegelcurve; at the exit of Mutkurve; through both Karrussels of course; and pretty much the whole way from Hohe Acht to the exit of Wipperman.
I could check the data logger for exact speeds, but I always keep try to quite a bit in reserve on the straights, so I would never be flat out at Schwedenkreuz, Fuchsrohre, Kesselchen or DH, its too easy to go * really* fast and run into a problem (quite likely of someone else's making) and have a massive accident.
BMWZ4MC said:
mmm-five said:I rarely turn the DSC off anymore, and have NEVER had any issues with brake fade on my Z4MC.
But then I'm not driving at 10/10ths either
Although I have had what I'd call inappropriate computer-aided braking when I've been going through very fast sweepers - where it felt like the DSC was braking individual wheels slightly, yet saw no sign of the DSC light. It didn't slow the car at all, and the car didn't feel unbalanced or on edge, so don't know why it was doing it.
I don't get fade when the brakes get hot, but I have had smoke pouring off all four sets of pads after a fifteen minute orientation session at the start of a track day when I left the DSC on. That was with Yellowstuff pads on an airfield track with a short lap made up of tight corners and fast straights. I have a photograph from the same track of an RS6 Avant with flames as well as smoke from the nearside front.
I don't like the mid-corner braking effect you describe either. It also feels like the DSC limits power under hard acceleration on greasy or bumpy surfaces even before the DSC light flashes. There is a large buffer between the threshold at which DSC intervenes and the true end of grip with it off. I am happiest driving in this window on the track but I do generally leave DSC on for the road.
We need a 'sport' mode for the DSC, so that it comes in sightly later!
About the only place I switch it off is Oulton Park as I know it quite well - wouldn't risk turning it of during the normal Tourist days at the 'Ring though as you never know what the track is like from one lap to the next.
Maybe next year (possibly with Nitrons as part of a full suspension refresh, and some new engine mounts), I'll be more comfortable with the car, but having the DSC on isn't making my 'Ring trip any less fun.
About the only place I switch it off is Oulton Park as I know it quite well - wouldn't risk turning it of during the normal Tourist days at the 'Ring though as you never know what the track is like from one lap to the next.
Maybe next year (possibly with Nitrons as part of a full suspension refresh, and some new engine mounts), I'll be more comfortable with the car, but having the DSC on isn't making my 'Ring trip any less fun.
BMWZ4MC said:
I think I'd be an even braver man turning the DSC off at the The Ring; it's not a track I'd like to venture off. I always carry an Infra-Red thermometer and I check the brake and tyre temps every time I park up so I know exactly what's what. I'd have no hesitation at all about turning DSC off at a track with good run-off areas. I've used the DSC on the Z3MC like an on board tutor and in the early stages of ownership, I always analysed when the DSC light came on, what had happened and it was invariably me not anticipating that I was going to create yaw situation by not lifting off in advance of the conditions to create it. I've since learned how to read a road in a much better way and I have developed a driving style that can prevent DSC intervention with that car, which I think has made me a better and faster driver. I've been on skid pans in the car and also spent some time driving on short wet grass without DSC to learn the limits and to perfect control after loss of grip occurs. Having said that, the DSC of the Z4M seems to intervene earlier than it does in the Z3MC but its action is undetectable to me and I don't feel it slows me down at all. I think the Z4M's DSC system must be much more refined than that of the Z3MC, and when the light comes on, this might be for the merest momentary touch of a brake to a single wheel and be a pre-emptive action to stop trouble occurring rather than a wholesale application of ABS and throttle cutting at a later stage in instability of the car.
I think that the Z4M's diff is superb and I find that I can apply the power in a corner much earlier than I can do in the Z3MC.
When you come back from your antipodean adventure you MUST come to The Ring and experience what it's all about.
tertius said:
Ex-Muhle can be a real pig if you're too far to the right and don't drive towards the outside because the camber pulls you to the inside. I know a couple of guys who've come unstuck there. There's also a camber change that you've got to cross through Spiegelcurve and I've been taught to momentarily lift-off to settle the car when you cross the camber before turning right. At Mutkurve there's also another potentially nasty camber on the right which you've got to cross/avoid. So it seems that in each of these places there would potentially be rapid transference of loading to one side of the diff at each of these points At the exit of Wipperman there are a few lateral load transfers with the sharp directional changes which would also create a similar situation at the diff too. So I can see that perhaps the DSC intervention coupled with your grippy tyres might be the cause of your drivetrain problem?
I'd love to see any of your logged data if you'd care to share it with me (by PM or email). I agree about the straights: I found myself going a bit too fast (I prefer not to look at the speedo when I'm diving and certainly not at over 130mph) in those 4 places before I'd sorted the suspension settings and tyres pressures, and I learned to keep something back so that I felt more in control. I took the warning at the end of DH.
