Guns aren't toys

[JaEdBa]

It's funny how, well it's not funny at all, but anyway, how when we look at gun ownership we always pick on the good old USA and forget about this

isn't that indicative of a more fundamental difference in general culture? after all the kid in that picture could just as easily be doing 3 times as many working hours a week than the average adult male in our country.

 

[stupot67]

As Big dog says the right to bear arms is written into the US constitution and is not going to change whatever we think. What we in the UK find so hard to believe is just how easy it is for people to get hold of guns legally in the US with little or no justifiable cause other than self protection from whoever you may see as a threat - Surely that's a job for plod and the authorities.................unless of course they're the threat, and were back to the 2nd amendment.
Stu.

 

[bigdog]

I don't really mind if the government wants to track my endless eBay purchases and z4 forum discussions. I honestly don't see how carrying arms will protect you against a corrupt government. Probably just means that if you become too much of a problem you will be found to have committed 'suicide' with your own gun .

You should mind if the government wants to intrude into your personal life with out a reason. Should a cop be allowed to pull you over just to have a look around your car and remove your interior to check for drugs. Just because they felt like it? Should the police be allowed to enter your home? Just to make sure your not doing anything illegal?

Well, There are 3-4 hundred million guns in America. So you're assertion that it's just me against the a corrupt government ends up not being as one sided as you might have thought. Of course the best way to run a government out of town is for the folks to simply stop paying their taxes.

Stu. It is a touchy issue. I don't want criminals to have guns. I nor most other gun owners do not mind at all having a background criminal check either. What most gun owners object to is a national gun registry where the government has a list of names and addresses of lawful gun owners, Along with a whole sale ban on the type of weapons that would be useful to fight a tyrannical power. That is what almost happened to the American colonists. In April 1775 on orders from the Crown, British soldiers marched west from their station in Boston to Lexington and Concord. They were to confiscate colonial weapons and gunpowder.

 

[the cueball]

@ bigdog - I totally agree with you about government intrusion... the whole "patriot act" is nothing short of a disgrace and an erosion on the American public’s freedom (IMO)... we have similar in our "anti-terror laws"... Most people are happy though, because most "demanded" something be done after certain things that may or may not have been false flag attacks by governments on their own people (another topic mind you)....




However, the 2nd amendment it's not just about protection from government, it’s the right to protect oneself and use arms in that self-defence… however, as pointed out by the Supreme Court:

“It protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defence within the home.

The right is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose.

They also clarified that many longstanding prohibitions and restrictions on firearms possession listed by the Court are consistent with the Second Amendment. “

I think some Americans believe (or at least act like) they have “the right” to walk down a main street with an anti-air craft gun, under the “freedom” of the 2nd amendment… not the case…

Also may be worth pointing out that this “right to bear arms” was basically taken from English Bill of Rights 1689:

“That the Subjects which are Protestants may have Arms for their Defense suitable to their Conditions and as allowed by Law”

In the UK, this law, although still in place, has largely been eroded by further statute (Pistols act 1903, Firearms Act 1920, 1968, 1982, 1988, 1997 (amendment to ’88 act), Anti-Social Behaviour Act 2003, and the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994)

The change in the Firearms act in 1988 and 1997 were after the terrible shootings of Hungerford and Dunblane.

It feels like the UK has moved with “the times” and took note of nutters that shoot people, whilst I don’t see the US doing the same thing…

I’m not saying they are “happy” to leave things as they are, but they don’t appear to be worried about a few kids and other innocent people being shot up from time to time… as long as their “rights” remain…

 

[RubyBlueZ4MC]

When I initially saw this thread I read "guys aren't toys" :lol:

If you want us to be toys then toys we are! Now come on girls....

PLAY WITH US !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

PS - no jokes about shooting blanks allowed.

:lol:

 

[Nondizzyblonde]

bigdog, interestingly and not a lot of people know this gun ownership is widespread in Germany and it ranks 4th internationally in terms of amount of privately owned guns. There are, however, relatively few gun deaths per capita every year due to the tight legislation. http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/germany . Personally, I would not be willing to trade of the deaths of innocent civilians, including children, to some kind of naive notion that I would be able to take on the government along with 2.5 million other Germans......
BTW I think it's the fuelling of paranoia that allows governments to introduce legislation such as the patriot act and the anti terror laws. It's not gun ownership that is needed but raising of awareness of issues raised by such legislation.
On a completely different note, it boggles my mind, why Britain is so scared of 'Europe' - personally I am more scared of the power America has over us.

