Its a re-map Jim, but not as you know it (One man's E89 N20 Dyno Tuning)

[MACK]

Meanwhile back on topic..

Looking at MACK’s and Smartbear’s dyno runs its very interesting ..if you are a sad bunny..

You can see in all cases the original N20 torque curve with a small hole around 3,200 and then a gentle rise to a flattened peak at 3,500 and then a slow n steady decline to the red line..as a result the BHP curve rises with a flattening at 3,200 them hits a peak around 4,500-5,000 rpm then flattish to the redline..

What’s interesting is how the tuners have worked their craft..I wonder how much tailoring these guys can/do do..

I notice some tweaks peak later at the expense of more mid range ‘variations’ and less mid range torque others peak earlier but are ‘smoother’ having a broader range of peak hp..although maybe less peak power overall..

Is it the tuner, is the difference between pneumatic and later electronic waste gate control, or is it other factors..?

I think the maps are different for the different types of actuators, which you would expect for the electronically operated version. I don’t think it necessarily gives more absolute power as such but possibly a degree more control.
That would only make a small difference in pick up after a gear change/throttle off situation rather than more peak power :?
Rob

With my car being a 04/2012 car I've always assumed its got the pneumatic actuator. I thought the change came much later, at 2013-14. But that said I've never actually bothered to check. So it does look like outright performance wasn't behind the change, I'm assuming it was a reliability issue.

I think for me what the before runs show is how deliberately poorly mapped the 20i is from the factory, by extension the 18i mapping must be even worse. You wouldn't really expect to see a BHP curve that flat on a healthy well tuned engine, whether its normal aspirated or Turbo/Supercharged. The torque looks more akin to what you would expect to see on turbo'd diesel not a petrol and highlights what I'd always thought with this engine, that it runs out of steam very early.

Will at PTorque told me the main element BMW are using to handicap the performance is by deliberately retarding the ignition quite considerably. It's the obvious thing to use. There are a few other bits and pieces they use but the ignition is the main driver. Putting outright performance aside by doing this they are also hurting efficiency and ultimately fuel economy. Hypothetically if you has three cars 18i, 20i and 28i all driven in the same way be the same driver etc etc then the 28i would return the best economy. The effect in reality might be miniscule but should still be there.

I did ask Will if he sees much variance between engines even in standard trim when he maps them and he told me he did and it at times can be surprising big. I guess this alludes to the potential variances in production tolerancing. But it's probably more to do with servicing, the freshness of key components such as coils and plugs and in particular the grade of fuel used. Obvious a similar car on 95 or even 97 octane hasn't got a cat in hells of producing the same performance as one run exclusively on 99 octane when mapped to suit the higher octane stuff.

 

[warmasice]

Omg that Celtic curve looks terrible . Glad I went with an Evolve remap! I wonder what Celtic would have to say about this. Hmm. :thumbsdown:

 

[Jasonn]

Considering the size of celtic, I'm surprised that they're not responding to the concerns about their work

 

[enuff_zed]

Considering the size of celtic, I'm surprised that they're not responding to the concerns about their work

Me too, hence the reason I'm starting to shop around locally for somewhere with a rolling road.

 

[Anonymous]

Omg that Celtic curve looks terrible . Glad I went with an Evolve remap! I wonder what Celtic would have to say about this. Hmm. :thumbsdown:

Well after a question over the VIN /reg number no further reply..looks like somehow they f^&ked up and its TFD / don't care to do a sweep up, unlike the chap from B for BMW who was as helpful as he could be..

 

[Silverstar]

Omg that Celtic curve looks terrible . Glad I went with an Evolve remap! I wonder what Celtic would have to say about this. Hmm. :thumbsdown:

Well after a question over the VIN /reg number no further reply..looks like somehow they f^&ked up and its TFD / don't care to do a sweep up, unlike the chap from B for BMW who was as helpful as he could be..

Not a good attitude from Celtic, considering there are so many potential customers on here.

