Its a re-map Jim, but not as you know it (One man's E89 N20 Dyno Tuning)

[Anonymous]

Did you do any runs on the dyno before fitting the decat. If not then I dont think we can criticise any map done for a none decat car. My 35i has a celtic stage 1 map. I had both downpipes replaced by VRSF decats and returned to celtic for my £80 retune and sensor delete. The car made a very flat and unpleasant noise before the remap and I was not getting any sensor errors either!!
After the decat tweak I gained 25BHP!!!!!
Celtic maps are very aggressive I find (and like)...

The Taciturn techy said he doubted very much that the car would have run differently without the decat, as proof the car ran A OK on the OE map with the de-cat!

 

[Anonymous]

Did you do any runs on the dyno before fitting the decat. If not then I dont think we can criticise any map done for a none decat car. My 35i has a celtic stage 1 map. I had both downpipes replaced by VRSF decats and returned to celtic for my £80 retune and sensor delete. The car made a very flat and unpleasant noise before the remap and I was not getting any sensor errors either!!
After the decat tweak I gained 25BHP!!!!!
Celtic maps are very aggressive I find (and like)...

Pete says the cars driven like that since it was remapped (with cats)....
Rob

Might be a good idea to send a copy of the dyno to celtic for comment, may even get a refund!

I think I will but you can imagine a myriad of random excuses..I'll copy B for BMW in since they did the Celtic re-map as well!

 

[mcbutler]

Pete says the cars driven like that since it was remapped (with cats)....
Rob

Might be a good idea to send a copy of the dyno to celtic for comment, may even get a refund!

I think I will but you can imagine a myriad of random excuses..I'll copy B for BMW in since they did the Celtic re-map as well!

Would love to hear their thoughts on it, might be something interesting we have not thought of, keep us updated chum

 

[Pooltee]

Certainly made a lovely noise when he did the run. I am guessing that is with the decat fitted as it sounds somewhat different to mine in the rollers.

 

[Anonymous]

I have never understood generic maps that people use. I dont pretend to know the whole ins and outs of tuning.
From what I have always thought is that each engine is slightly different than the next and to get the best from a remap it has to be done on a rolling road with YOUR car being mapped, ie a custom map.
Now from what you are seeing the generic map was a waste of money and time and could possibly have damaged the engine.

There's surprisingly little difference between engines when it comes to output after tuning. They are all mass produced with very tight tolerances so the only difference in output comes from the fuel the customer puts in. Once an engine gets old things change as not everyone maintains a car at the same standard.

Both companies here have used a generic map maybe with slight tweaks to the ignition and boost control. The difference is that the generic map used by Celtic was duff. In fairness the Celtic map may have produced a good readout first time around, one of the difficulties with tuning cars is that some issues only occur at certain conditions and the conditions present on a dyno don't reflect the conditions of a road, that's why data logging during real world drive cycles is crucial for a good quality tune.

The Engineering Explained youtube channel had a great video recently documenting his issues with a supercharger kit. There's certainly an overlap with this topic in the tune issue regard, worth watching. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKZSSHjLiy4

As an aside I went through the records to see how other E89 N20s had faired at The Performance Centre..part of the issue with Celtic is a lack of actual dyno runs only predicted outputs..

Engine Base BHP Book Figure Mapped BHP
18i 169.5 154 284.5
18i 165 154 275
20i 185.7 181 266.5
20i 184 181 275
20i 191 181 287.7
20i 193.4 181 284.1
20i decat 184.4 181 266
28i 241 241 282

Not sure what it proves but there you go!

 

[Anonymous]

Certainly made a lovely noise when he did the run. I am guessing that is with the decat fitted as it sounds somewhat different to mine in the rollers.

All runs were with the de-cat..I wanted a base run with Celtic tune and stock pipe but it would have taken too long as the cool down on the dyno would delay them fitting the de-cat..

 

[MACK]

Did you do any runs on the dyno before fitting the decat. If not then I dont think we can criticise any map done for a none decat car. My 35i has a celtic stage 1 map. I had both downpipes replaced by VRSF decats and returned to celtic for my £80 retune and sensor delete. The car made a very flat and unpleasant noise before the remap and I was not getting any sensor errors either!!
After the decat tweak I gained 25BHP!!!!!
Celtic maps are very aggressive I find (and like)...