 

[Mowflow]

Dear Mr Bigdog,

I know you are American and do not class you or all Americans as "idiots". The comment was made in jest rather than getting into the whole "it's my right" discussion again as it's been done to death on here. Perhaps I should have used some of these Would that have worked???? :thumbsdown:

I remember the gun discussion and your opinions from the last time and since this thread didn't involve discussing the massacre of defenceless children at the hands of a heavily armed mental case I thought i would make a joke comment in a slight attempt to goad the American gun lovers that i know are on here. I added the last comment to try to make the joke element clear and hopefully prevent the other hypersensitive users from shouting "Nazi" "racist" etc. Fair enough, it wasn't a very funny joke and probably quite stupid of me to goad a highly armed nation... idiots or not :wink:

I get the whole thing about the 2nd amendment but surely as an ex military man you can see that if the government decided to f**k with you any amount of automatic weaponry, assault rifles etc would be about as effective as flicking pees at a bear? The government could probably vaporise your whole neighbourhood from a bunker in the Holy Loch at the push of a button.

Anywho. No disrespect meant (incase the tongue in my cheek gets lost again).

 

[Jembo]

anyway... guns don't kill people.... it's people (or wappppppers), guns just get the blame..... a bit like how 'speed' kills you...

Of all the comments think the one above that sums it up the best.

I've used firearms, even once in Miami years ago... and the whole event there was treated & dumbed down similar to munching a Mars (candy) bar or eating at MacDonalds, rather than appreciating how lethal, especially hand guns, can be.

It's education that's needed, though to those who need it most see it as relevant so don't want to listen - catch 22

 

[bigdog]

Dear Mr Bigdog,

I know you are American and do not class you or all Americans as "idiots". The comment was made in jest rather than getting into the whole "it's my right" discussion again as it's been done to death on here. Perhaps I should have used some of these Would that have worked???? :thumbsdown:

I remember the gun discussion and your opinions from the last time and since this thread didn't involve discussing the massacre of defenceless children at the hands of a heavily armed mental case I thought i would make a joke comment in a slight attempt to goad the American gun lovers that i know are on here. I added the last comment to try to make the joke element clear and hopefully prevent the other hypersensitive users from shouting "Nazi" "racist" etc. Fair enough, it wasn't a very funny joke and probably quite stupid of me to goad a highly armed nation... idiots or not :wink:

I get the whole thing about the 2nd amendment but surely as an ex military man you can see that if the government decided to f**k with you any amount of automatic weaponry, assault rifles etc would be about as effective as flicking pees at a bear? The government could probably vaporise your whole neighbourhood from a bunker in the Holy Loch at the push of a button.

Anywho. No disrespect meant (incase the tongue in my cheek gets lost again).

Fair enough Mowflow. I will concede that there have always been, Are , And will continue to be idiots that will get hold of a gun, A fast car, A fast motorcycle. Then do stupid things with them resulting in harm to others. Stupidity is an equal opportunity employer.

But as a military man. I can tell you this. The American military forces would be very, very difficult to be convinced by a politician to attack their own family and fellow citizens. I know the gun debate has been done to death (no pun intended). But It is and will always be a relevant subject. As old and tiresome as this debate seems to get. We can and should talk about this and many other sensitive issues. That's how we learn and maybe come to moderate our positions or at least understand the opinion of those that disagree. And it goes to the heart of what is or what should freedom be. And at what cost. It also dovetails with a variety of other "cost of freedom" subjects.

Should we be free to buy a car that can do double the national speed limit of most nations? Just think of all the lives that could be saved by limiting the speed on a car to the posted limit as set forth in your Government installed GPS black box. Would those that support gun bans to save lives support such a speed control black box? All in the interest of saving lives of course.

What of alcohol? Should it be banned? OPPS!! We Americans already tried that one. That led to the proliferation of the big mob families. But. Just think of all the lives that an alcohol ban could save. In America. The number of dead from alcohol related auto accidents is nearly the same as ALL gun deaths. If you look at all auto deaths in America. It's three times the number killed by guns. Add in all alcohol related deaths. Guns start to pale by comparison.