Having said that, I think that driving at speed from Aremberg to Adenauer Forst is the most exhilarating section of the NS - I feel that I've survived when I've done it! 8)not a fan of our DSC system.... a recent run to simpsons ( 2.hrs away) on the last 30 mins of the journey you can REALLY get some speed up, id left the traction on during this particular journey once arriving at simpson their was heavy smoke pouring from the rear wheels.......... still one of my favourite journeys of the year....
I use 19" Supersports on mine; great compromise for road and track tyre (also in the wet). A lot better then the PS2. For a track only tyre I would choice the Cup+ on the 19" CSL wheels. For a tyre that's good on road and track the Supersport is the only answer for me! I don't have a second set of track rims, so I use the Supersports all the time (not in winter off course). Cheaper then the Cup, they last longer (really long) and IMO grip is 90% of the Cup tyres (on track and when hot). The track abuse they can take is unbelievable... 
http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Article/Michelin-Pilot-Performance-from-track-to-street.htm
http://www.motormorph.com/?p=3523
http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Article/Michelin-Pilot-Performance-from-track-to-street.htm
http://www.motormorph.com/?p=3523
Franzino said:I use 19" Supersports on mine; great compromise for road and track tyre (also in the wet). A lot better then the PS2. For a track only tyre I would choice the Cup+ on the 19" CSL wheels. For a tyre that's good on road and track the Supersport is the only answer for me! I don't have a second set of track rims, so I use the Supersports all the time (not in winter off course). Cheaper then the Cup, they last longer (really long) and IMO grip is 90% of the Cup tyres (on track and when hot). The track abuse they can take is unbelievable...
http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Article/Michelin-Pilot-Performance-from-track-to-street.htm
http://www.motormorph.com/?p=3523
i have both pss and cups and alternate reguarly.. pss aren't in the same stratosphere as a warmed cup tyre..........
Opinions can be different... In my opinion (and I do a lot of trackdays on real tracks like the ring and Spa) the difference between the cup and supersports is not world shockking (in the dry). Yes there is a difference, that's obvious. In rain, the Supersports is the winner, but on the dry the Supersport get close to the Cup. Not exactly 100% the same league, but close. I have no experience with the new Cup +.Beedub said:
If you watch the tyre pressure of the supersports when you go on track they produces really great grip. They get hot, so lower the pressure! For a track only tyre then go for the cup. For a dual purpose tyre, then Supersports it is! The cup tyre is more expensive, less grip in rain, wears out faster and makes only sense for me if you have a dedicated track car that see's more time on track then the street.. On a dedicated track car you are maybe better of with some semi slick tyres?
Franzino said:Opinions can be different... In my opinion (and I do a lot of trackdays on real tracks like the ring and Spa) the difference between the cup and supersports is not world shockking (in the dry). Yes there is a difference, that's obvious. In rain, the Supersports is the winner, but on the dry the Supersport get close to the Cup. Not exactly 100% the same league, but close. I have no experience with the new Cup +.Beedub said:Franzino said:I use 19" Supersports on mine; great compromise for road and track tyre (also in the wet). A lot better then the PS2. For a track only tyre I would choice the Cup+ on the 19" CSL wheels. For a tyre that's good on road and track the Supersport is the only answer for me! I don't have a second set of track rims, so I use the Supersports all the time (not in winter off course). Cheaper then the Cup, they last longer (really long) and IMO grip is 90% of the Cup tyres (on track and when hot). The track abuse they can take is unbelievable...
http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Article/Michelin-Pilot-Performance-from-track-to-street.htm
http://www.motormorph.com/?p=3523
i have both pss and cups and alternate reguarly.. pss aren't in the same stratosphere as a warmed cup tyre..........
If you watch the tyre pressure of the supersports when you go on track they produces really great grip. They get hot, so lower the pressure! For a track only tyre then go for the cup. For a dual purpose tyre, then Supersports it is! The cup tyre is more expensive, less grip in rain, wears out faster and makes only sense for me if you have a dedicated track car that see's more time on track then the street.. On a dedicated track car you are maybe better of with some semi slick tyres?
although i dont do "REAL tracks
" i do what i built my car for competing on sprint circuits, timed runs on small to medium sized circuits and in this arena my car punches well above it weight, having run my car through different power guises, suspension setups and now on a pretty serious suspension setup and power level with all the supporting mods that push tyres to the limit, i swap between pss/ ps2 / cup...... i can categorically tell you they are in a different league to their road based equivilants its night and day the times dont lie... so we'll agree to disagree.... The pss and the ps2 are awesome road tyres however and with a nice low tyre pressure so hot they get to around 35lbs, they work really work... im not knocking them but a proper r compound tyre will ALways perform better in dry, warm conditions that they are designed for...That IS their sole purpose, not to move water or be an allround tyre.... im not aruging the pss is a better all round tyre 100% agree, but for the track , for faster times, for consistant times... the r-comp will kick ass.... As weve moved off topic, lets leave the thread to continue its vein in terms of road tyres....interestly when my cups are done, im going to try the new trofeo R ....