Handling Issues - me or the car?

[Anonymous]

I think that the general consensus is check/change the old bits (they are 17yo afterall) and concentrate on my method and hopefully improve. Although the term 'old dogs, new tricks' does spring to mind :wink:

Someone has mentioned to change the lower arm, is this necessary? can the bushes be changed without changing the whole arm?
Also, pardon my ignorance, but what are the lollipops? I presumed they were on the rear subframe.. :scratchhead:

 

[enuff_zed]

It doesn't sound right and if it's squirming whilst braking before the bend (i.e. in a straight line)

Ah, ok, I may have misread it then.
I thought it was 'squirming' once off the brakes and into the bend.

Whatever the cause, there are a few 'free' things that can be eliminated before the spending starts.

 

[enuff_zed]

Another thought..................... any advisories on the previous MOT?
Sometimes they'll mention bushes starting to deteriorate. Then you buy the car and sure enough they soon give up completely.
Ask me how I know. :roll:

The lollipops are the bushes that the rear 'pin' of the front wishbones locate in.

 

[Anonymous]

It doesn't sound right and if it's squirming whilst braking before the bend (i.e. in a straight line) I would systematically go through examining parts and eliminating them in a rough order of likelihood before spending randomly. Applying logic that the problem starts at the contact patch between road and tyre from experience having had to correct all the below over the years I would, check

Hopefully you have access to a decent jack and stands, in which case all the above can be examined with a wheel removed. Let us know how it goes and don't be tempted to address possible electric power steering problems that will inevitably be suggested until you are sure all the above basics are covered-off. Once sorted it will be like it's on rails

Excellent advice and fortuntely i have a large garage with all the tools. I just need to finish the current project before i can park the Z4 in there and have a proper look. But, its not in a straight line the car squirms, its as i go into a bend. The discs (and presumably the pads) all look to be in pretty good nick. The discs have been changed to a vented type, so definitely newer. Hopefully the previous owners will be along soon to clarify. Or, i could just go the through stack of receipts... :roll:

 

[Ewazix]

I think that the general consensus is check/change the old bits (they are 17yo afterall) and concentrate on my method and hopefully improve. Although the term 'old dogs, new tricks' does spring to mind :wink:

Someone has mentioned to change the lower arm, is this necessary? can the bushes be changed without changing the whole arm?
Also, pardon my ignorance, but what are the lollipops? I presumed they were on the rear subframe.. :scratchhead:

Pelican Parts guide is always a good starter for common jobs and explains about the lollypops
https://www.pelicanparts.com/techarticles/BMW_Z4M/119-SUSPEN-Front_Control_Arm_Bushing/119-SUSPEN-Front_Control_Arm_Bushing.htm

 

[bigwinn]

I think that the general consensus is check/change the old bits (they are 17yo afterall) and concentrate on my method and hopefully improve. Although the term 'old dogs, new tricks' does spring to mind :wink:

Someone has mentioned to change the lower arm, is this necessary? can the bushes be changed without changing the whole arm?
Also, pardon my ignorance, but what are the lollipops? I presumed they were on the rear subframe.. :scratchhead:

I've done all front end suspension over the last few months bud, if you want a write up etc I'll sit down and do one

Most can be done with basic tools, youtube guides and top tips from here!

Lower control arms are fairly simple and easier if you do the lollipops in the same job, that made a huge difference to my front end control issues, along with shocks, other bushes and getting rid of the damn runflats

 

[Anonymous]

Most can be done with basic tools, youtube guides and top tips from here!

and in my case a reasonable amount of shouting and swearing?

 

[enuff_zed]

Just looking back through the posts, the original Sale thread for your car does state 'Sports Springs for a slightly firmer and lower ride'.
It also states that the lollipop bushes were done, but not sure how recent that was?
Of course, with old cars, replacing one bush just puts more pressure on the rest and they usually follow close behind.

 

[bigwinn]

Most can be done with basic tools, youtube guides and top tips from here!

and in my case a reasonable amount of shouting and swearing?

