Help me with brake pads guys!!

Beedub

Lifer
Sutton Coldfield
Guys im just installed my
Ap brake kit, i have pagid blues on the car, the kit has under 500 miles, but the pads imo arnt as good as i was expected, cold performance definatly suffers, once really warm these are awesome, but as pagids best seller i expected better cold performance and they are very very dusty. Im going to re do the bed in procedure, any use these pads and have some input for me?? Can u you suggest a better pad??
 
Beedub said:
Guys im just installed my
Ap brake kit, i have pagid blues on the car, the kit has under 500 miles, but the pads imo arnt as good as i was expected, cold performance definatly suffers, once really warm these are awesome, but as pagids best seller i expected better cold performance and they are very very dusty. Im going to re do the bed in procedure, any use these pads and have some input for me?? Can u you suggest a better pad??

No direct experience myself but Thorney Motorsport have done a lot of M3/CSL work so it might be worth giving them a call. Here's a link from their site

http://www.thorneymotorsport.co.uk/tuning/bmw/m3/e46/e46-m3-csl-brakes.shtml

P
 
Sounds like you've discovered what I discovered in my Cerbera (AP calipers): you can't have your cake and eat it!

Despite manufacturer's claims, I never found a high performance trackday oriented pad that worked properly from cold. Living up a hill with a T junction at the bottom, it just wasn't funny for normal road use. I settled on Mintex 1144 on the end. They did work from cold and they didn't fade on track before the tyres needed a rest anyway.

Technology's probably moved on but I'd be surprised if a Holy Grail compound has been discovered and the same basic principle doesn't still apply.
 
I used to run Pagid Blues on my Exige, they were fine for daily use but that was due to the lower weight of the car that ment less to work with on initial bite.

Proper bedding in will transform them, have you found the official bedding in guides? Do it properly and it makes a real difference. Also you might need to do this every now and again if you haven't been hard on them, they do glaze quickly.

Do Carbone Lorraine make pads to fit your calipers? They have improved bite from cold compared to the Pagids and really take a heavy workload too, but they can break up so keep an eye on them (I think this might be fixed now though).
 
interesting... im going to do the bed in procedure... bare in mind i havent done this as jamie did it on his car but for names sake i will re-do the bed in procedure and report back, form cold they arent all that imo, and i agree all these claims of great cold weather performance...... not founded imo.

BUt i must stress i have not done the bed in procdure i just took the fact jamie had done in which he did, BUT as they are new to my car i should re-do the bed procedure, we'll see, the jurys out.

also the pedal is ROCK hard, im used to alittle sponge at the top, but the pedal on these new brakes will take some getting used to, im guessing the braided lines + the 6 pots will do that for you!!

at this very moment..... not impressed with pagid blue, ill come back with a full report after bed in... anyone got a tried and tested bed in method??
 
stoptech recommend, 10 stops from 60-10mph using 90% braking force, drive for alittle while to cool down then another 10 stops from 60-10mpg using 90% force, this will allow enough material to be transfered onto the rotor. ill give it a go, man thats going to need a motorway and a very early or late start!! lol
 
Beedub said:
at this very moment..... not impressed with pagid blue, ill come back with a full report after bed in... anyone got a tried and tested bed in method??

I used the AP guide here: http://www.apracing.com/info/info.asp?section=Brake+Disc+Bedding+Guide_124

I know it say's for discs, but I used it for all bedding in and it worked well

Like you said finding a road is often tricky for this, early mornings best though - doing it at night seems to attract attention from the police.

Bedding was something I had to do now and again, as I am pretty light in brakes and they would often glaze over - doing this transformed them, without it I thought they had given up on me at times!

Beedub said:
also the pedal is ROCK hard, im used to alittle sponge at the top, but the pedal on these new brakes will take some getting used to, im guessing the braided lines + the 6 pots will do that for you!!

RS42'S will give alot more top end bite, it's part of their appeal for some. A major reason they are so popular on Lotus circles where the top end of the pedal is a little dead, 42's often solve this.
 
The relatively poor initial/cold bite is part of the reason they (and lots of others) are not certified as road legal pads, as while their hot performance is way better than standard pads, their cold performance is way worse, so they fail both tests for the ECE R90 certification.

This is one of the reasons I tap my brakes during normal driving, simply to get a bit of warmth in their in case I have to do an emergency stop.

Most 'race' pads are dusty, as a race driver won't care about dirty wheels if he thinks it gives him another 1 sec a lap :P

The marketing machine around the EBC Blue Stuff NDX pads claim their excellent initial/cold performance along with good high temp performance, but until I actually use them I can't really say whether this is true.
 
cheers m-5, that pretty much answers my questions, im going to do bed in and see where we go from their.
 
Just thought i share this bed procedure with you guys : very interesting read

by Matt Weiss of StopTech and James Walker, Jr. of scR motorsports


When a system has both new rotors and pads, there are two different objectives for bedding-in a performance brake system: heating up the brake rotors and pads in a prescribed manner, so as to transfer pad material evenly onto the rotors; and maturing the pad material, so that resins which are used to bind and form it are ‘cooked' out of the pad.

The first objective is achieved by performing a series of stops, so that the brake rotor and pad material are heated steadily to a temperature that promotes the transfer of pad material onto the brake rotor friction surface. There is one pitfall in this process, however, which must be avoided. The rotor and, therefore, the vehicle should not be brought to a complete stop, with the brakes still applied, as this risks the non-uniform transfer of pad material onto the friction surface.

The second objective of the bedding-in process is achieved by performing another set of stops, in order to mature the pad itself. This ensures that resins which are used to bind and form the pad material are ‘cooked' out of the pad, at the point where the pad meets the rotor's friction surface.