Pete says the cars driven like that since it was remapped (with cats)....
Rob

My cars currently running the standard BMW 20i map and is decatted. It's definitely improved the cars performance I'd say, rather than the opposite and you wouldn't expect a decat to have a detrimental effect on a car's performance. All you're doing is making the exhaust more free flowing which you'd normally expect to improve things, especially on a turbocharged car.

The only thing I can possibly think of that would hinder the car's performance is the EML light coming on due to the lack of cats, which then perhaps results in the ECU/DME restricting performance in way. However I don't think it does that and what Pete has said about his car's performance pre the mapping session and the decat being fitted seems to bear this out. Like I said mines decatted, my EML is on currently but mine definitely feels better post decat than before. Its something I've seen on a number of cars over the years (BMW, AUDI & VW) where I've decatted them ahead of a remap and the EML has activated. I've never once experienced a drop off in performance and the before and after dyno prints for those cars supports that.

Mines due to be remapped at PTorque in a few weeks time, with before and after dyno runs. I'll post the prints up on here and ask PTorque a few questions while I'm there and we should be able to see either way and hopefully put that theory to bed.

Looking at Pete's before and after dyno runs I can't help but think that for large parts of the usable rev range on the road his car was probably performing more akin to a standard 18i than an actual 20i, never mind it being a remapped 20i. This was being masked somewhat by the big bump below 2,500rpm and the second one over 5,000rpm. It would be interesting to hear what Celtic have to say about this, you'd hope something has gone wrong somewhere. But then again if you think about it their map does deliver the headline BHP/LBFT they claim. However this map does demonstrate for me the value of a proper remapping session with rolling road over the generic remap approach. You can literally see what your getting for your money, that it's a good spread of power and torque right across the rev range as well as the mapper being able to tweak it to suit your particular engine, fuel grade and mods etc

 

[Anonymous]

Did you do any runs on the dyno before fitting the decat. If not then I dont think we can criticise any map done for a none decat car. My 35i has a celtic stage 1 map. I had both downpipes replaced by VRSF decats and returned to celtic for my £80 retune and sensor delete. The car made a very flat and unpleasant noise before the remap and I was not getting any sensor errors either!!
After the decat tweak I gained 25BHP!!!!!
Celtic maps are very aggressive I find (and like)...

Pete says the cars driven like that since it was remapped (with cats)....
Rob

My cars currently running the standard BMW 20i map and is decatted. It's definitely improved the cars performance I'd say, rather than the opposite and you wouldn't expect a decat to have a detrimental effect on a car's performance. All you're doing is making the exhaust more free flowing which you'd normally expect to improve things, especially on a turbocharged car.

The only thing I can possibly think of that would hinder the car's performance is the EML light coming on due to the lack of cats, which then perhaps results in the ECU/DME restricting performance in way. However I don't think it does that and what Pete has said about his car's performance pre the mapping session and the decat being fitted seems to bear this out. Like I said mines decatted, my EML is on currently but mine definitely feels better post decat than before. Its something I've seen on a number of cars over the years (BMW, AUDI & VW) where I've decatted them ahead of a remap and the EML has activated. I've never once experienced a drop off in performance and the before and after dyno prints for those cars supports that.

Mines due to be remapped at PTorque in a few weeks time, with before and after dyno runs. I'll post the prints up on here and ask PTorque a few questions while I'm there and we should be able to see either way and hopefully put that theory to bed.

Looking at Pete's before and after dyno runs I can't help but think that for large parts of the usable rev range on the road his car was probably performing more akin to a standard 18i than an actual 20i, never mind it being a remapped 20i. This was being masked somewhat by the big bump below 2,500rpm and the second one over 5,000rpm. It would be interesting to hear what Celtic have to say about this, you'd hope something has gone wrong somewhere. But then again if you think about it their map does deliver the headline BHP/LBFT they claim. However this map does demonstrate for me the value of a proper remapping session with rolling road over the generic remap approach. You can literally see what your getting for your money, that it's a good spread of power and torque right across the rev range as well as the mapper being able to tweak it to suit your particular engine, fuel grade and mods etc

I'm hoping that I will be able to keep up with Earthdweller and AlienZed now on future runs! :driving:

Mind you they don't slow down for corners.. :rofl:

 

[MACK]

Pete says the cars driven like that since it was remapped (with cats)....
Rob

My cars currently running the standard BMW 20i map and is decatted. It's definitely improved the cars performance I'd say, rather than the opposite and you wouldn't expect a decat to have a detrimental effect on a car's performance. All you're doing is making the exhaust more free flowing which you'd normally expect to improve things, especially on a turbocharged car.