I recommend downloading either urban dictionary or Rogers Thesaurus to help select some class swearies when it goes wrong

Keeps the neighbours entertained

 

[ErrErrminator]

In my two and a half year ownership of this car I never experienced handling characteristics like you are describing Graham. It always felt surefooted and apart from the occasional slight tramlining on poor road surfaces I never had any cause for concern.

I will say is that the recent change of rear tyres did make it feel a little bit ‘different’, but I put this down to the need for them to bed in and perhaps the need for a bit of playing around with tyre pressures as I know they can be very sensitive to this. As you know the tyres probably had less than 100 miles on them.

Another thought is that the new rear tyres are Uniroyal Rainsport 5. The older fronts are Rainsport 4. I wouldn’t have thought there is a significant difference in the tread pattern and compound, unlike running different make tyres front and rear which I know can have a detrimental effect on handling. At the time matching RS4s were not available.

Regarding shocks, springs, brakes and suspension components, my ad covered the work which I understood to have been done, all by owners prior to me. My work on the car was the cosmetic bits, plus brake pipes and cooling system components. Digidick and ScoobyR1 maybe able to shed some light plus there should be some invoices in the folder of paperwork you have.

 

[patriot66]

What pressure do you guys run your tyres at on the e86/86 platform with non-runflats?

I have only realised a year in that the pressure guide on the inside of the drivers door is for runflats...

I have often been driving at 170 and 130 I believe...

170 psi ? 170 bar ? 170 kpa ? Surely not ?
I run mine at 2.1bar/30.45psi in the fronts and 2.3bar/33.35psi in the rears (18" 225/40 front and 18" 255/35 rear). You can always go up or down a bit, just keep an eye on tyre wear though. Don't get your psi, bar and kpa mixed up whatever you do. Easy enough to remember Atmospheric Pressure (at sea level ) is 1 bar which is also 14.5 psi and 100 kpa(kilopascal)

 

[Deleted member 32480]

What pressure do you guys run your tyres at on the e86/86 platform with non-runflats?

I have only realised a year in that the pressure guide on the inside of the drivers door is for runflats...

I have often been driving at 170 and 130 I believe...

170 psi ? 170 bar ? 170 kpa ? Surely not ?
I run mine at 2.1bar/30.45psi in the fronts and 2.3bar/33.35psi in the rears (18" 225/40 front and 18" 255/35 rear). You can always go up or down a bit, just keep an eye on tyre wear though. Don't get your psi, bar and kpa mixed up whatever you do. Easy enough to remember Atmospheric Pressure (at sea level ) is 1 bar which is also 14.5 psi and 100 kpa(kilopascal)

Would love to see someone drive with 170psi or 170 bar

I think it translates to 36 psi and 39 psi from memory. What ever it states on the inside of the car door. It's in bar and kpa from memory which I think for example 1.7 bar is 170kpa?

I have ran other non BMW cars at 32 and 34 psi and thought that BMW advised it was a bit high but just followed the instructions. Makes sense that runflats need a bit more air.

I will drop it down tomorrow. Thank you.

 

[Anonymous]

In my two and a half year ownership of this car I never experienced handling characteristics like you are describing Graham. It always felt surefooted and apart from the occasional slight tramlining on poor road surfaces I never had any cause for concern.

Probably my size 13's that are causing it then.......

tbh, if the shocks are original then for piece of mind i will change them. Winter is just round the corner so it seems an opportune time to get it in the garage, jack it up and check out the underneath plus it will stop me driving like an idiot on the inclement roads!!

As you say, cosmetically its a time warp (apart from when i slightly curbed one of the alloys last weekend ) but i would like to get the wheel arch covers off and waxoyl anything exposed underneath. At the very least the handbrake needs looking at....

Also, ive nearly all the components for a complete stereo upgrade. Now that im definitely looking forward to!

 

[Anonymous]

Ok, now that ive owned the car for more than 5 seconds, im starting to get a feel of whats going on. Its definitely the front causing the problems both in corners and on occasion, the approach to corners. If theres anything to upset the car (tramlines, bumps, heavy footed breaking etc) then the car starts wobbling around and feeling unstable at the front. One particular brown stain moment was hitting some tramlines just before the bend and as i was already committed, i tried to correct the change in direction and the car really, really didnt like it. To me, thats damping problems (pilot induced oscillations anybody?) and coupled with my enthusiasm>talent>experience formula i decided to take the car off the road and at the very least change the dampers before something serious happens. So tapping into the vast resource on here, what should i add to my shopping list?