 

[enuff_zed]

Omg that Celtic curve looks terrible . Glad I went with an Evolve remap! I wonder what Celtic would have to say about this. Hmm. :thumbsdown:

Well after a question over the VIN /reg number no further reply..looks like somehow they f^&ked up and its TFD / don't care to do a sweep up, unlike the chap from B for BMW who was as helpful as he could be..

Not a good attitude from Celtic, considering there are so many potential customers on here.

A few less now, I'll bet.

 

[MACK]

I'm so glad I avoided the temptation to be lazy and get a man in a van on the drive and did this the right way. Yes its a pain booking a day off work etc to trek hours and hours to a remapper. Only to sit around for even more hours once your there, but if it's worth doing, it's worth doing right!

 

[enuff_zed]

I'm so glad I avoided the temptation to be lazy and get a man in a van on the drive and did this the right way. Yes its a pain booking a day off work etc to trek hours and hours to a remapper. Only to sit around for even more hours once your there, but if it's worth doing, it's worth doing right!

Well Oulton Broad is actually a nice cross country run, about 40 miles for me, mostly smaller A or B roads.
And I have loads of leave to use up, so it's a win, win I reckon.

 

[MACK]

I'm so glad I avoided the temptation to be lazy and get a man in a van on the drive and did this the right way. Yes its a pain booking a day off work etc to trek hours and hours to a remapper. Only to sit around for even more hours once your there, but if it's worth doing, it's worth doing right!

Well Oulton Broad is actually a nice cross country run, about 40 miles for me, mostly smaller A or B roads.
And I have loads of leave to use up, so it's a win, win I reckon.

That sounds a whole load nicer than two and half hours in each direction of roadworks and speed cameras down the M6 and M56 between Manchester and Wolverhampton!

 

[Deepseaskateboard]

I'm so glad I avoided the temptation to be lazy and get a man in a van on the drive and did this the right way. Yes its a pain booking a day off work etc to trek hours and hours to a remapper. Only to sit around for even more hours once your there, but if it's worth doing, it's worth doing right!

Well Oulton Broad is actually a nice cross country run, about 40 miles for me, mostly smaller A or B roads.
And I have loads of leave to use up, so it's a win, win I reckon.

That sounds a whole load nicer than two and half hours in each direction of roadworks and speed cameras down the M6 and M56 between Manchester and Wolverhampton!

I thought the M6 was the UK’s closest equivalent of an autobahn!

I prefer the M1.... it’s more civilised!

 

[enuff_zed]

I'm so glad I avoided the temptation to be lazy and get a man in a van on the drive and did this the right way. Yes its a pain booking a day off work etc to trek hours and hours to a remapper. Only to sit around for even more hours once your there, but if it's worth doing, it's worth doing right!

Well Oulton Broad is actually a nice cross country run, about 40 miles for me, mostly smaller A or B roads.
And I have loads of leave to use up, so it's a win, win I reckon.

That sounds a whole load nicer than two and half hours in each direction of roadworks and speed cameras down the M6 and M56 between Manchester and Wolverhampton!

Indeed, but there are a whole load more hedges and ditches to consider on the way home! :roll:

 

[Boltz]

It would be good to see another Celtic mapped Z4 to be dyno’d to see how it compares to Pete’s car with the not so good curve before we start to write off Celtic as a bunch of cowboys . My car has a stage 2 Celtic map and to be honest the car drives and feels fantastic however no dyno was done. But a recent decat means I will be looking to Ptorque in the West Mids to remap my car so I will see what the before dyno with the Celtic map shows. It will be a few weeks before I can arrange this as having surgery next week and cannot drive for at least 2 weeks after. So I will book in with Ptorque get it sorted and publish the results.

 

[enuff_zed]

It would be good to see another Celtic mapped Z4 to be dyno’d to see how it compares to Pete’s car with the not so good curve before we start to write off Celtic as a bunch of cowboys . My car has a stage 2 Celtic map and to be honest the car drives and feels fantastic however no dyno was done. But a recent decat means I will be looking to Ptorque in the West Mids to remap my car so I will see what the before dyno with the Celtic map shows. It will be a few weeks before I can arrange this as having surgery next week and cannot drive for at least 2 weeks after. So I will book in with Ptorque get it sorted and publish the results.