The only thing I can possibly think of that would hinder the car's performance is the EML light coming on due to the lack of cats, which then perhaps results in the ECU/DME restricting performance in way. However I don't think it does that and what Pete has said about his car's performance pre the mapping session and the decat being fitted seems to bear this out. Like I said mines decatted, my EML is on currently but mine definitely feels better post decat than before. Its something I've seen on a number of cars over the years (BMW, AUDI & VW) where I've decatted them ahead of a remap and the EML has activated. I've never once experienced a drop off in performance and the before and after dyno prints for those cars supports that.

Mines due to be remapped at PTorque in a few weeks time, with before and after dyno runs. I'll post the prints up on here and ask PTorque a few questions while I'm there and we should be able to see either way and hopefully put that theory to bed.

Looking at Pete's before and after dyno runs I can't help but think that for large parts of the usable rev range on the road his car was probably performing more akin to a standard 18i than an actual 20i, never mind it being a remapped 20i. This was being masked somewhat by the big bump below 2,500rpm and the second one over 5,000rpm. It would be interesting to hear what Celtic have to say about this, you'd hope something has gone wrong somewhere. But then again if you think about it their map does deliver the headline BHP/LBFT they claim. However this map does demonstrate for me the value of a proper remapping session with rolling road over the generic remap approach. You can literally see what your getting for your money, that it's a good spread of power and torque right across the rev range as well as the mapper being able to tweak it to suit your particular engine, fuel grade and mods etc

I'm hoping that I will be able to keep up with Earthdweller and AlienZed now on future runs! :driving:

Mind you they don't slow down for corners.. :rofl:

Yes but with all that lovely extra mid range punch you'll be battering them on the straights! :rofl:

 

[MACK]

Well that is a weird result with the Celtic tune isn't it?
Do you think they are all like that or simply that, as you said, your car doesn't want to play.
I have still not committed to the remap yet, and tbh if it gave a curve like that I'm not sure whether I'd want it??
Hopefully the smartest bear on the forum will be along shortly to add his input. I'm sure his remap was rolling-roaded and didn't look like that?
And of course, the many others who have had either Evolve, Celtic or other remaps?

Regardless of the effect of the decat, the session was worth it for you it seems.

My evolve map didn’t have the dip in the midrange like that, I’m sure that can’t be typical as plenty of people use Celtic and are happy with the results, it’s also a very good reason to get your car Dyno tested before/after tweaking as it would have been obvious to the operator that something was amiss & the car wouldn’t have been sent out like that! :?
CCD75022-7299-4BB8-B754-E204A3094297.jpeg2302470B-79B0-4E31-AAC3-9F54EEC7E7DA.jpeg84572F4D-65CF-4719-86EA-1E8CF0B32EB4.jpeg
Rob

Hi Rob,

What did your car produce on the dyno pre the remap?

 

[Smartbear]

Well that is a weird result with the Celtic tune isn't it?
Do you think they are all like that or simply that, as you said, your car doesn't want to play.
I have still not committed to the remap yet, and tbh if it gave a curve like that I'm not sure whether I'd want it??
Hopefully the smartest bear on the forum will be along shortly to add his input. I'm sure his remap was rolling-roaded and didn't look like that?
And of course, the many others who have had either Evolve, Celtic or other remaps?

Regardless of the effect of the decat, the session was worth it for you it seems.

My evolve map didn’t have the dip in the midrange like that, I’m sure that can’t be typical as plenty of people use Celtic and are happy with the results, it’s also a very good reason to get your car Dyno tested before/after tweaking as it would have been obvious to the operator that something was amiss & the car wouldn’t have been sent out like that! :?
CCD75022-7299-4BB8-B754-E204A3094297.jpeg2302470B-79B0-4E31-AAC3-9F54EEC7E7DA.jpeg84572F4D-65CF-4719-86EA-1E8CF0B32EB4.jpeg
Rob

Hi Rob,

What did your car produce on the dyno pre the remap?