So far:
B4 Shocks - done
Anti roll bar bushes (oem rubber not polybush) - done

and heres where i need some help
Can i just change the ball joints on the front trailing arms or is it better/advisable to just buy new ones?

Anything else to buy before i start stripping it down?

Thanks in advance RC

 

[TheDan]

Can i just change the ball joints on the front trailing arms or is it better/advisable to just buy new ones?

For the front lower control arm unless a Meyle HD arm is fitted the ball joints are not removable I believe. It would therefore be best to replace the arm itself (including lollipop bushes as these may also be wearing and causing wayward handling issues).

I recently replaced my front LCAs and whilst being quite a pain to get the ball joints out wasn't too bad of a job.

Most importantly I would do the work you are planning and then get a reputable place to do an alignment, this will probably make the biggest difference.

In terms of anything else causing the issues, I tend to like to change one or two things at a time so that I know how its affecting/improving the feel of the car. Next on your list would probably be top mounts (if not done with the shocks) and RTABs (can cause some very weird handling problems if they are badly worn).

 

[Thrustyjust]

You dont need to change arms and links and bushes . Just check them for wear and replace as needed. I had an alignment done and he said front lollipops are tired, so replaced them and got it checked again. Also wiht lowering , causes issues with geo. I would first start with a geo check. It may give more insight into what is wrong. Someone previous had set up the rear with some scatty toe in, which made the whole thing nervous and unhappy. Cost me £50 to have set up and then when I went back with the lollipop bushes and spring heights raised a tad, he did it for nothing. So worth doing as the cheapest thing to do.

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks. The dampers are going to be changed regardless so its a matter of while its all in bits etc etc. Bushes arent expensive items so to me its worth doing as preventative rather than corrective. Plus, im not putting the car back on the road until winter has subsided (i live the countryside and the roads round here are shocking in the winter) so time isnt really an issue and im quite happy in my garage with the music playing. Especially if the inlaws and their associated rugrats turn up for xmas..... :x :x

Absolutely on the geo. Thats my number one call as soon as the car is back together. With the lowered springs its probably definitely worth it.

PS i should add, this is all just for the front this time. The rear is Februarys job!

 

[Anonymous]

Right, update!

Took a while, not least because Autodoc sent the wrong parts and thanks to brexit with the associated paperwork, it took nearly a month to sort out. But the story so far:

Front
New B4's and upper shock mounts (old sachs ones were proper goosed and leaking)
New ARB bushes
New Track Rod Ends
New Drop Links
New Brake Hoses

Rear
New B4's and upper shock mounts
New Lower Tracking Arms and bushes
New upper Track Arm Outer Ball Joints
New Brake Hoses/shoes/discs
New RTA Bushes.
New ARB Bushes

And after a quick trip to the local BMW repair centre for a Hunter 4WA, the guy said after trying 3 times, something still didnt feel quite right on hard tight bends. Hmmm doesnt sound good and i did wonder just how hard he was driving it!!! The 4wa actually measured fine and the car is straight as a die with a 0deg thrust angle so no problems there but his comments did worry me slightly. (i was a bit annoyed that he didnt really investigate but hey ho) His conclusion was that it was just an old car and that must be how it is.....

So on the way home, i thought the car felt great. The suspension has definitely tamed a lot of the issues and taking it round the county lanes was an absolute joy. Until a motorbike came up my arse. Never been one to back down, i started gunning it and the pair of us were having a hoot until i came across the same dreaded corner as before. No worries i thought, been here, done that. Well, f**k me did the car get all upset and started exhibiting the same behaviour as before! Hard into the corner it started rolling about like something possessed but luckily no where near as bad as before which i presume was down to the B4's. The rider must have laughed his head off!

Im now thinking lollipops, they have supposed to have done before but im wondering if they are either cheap ones or already knackered. Does that sound feasible?