Agreed, we shouldn't just bin them. However, even one good result still only makes it a 50:50 chance. :wink:
For me, it sowed enough doubt to look into doing it with a rolling road session thrown in too, so I got the actual graphs for my car.
When I found it was the same price as Celtic (possibly even a bit cheaper) and involved a fun cross-country trip, it sealed the deal for me.

 

[MACK]

It would be good to see another Celtic mapped Z4 to be dyno’d to see how it compares to Pete’s car with the not so good curve before we start to write off Celtic as a bunch of cowboys . My car has a stage 2 Celtic map and to be honest the car drives and feels fantastic however no dyno was done. But a recent decat means I will be looking to Ptorque in the West Mids to remap my car so I will see what the before dyno with the Celtic map shows. It will be a few weeks before I can arrange this as having surgery next week and cannot drive for at least 2 weeks after. So I will book in with Ptorque get it sorted and publish the results.

Agreed, we shouldn't just bin them. However, even one good result still only makes it a 50:50 chance. :wink:
For me, it sowed enough doubt to look into doing it with a rolling road session thrown in too, so I got the actual graphs for my car.
When I found it was the same price as Celtic (possibly even a bit cheaper) and involved a fun cross-country trip, it sealed the deal for me.

For me it's their lack of response to Pete on this that really speaks volumes. If they'd jumped all over this you might be inclined to think it's a one off mistake somewhere that their desperate to avoid a repeat of. Offering a refund to Pete would obviously have helped too. But instead their radio silence just seems to compound matters and you can't help but conclude they don't seem to care.

 

[Boltz]

Well PTorque are 20mins away from me so a no brainer really. But another point that Pete made was that he needed to drop a few cogs to overtake with the Celtic map but I don’t feel that with mine and it pulls really well in the high gears. In 3rd gear it just keeps going so this makes me feel without the proof of a dyno that my Celtic map does what it says on the tin but hopefully in a few weeks my driving experience will be backed up with actual figures and show whether or not I am talking a load of bull****.

 

[Anonymous]

It would be good to see another Celtic mapped Z4 to be dyno’d to see how it compares to Pete’s car with the not so good curve before we start to write off Celtic as a bunch of cowboys . My car has a stage 2 Celtic map and to be honest the car drives and feels fantastic however no dyno was done. But a recent decat means I will be looking to Ptorque in the West Mids to remap my car so I will see what the before dyno with the Celtic map shows. It will be a few weeks before I can arrange this as having surgery next week and cannot drive for at least 2 weeks after. So I will book in with Ptorque get it sorted and publish the results.

As fate dealt the hand it didn't really matter for me..but..for the Z4 community..

Ideally what you want is

Dyno run as is..in your case with Celtic re-map
Dyno run with de-cat fitted
Dyno run with re-map

I was talked out of the first one on the grounds of heat soak would delay fitting the de-cat..in the end as we can see from the graphs it was so ucked up that it was irrelevant in my case..

 

[Anonymous]

Well to conclude the thread, the car went back for an inlet valve clean..on removal of the inlet manifold it wasn't to bad.. N20 engines don't coke up much compared to N55s and B48s..

We popped it on the dyno and she made a few more ponies and a bit more torque..quite common for these engines to adapt over a period to new steady state conditions..so mid range boost was up a little bit which gave it another 10 BHP and 27NM torque..

Should bring it back every 3 or 4 weeks..

 

[enuff_zed]

Well to conclude the thread, the car went back for an inlet valve clean..on removal of the exhaust manifold it wasn't to bad.

Yeah but what did it look like from the inlet manifold side? :roll:

 

[ronk]

You’ve picked an ‘orrible wet day for what would have been a nice drive home!