Has anybody changed their steering geometry for road used only

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flybobbie said:
With those front toe settings i'm not surprised the steering handling was lively.
The parts you fitted i assume were a few mm's longer than the one's you took off.

Did you know PA28's also have a toe in setting.

Well it does prove that twiddling with the steering geometry does have an effect! :tumbleweed:

I was fortunate that I only learnt to fly in PA28s so never was faced with technical details / maintenance issues / required comprehension..

Having had a part share in a Jodel DR250 tail dragger that was the ultimate bad geometry example...

People fell into groups, those who had ground looped one and those that were yet to ground loop them.. :rofl:
 
flybobbie said:
With those front toe settings i'm not surprised the steering handling was lively.
The parts you fitted i assume were a few mm's longer than the one's you took off.

Did you know PA28's also have a toe in setting.

So did Tornado.
 
enuff_zed said:
flybobbie said:
With those front toe settings i'm not surprised the steering handling was lively.
The parts you fitted i assume were a few mm's longer than the one's you took off.

Did you know PA28's also have a toe in setting.

So did Tornado.
It's probable that most aircraft do.
 
Pbondar said:
I’m still waiting for the Eibach 5mm spacers..I’ll advise when fitted..

Until Auntie Nicola here in Scotland let’s us go to phase 3 of the COVID release plan we’re not supposed to go more than 5 miles from home..phase 1 doesn’t start till 28th May...

I guess I could take the car to do the essential shopping..

Thanks, got some PS4's fitted yesterday 225/40/18 & 255/35/18. They've made quite a difference over the E85M 225/45 and 255/40 GY F1 AS2/3 that were on there. Can I ask what tyre pressures you run with your contis?
 
MACK said:
Pbondar said:
I’m still waiting for the Eibach 5mm spacers..I’ll advise when fitted..

Until Auntie Nicola here in Scotland let’s us go to phase 3 of the COVID release plan we’re not supposed to go more than 5 miles from home..phase 1 doesn’t start till 28th May...

I guess I could take the car to do the essential shopping..

Thanks, got some PS4's fitted yesterday 225/40/18 & 255/35/18. They've made quite a difference over the E85M 225/45 and 255/40 GY F1 AS2/3 that were on there. Can I ask what tyre pressures you run with your contis?

I run 32/34 to 34/36, haven’t tried any settings outside of that range..within that I can’t detect any particular variation..

I’m a big fan of Contis although they are not rated / mentioned here..I’m sure the Michelin’s are very good...

I have a set of Team Dynamics Pro Race1.2 specifically for the E89 in 17 with Sports Contact 3 on them..

Given lack of use I’ve probably got two years to go before I have to swap tires again..
 
Pbondar said:
MACK said:
Pbondar said:
I’m still waiting for the Eibach 5mm spacers..I’ll advise when fitted..

Until Auntie Nicola here in Scotland let’s us go to phase 3 of the COVID release plan we’re not supposed to go more than 5 miles from home..phase 1 doesn’t start till 28th May...

I guess I could take the car to do the essential shopping..

Thanks, got some PS4's fitted yesterday 225/40/18 & 255/35/18. They've made quite a difference over the E85M 225/45 and 255/40 GY F1 AS2/3 that were on there. Can I ask what tyre pressures you run with your contis?

I run 32/34 to 34/36, haven’t tried any settings outside of that range..within that I can’t detect any particular variation..

I’m a big fan of Contis although they are not rated / mentioned here..I’m sure the Michelin’s are very good...

I have a set of Team Dynamics Pro Race1.2 specifically for the E89 in 17 with Sports Contact 3 on them..

Given lack of use I’ve probably got two years to go before I have to swap tires again..

Thanks, I'll give both pressures a go, the standard 36/38 RFT pressure for 18's does feel a tad too harsh with PS4's. Doe's got to show how a change of tyre can make all the difference. With the GY AS2/3 the combination of the extra 5% sidewall and the much softer sidewalls they have the PS4'S. Even 36/38 didn't really feel enough
 
IMHO, its such a complex and interacting set if relationships between wheels/tyres/dampers/springs/geometry/weight distribution that what works well with one combo may not work as well with a different combo..

Many Z4-idtes swear by the Goodyear tyres..I’ve followed many a Z4 on those tyres with happy and spirited owners..

But again there are many enlightened/biased types who see the Michelin’s as the only true light..

I think at the end of the day if you’re happy that’s all that matters..