It’s featured on the graph, it’s got standard (179bhp) and then 3 more pulls after mapping giving a little more each time.
Rob

 

[MACK]

My evolve map didn’t have the dip in the midrange like that, I’m sure that can’t be typical as plenty of people use Celtic and are happy with the results, it’s also a very good reason to get your car Dyno tested before/after tweaking as it would have been obvious to the operator that something was amiss & the car wouldn’t have been sent out like that! :?
CCD75022-7299-4BB8-B754-E204A3094297.jpeg2302470B-79B0-4E31-AAC3-9F54EEC7E7DA.jpeg84572F4D-65CF-4719-86EA-1E8CF0B32EB4.jpeg
Rob

Hi Rob,

What did your car produce on the dyno pre the remap?

It’s featured on the graph, it’s got standard (179bhp) and then 3 more pulls after mapping giving a little more each time.
Rob

Sorry so it does, I'll actually open my eyes next time! :rofl:
The reason I was asking is I seemed to remember some confusion about yours being either an 18i or 20i back when you got it. I was thinking you may have started in 150BHP region. That really would have been one hell of increase, not that 179 to 275bhp isn't.

 

[Smartbear]

Hi Rob,

What did your car produce on the dyno pre the remap?

It’s featured on the graph, it’s got standard (179bhp) and then 3 more pulls after mapping giving a little more each time.
Rob

Sorry so it does, I'll actually open my eyes next time! :rofl:
The reason I was asking is I seemed to remember some confusion about yours being either an 18i or 20i back when you got it. I was thinking you may have started in 150BHP region. That really would have been one hell of increase, not that 179 to 275bhp isn't.

That was a strange time, the car was sold to me as an 18i but evolve insisted that it was actually the 20i model after testing it!
The power increase to 276.2bhp felt like being released by a giant catapult, with the extra torque (around 50% more) being obvious. You can make “progress” without revving the conkers off it :driving:
Rob

 

[craig3.2]

Nice work,Peter.
Looks like the correct place to go,and it does have a good spread of power and torque now
The Yellow peril just got quicker :driving:
Nice one.
You got much more to do to it,or is that it for now?
.....you have been busier than me probably, with the work you have done to it recently.
Its nice,having spent a chunk of money,at seeing some end result from it,isn't it

 

[enuff_zed]

I'm sure I'm not the only person who had a Celtic remap in mind and has just yanked hard on the mental handbrake?
I am following this closely to see if there is an explanation, but I have to say that at the moment I am leaning much more heavily towards one that includes a rolling road session.
Perhaps Peter, if you mention this to Celtic and they see the potential drop in business, they may be more inclined to investigate it more closely.
I suspect though, that now that map has been removed, they will say they have nothing to check.

 

[Rockhopper]

I've no direct experience of Celtic's remaps but I've been an Alfa owner for many years and followed the owners forum very closely. I can't say I've heard of many people who have had a positive experience of Celtic tuning. I personally wouldn't consider one of their remaps.

 

[enuff_zed]

I've no direct experience of Celtic's remaps but I've been an Alfa owner for many years and followed the owners forum very closely. I can't say I've heard of many people who have had a positive experience of Celtic tuning. I personally wouldn't consider one of their remaps.

Well I may have to see what Evolves then :wink:

 

[Jasonn]

I was looking at pulling the trigger on the remap and Celtic were in the frame, guess I'll see how this plays out (looking at Quantum and a local "MJC" at the moment)

 

[Anonymous]

Nice work,Peter.
Looks like the correct place to go,and it does have a good spread of power and torque now
The Yellow peril just got quicker :driving:
Nice one.
You got much more to do to it,or is that it for now?
.....you have been busier than me probably, with the work you have done to it recently.
Its nice,having spent a chunk of money,at seeing some end result from it,isn't it

Hi Craig, to be honest I was doubting that travelling to Sunderland and spending £500 was going to be worth it..especially as even they said that sometimes they struggle to better other people's tunes..but with the de-cat I didn't want to take any chances..however.. :driving:

My real work dried up at the beginning of March so idle hands gives me time to mess around and tinker in a way for the last 25 years I really haven't had that much spare time for 'hobbies'..

Was pondering one of these babies for a Christmas present to moi? :rofl:

https://www.bimmerworld.com/Exhaust/BMW-Turbo-Parts-Kits/MHI-N20-N26-Big-Turbo-BMW-F30-328i-F32-428i-F22-228i.html

 

[Anonymous]

For info I've written a detailed email to both Celtic and the dealer who fitted the re-map along with the charts..I can see from a trace report that its been delivered to both and the dealer has opened up the email..

We'll see what gives..