The bed-in process is not complete until both sets of stops have been performed. There's one exception, however. Some pad manufacturers sell ‘race-ready' pads, which have been pre-conditioned by flame heat-treating or laser etching, to provide a mature surface on the pad face. If race-ready pads are being used, then the second set of controlled stops is unnecessary. Also note that the same circumstances exist when a system to be bedded has new rotors and used pads (a strategy that professional teams use to break in their rotors ahead of time) one only has to perform a single set of stops to transfer pad material uniformly onto the new rotor.

Note that, if the brakes of a vehicle with high-performance or racing pads are not used continuously in an aggressive manner, the transfer layer on the rotors can be abraded (literally worn off). However, the transfer layer can be re-established, if needed, by repeating one series of stops in the bed-in procedure. This process may be repeated as often as necessary during the life of the pad.

This characteristic is useful when a system is already bedded-in with one pad friction and another is to be used going forward, like when changing between pad types for the street and track (and then after a track event, back again). The procedure under this case is different, where the new friction is installed and the vehicle is first driven for 5 to 20 miles (8 to 33 Km) with light use, keeping the pad friction and rotor cold. This promotes the abrasive friction mechanism cleaning the rotor surface of the previous pad material before performing either one or two bed-in cycles as prescribed below. One set of stops as outlined, if the pads being installed are used, two if the pads are actually new

The bed-in procedures below outline the steps required to effectively bed-in performance brake systems. We strongly recommend that, in order to complete the bed-in safely, the bed-in procedures be conducted in dry conditions on a race track or other controlled environment, so as not to endanger yourself or others. Please note that we neither recommend nor condone driving at high speeds on public roads. While it is important to get enough heat into the system to effectively bed-in the brakes, it is even more important to exercise common sense at all times, and to conduct the bed-in procedure responsibly.

Bedding-in Street-Performance Pads
For a typical performance brake system using street-performance pads, a series of ten partial braking events, from 60mph down to 10mph, will typically raise the temperature of the brake components sufficiently to be considered one bed-in set. Each of the ten partial braking events should achieve moderate-to-high deceleration (about 80 to 90% of the deceleration required to lock up the brakes and/or to engage the ABS), and they should be made one after the other, without allowing the brakes to cool in between.

Depending on the make-up of the pad material, the brake friction will seem to gain slightly in performance, and will then lose or fade somewhat by around the fifth stop (also about the time that a friction smell will be detectable in the passenger compartment). This does not indicate that the brakes are bedded-in. This phenomenon is known as a green fade, as it is characteristic of immature or ‘green' pads, in which the resins still need to be driven out of the pad material, at the point where the pads meet the rotors. In this circumstance, the upper temperature limit of the friction material will not yet have been reached.

As when bedding-in any set of brakes, care should be taken regarding the longer stopping distance necessary with incompletely bedded pads. This first set of stops in the bed-in process is only complete when all ten stops have been performed - not before. The system should then be allowed to cool, by driving the vehicle at the highest safe speed for the circumstances, without bringing it to a complete stop with the brakes still applied. After cooling the vehicle, a second set of ten partial braking events should be performed, followed by another cooling exercise. In some situations, a third set is beneficial, but two are normally sufficient.

Bedding-in Club Race or Full Race Pads
For a typical performance brake system using race pads, the bed-in procedure must be somewhat more aggressive, as higher temperatures need to be reached, in order to bring certain brands of pad material up to their full race potential.

We typically recommend a set of ten partial braking events, from 60mph down to 10mph, followed immediately by three or four partial braking events, from 80mph down to 10mph. Alternately, a set of eleven stops, from 80mph to 40mph, or a set of seven stops, from 100mph to 50mph, would be approximately the same. As with street pads, each of the partial braking events should achieve moderate-to-high deceleration (about 80% of the deceleration required to lock up the brakes and/or to engage the ABS), and they should be made one after the other, without allowing the brakes to cool in between.

Again, depending on the make-up of the pad material, the brake friction will seem to gain slightly in performance, and will then lose or fade somewhat about halfway through the first set of stops. This does not indicate that the brakes are bedded-in, except where race-ready pads are being used. This phenomenon is the same as that which occurs with high-performance or street pads (except that, when race-ready pads are used, they do not exhibit green fade, and they will be bedded-in after just one complete set of stops).

As when bedding-in any set of brakes, care should be taken regarding the longer stopping distance necessary with incompletely bedded pads. This first set of stops in the bed-in process is only complete when the recommended number of stops has been performed - not before. As a general rule, it would be better to perform additional stops, than not enough. The system should then be allowed to cool, by driving the vehicle at the highest safe speed for the circumstances, without bringing it to a complete stop with the brakes still applied.

After cooling the vehicle, a second set of the recommended number of stops should be performed, followed by another cooling exercise. In some situations, a third set is beneficial, but two are normally sufficient.

Racers will note that, when a pad is bedded-in properly, there will be approximately 2mm (0.1 inch) of the pad edge near the rotor, on which the paint will have turned to ash, or the color of the pad will have changed to look as though it has been overheated.

In summary, the key to successfully bedding-in performance brakes is to bring the pads up to their operating temperature range, in a controlled manner, and to keep them there long enough to start the pad material transfer process. Different brake system designs, pad types, and driving conditions require different procedures to achieve a successful bed-in. The procedures recommended above should provide a useful starting point for developing bed-in procedures appropriate to individual applications.
 
It works.... I re-bed mine in every 4-5wks....

Those who have been on my Runs will know I do not use the brakes much or hard on the road (typically), so I have to make a point of re-bedding monthly... No hardship as it is a hoot feeling the power of retardation :)

I bought the Stoptech BBK for track work and there it really comes into its own :D

If you do TD's a BBK is a highly recommend mod for your Z4M - Expensive yes, but so worth it :thumbsup:
 
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