Given similar wheels/suspension etc I’ll be interested in your conclusions :thumbsup:
 
Pbondar said:
IMHO, its such a complex and interacting set if relationships between wheels/tyres/dampers/springs/geometry/weight distribution that what works well with one combo may not work as well with a different combo..

Many Z4-idtes swear by the Goodyear tyres..I’ve followed many a Z4 on those tyres with happy and spirited owners..

But again there are many enlightened/biased types who see the Michelin’s as the only true light..

I think at the end of the day if you’re happy that’s all that matters..

Given similar wheels/suspension etc I’ll be interested in your conclusions :thumbsup:

Well after trying 32/34, 34/36 and the BMW RFT 18" pressure of 36/38 for the E89 over the last few days with the Michelin PS4's. I have to conclude that the OEM pressure of 36/38 is actually the best. I know this will come as surprise to some on here, it came as a bit of a surprise to me to be honest but there you go. At the lower pressures, particularly 32/34 the steering didn't feel as responsive, it felt heavier and stodgy. You could feel the tyres squirming a bit and the back end would slide a fair bit easier too. Over the bumps you could feel the car de-stabilizing slightly with a bit of shimmer through the steering wheel, I didn't notice that at the higher pressure. Another thing that did surprise me was that the ride quality didn't feel that much different between the three pressures

The Michelin's are a definite improvement over the GY AS 2/3's that came off. The steering is sharper, more responsive and the car just feels much more sports car like. The only negative is its a fair bit harsher but I guess that's the trade off of dropping a profile and the GY's softer sidewalls. I don't know if its the fact I was running oversized tyres 225/45 & 255/40, the tyres themselves with their softer sidewalls or the fact that the et35 wheels combined with the tyres push the scrub radius 10mm negative from the factory setting. Its probably a combination of all these factors so I'll be keen to hear what you think when your spacers are on taking the scrub radius back to near factory.
 
Thanks for the observations :thumbsup:

It will be next week before the spacers arrive..they managed to mix the head sizes front n rear on the first attempt..

We’re still on lockdown here and trips further than 5 miles for leisure are phase 3..phase 1 starts this Thursday ..so maybe sometime before I can experiment in detail..

I’ll play with the pressures to see if the Contis respond in a similar fashion..
 
Pbondar said:
So I’ve had the car re-aligned as best as could be done..the right hand side camber is slightly out front and back..the garage suggested that could be worn bushings..or they just are like that sometimes..I think it’s 3 years of a teletubby in the RH seat..

Compared to the basket case caused by initial fitting of M3 control arms on front plus out of spec rear toe it’s almost all in OE spec despite not fitting 2 68 kg pax, plus full fuel plus 14kg of luggage as required by BMW for geometry check..

On the way there severe bump steer plus ultra self servo steering..altogether very unpleasant..

On my private evaluation track on the way back..it’s as good or better than I’ve ever known it..

To restate the relevant changes

8.5j ET35 running 235/40 18 Continental Sport Contact 5
9.5j ET45 running 255/35 18 Continental Sport Contact 5+
Bilstein B8 shocks on OE MSport springs
H&R ARB on middle rear setting
BMW M3 front control arms/wishbones
Quaife LSD
28i front discs/calipers

Very good bump control, no significant bump steer, steering nicely weighted and precise..

In sports+ mode on the 280bhp re-map great combo of adequate acceleration plus great control in corners in any power on/off mode..

So not sure if there is much left to tweak..

I’ll put the 5mm spacers on to see what changes it makes when they arrive..

Without a race track and clock difficult to judge any further her ..hopefully enough to keep up with AlienZed, earthdweller and craig 3.2 on future runs..

Do you feel improvements from before,Peter,and do you think the m3 sway bars make any difference that is noticeable?
Some nice upgrades I would reckon.... That Quaife LSD is a great addition to any non LSD car,IMO.

Yeah,funny how since we're not able to get out in our cars on meets,etc ,plenty of us are spending money on doing work to our cars,lol.

I have done my Vanos /Rebuild and Upgrade,Timing chain upgraded new one, New Bosch Injectors and ignition coils,Schrick hi lift cams etc etc.
Oh,and its Insp.1 service,inc.valve clearances and various rpleacement shims,as well as new Spark plugs,lol
Got a new/ uprated clutch to go on at some point and a few other things, haha.
Mines running better than it has for a couple of years(had a sluggish start,rough idle and occasional mis-fire,plus a tendency to kangaroo in lower gears from slow to fast speeds, all that had previously gone un detected..by a few different garages,when it .was down to a combination of a slightly noisy Vanos, 3 injectors and ignition/coil packs needing renewed. All done now,and feeling great :D :driving:
 
The Quaife LSD seems to confer an extra feeling of security that’s hard to explain but just gives it that unconditional ‘on rails’ type feel..

Clearly the N20 is not going to overwhelm the chassis like a remapped N54 could anyway..but on public roads losing even a bit of control is not good, obviously the DSC normally does a good job of preventing that but at the expense of interrupting the flow of the charge..

The M3 arms again impart a feel of directness and control but by now these are all little improvements on what I consider a well controlled chassis anyway :thumbsup:

As you know I had planned about 45 days of serious Z4 hooning..so all the focus was on a year’s worth of capability and capacity..

So it’s about as well sorted as it can be I think ..we’re up to a 99% level of optimisation for a fast road car that still is very very comfortable to cruise/potter :driving:

Sounds like you’ve spent a shed load of money n time on the Z4M...should be running very sweetly..

How does the new cams affect things ?

Given the gap between Scotland and England looks like phase 3 where we can go for unlimited drives is still sometime in July earliest?
 
Yeah,Peter,
As said,I had a "wish list" of things I wanted to get done to the car for a couple of years or so now.

Things I have wanted to get fixed,that I had previously tried to get sorted,but 2 "specialists" had failed to locate/resolve!!
That being the Kangarooing at low to moderate speeds in lower gears,plus the Rough idle,extra long time it took to settle at idle from cold,and a slightly noisy Vanos.

The Vanos could have been probably left for another year or so,but tbh not worth the risk,as by the time it gets to a groaning noise,it can be prone to breaking,and junking the engine at the same time...so money well spent.
Timing chain was a no brained at the bargain supply and fit price it was done for when doing Vanos upgrade/renewal stuff.
Got new Spacers and Hub extenders to go on once the former arrive from the States. Just a minor issue,but one I want to resolve re my existing Spacers. Again,just a minor niggle,lived with it for a few years,but thought I would take the hit now while in Lockdown,lol.

Bought new Front Discs and Pads for next year/as I renew these every 3 years,as they are prone to warping etc on the M's,especially with spirited use,despite getting renewed every 15k miles.

As for the Cams,it was something I couldn't pass up,given the bargain I got them for,and although used for track based m3,they only have done 26k miles ,and have minimal signs of wear. :D

Its had replacement (used) Schrick followers etc as well as a remap set up to allow for the fact I kept the existing airbox,and didn't upgrade it also,as is recommended.
As is,the car should give around 370/375 brake with this kit,but if I did the CSL type airbox,it would give a reliable 380/385 bhp,so I am told.
A couple of BMW /specialist mechs I have spoke to regularly see 380+ from good,low mileage/well cared for csl's,or those running these kits with a CSL airbox.
The cams and followers are £1400-1500 and £800 respectively.... Plus labour of around £5-600...so around £2,200-ish new,plus fitting, and I got mine for £800 with free fitting,(sort of),so felt it was worth it. Already had a map on it/Power tune,which just got a Write over,so I was told.
It had been done to give a smoother torque/slight increase in bhp too,plus it removed the Speed limiter,done years ago.
Been advised to change to Race spec oil though,which needs changing every 7k miles....not a problem though,as i change it Annually/every 5k miles.
The kit on mine is fast road/race spec,not too aggressive...there are other cam sets from Shrick that need various other parts replaced, and give another 10-20 bhp on top of these,but not worth it,as these ones are safe for the existing engine components.

Yeah,spent a wee bit,but probably not as much as yourself with you Quaffe diff, m3 sway bars,etc etc,lol.
Once I get new brakes and the clutch kit fitted over the next year or 2,then its the bodywork/front end respray,full pro detail,ceramic coat,etc etc.
Never ending haha.
But the cars not really depreciating,so no harm in renewing bits as preventative maintenance and getting rid of some small niggles,poor starting,etc...its definitely been worth it.
Can't praise Mr.Vanos /Steve,enough, for his work on it in April,upgrading all Vanos components, as well as Timing chain,and renewing Plugs,Coil Pack's etc which all combined to fix the Poor starting(along with replenishment of battery cells via an AGM ctek charger unit I had bought and used prior to vanos work).
Rough idle,and slow settle both fixed,noisy vanos gone,Timing chain no longer slack.......
Misfire gone.
Valve clearances and shims also done by Steve/Mr.Vanos :thumbsup:
Car driving very well now :D :driving:


Oh,and I intend getting All new,OEM/BMW Suspension,bushes, Springs/shocks etc,when funds allow :rofl:
Then it will be good for another 12 years :D
 
Mr Vanos seems a good guy from what I can see..I did think about taking my N20 issues to him. not sure if he's up with the newer stuff? :tumbleweed:

Sounds like the Z4M is a keeper wiith that amount of love being expended? :thumbsup:

Not a big fan of the Jaaaaggggs or Porksters so looks like we wil be in the same camp for some time? :rofl:

If you can only update your satnav now to avoid turning up at the wrong place its all sorted! :rofl: :poke:
 
Pbondar said:
H&R ARB on middle rear setting
Pbondar (or any one else for that matter), have you tried the inner or outer setting on the rear H&R ARB? I am about to change mine too and common sense says go down the middle - just wondering if anyone has experience of either the softer or harder setting and what they thought of it? Thanks.
 
stijohnny said:
Pbondar said:
H&R ARB on middle rear setting
Pbondar (or any one else for that matter), have you tried the inner or outer setting on the rear H&R ARB? I am about to change mine too and common sense says go down the middle - just wondering if anyone has experience of either the softer or harder setting and what they thought of it? Thanks.

Hi there, I just left it on the middle setting as suggested as it seems to work and its a faff to change it..
 
Pbondar said:
stijohnny said:
Pbondar said:
H&R ARB on middle rear setting
Pbondar (or any one else for that matter), have you tried the inner or outer setting on the rear H&R ARB? I am about to change mine too and common sense says go down the middle - just wondering if anyone has experience of either the softer or harder setting and what they thought of it? Thanks.

Hi there, I just left it on the middle setting as suggested as it seems to work and its a faff to change it..

Did you really notice a difference over the standard bars when you fitted the H&R's?
 
I changed the ARBs/Wheels/Tyres/Shocks all at the same time, so I can't say definitively whether they made a difference in isolation..

The composite result was a marked improvement...

Certainly the concept of 'roll' in the car is now a distant memory.. :thumbsup:
 
Pbondar said:
I changed the ARBs/Wheels/Tyres/Shocks all at the same time, so I can't say definitively whether they made a difference in isolation..

The composite result was a marked improvement...

Certainly the concept of 'roll' in the car is now a distant memory.. :thumbsup:
Pbondar said:
I changed the ARBs/Wheels/Tyres/Shocks all at the same time, so I can't say definitively whether they made a difference in isolation..

The composite result was a marked improvement...

Certainly the concept of 'roll' in the car is now a distant memory.. :thumbsup:

Good to hear, ARB's and M3 arms are my next mods after the remap and possible de-cat pipe I'm plotting. Then I'm done, honest! :rofl:
On the subject of mods I managed to get my hands on some 5mm spacers and fitted them all round. For anyone wondering aesthetically the car does look a little better, a bit more than I'd though a small slither of a spacer would make. My Zito's are 18" Front 8.5" et35 and Rear 9.5" et40". My main reason for fitting them on the front was to get back to as close to the original scrub radius on the front. The original wheels are et29 front, so by fitting these I've got back to close to that with et30 as well as improve the look by filling the arches slightly more. On the rear I've read a number of posts saying et35 was about the limit on the E89 with this wheel width so I followed that advice. Took it out two up on some of the bumpy twisties close to home and its been fine with no arch rub etc. Adding 5mm positive back to the scrub radius has made a fair old difference. The steering is noticeably heavier with more feel and feedback. Turn in feels a tad sharper but I think that's just the better feel and feedback rather than an actual improvement. Basically I'm getting exactly what you'd expect with an increase in positive scrub radius so no real surprise. The car feels completely different now on PS4 225/40 & 255/35 to how it did on the same wheels with no spacers and 225/45 & 255/40 F1 AS3 tyres. Its amazing really how much difference some simple changes can make.
 
Thnx for the update, I'm still waiting for the 5mm front spacers..I've re-re chased them just now..

I assume the rear 5mm spacers are primarily cosmetic in their effects?
 
Pbondar said:
Thnx for the update, I'm still waiting for the 5mm front spacers..I've re-re chased them just now..

I assume the rear 5mm spacers are primarily cosmetic in their effects?

They are, seeing as most seem to opt for et35 with 9.5" width rear wheels on the E89, instead of the et40 I have and I was putting some on the front anyway, I thought why not! :D
 
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