Abortion? Boy there's an issue almost as hot as the gun debate. Seems odd to me that with all the discussion from political anti-gun groups tugging at the heart strings by uttering the following. "but what of the children" to support a gun ban. The debate is then shut right down when abortion comes up. Fact is. Abortion is legal. Just as gun ownership is legal. Sadly, Abortion will always result in the death of a potential child. But that is the cost of a woman having the freedom of choice in her health issues. Equally sadly, Gun ownership will sometimes result in the death of a child or innocent person. One can look up the numbers to make comparisons of the two.

I always try to look at the big picture. We as people seemingly always pick to ban or limit the thing that we think will not effect us personally. It boils down to NIMBY. Not In My Back Yard. I think that's why most folks that support gun bans to save lives. Are quick to dismiss other possibly life saving issues like banning alcohol, Fast vehicles, Smoking, Abortion.

Simply put. A free people will always pay a high price for their freedom. Or we can give up our freedom and step into that hermetically sealed plastic bubble that protects us from ourselves. What if everyone born only died of old age? No disease, No war, No murders. Would there be sufficient resources on this earth to house and feed the enormous population that would result? Maybe the government would have to then institute a "Logans run" or "soylent green" solution. Great movies by the way. Or the Ministry of world population issuance of "procreation permits". So there is even a potentially "high price" to pay should we solve all our violence and disease issues.

To NDB. I see a bit conflict in your statement about the US having power over Britain. You don't seem to have a problem with the same folks spying on your private activities. The two things are most assuredly connected. If you tell them you don't mind them spying on you. "as you have nothing to hide" they will of course come to the conclusion that you support the other totalitarian, Intrusive, Bullying things they do. Such as telling other nations what to do. The EU was sold to the folks as a free trade type of system. But. It turns out that it is becoming a centralized government. Telling other nations in the EU what they can and can't do well beyond any trade issues. Which is precisely what you took issue with concerning the US government. You would say you are partially correct about Germany. But as a person who lives in Germany. The German youth are taught from an early age to respect others. I think that has a very large effect on the actions that they take as they grow up.

As always. I find the debate interesting.

 

[Nondizzyblonde]

Part of the reason I am pro Europe is the fact that I am German, but primarily consider myself a European like a lot of my compatriots. I just happen to be married to a UK national. As for the US spying on me, I presume all governments do including the British, which is why one more doesn't make a lot of difference. Also in the line of work my husband is in, I am fairly certain that everything I and we as a family do is pretty much monitored. As someone in the UK pointed out this week, what was surprising to him is not that there was a whistleblower regarding the way we are monitored, but the fact that we are surprised at the fact they do !
It is interesting how you talk about "the government" as an entity and anthropomorphising it. I suspect most of the time, even "the government" is in fact made up of lots of different departments and factions with a fair amount of in fighting going on, and one side not knowing what the other is doing.

 

[bigdog]

Part of the reason I am pro Europe is the fact that I am German, but primarily consider myself a European like a lot of my compatriots. I just happen to be married to a UK national. As for the US spying on me, I presume all governments do including the British, which is why one more doesn't make a lot of difference. Also in the line of work my husband is in, I am fairly certain that everything I and we as a family do is pretty much monitored. As someone in the UK pointed out this week, what was surprising to him is not that there was a whistleblower regarding the way we are monitored, but the fact that we are surprised at the fact they do !
It is interesting how you talk about "the government" as an entity and anthropomorphising it. I suspect most of the time, even "the government" is in fact made up of lots of different departments and factions with a fair amount of in fighting going on, and one side not knowing what the other is doing.

I quite agree that there is a tremendous amount of infighting amongst government agencies. But one aspect where all government agencies are in agreement. Is the quest for more power. It's the nature of humans in general. I find it interesting that you have such a cavalier attitude about government spying on it's citizens. Especially given the history of your own countries past problems with "the government" to include the Stasi of the east. Yet here we are discussing what happens when after years of the wide distribution of weapons. What do we do about said weapons when they fall into the hands of a relatively small group of troublesome people. I would think the same applies to governments or agencies within said government. Think of it this way. What does one do if the authorities have a wonderful high speed road that is perfectly smooth but suddenly ends without warning at the edge of a cliff? After having driven off the cliff is probably not the time to look at that road map wondering what the hell just happened. By the time we find out that the authorities have to much power and have started to abuse said power. It's to late. Or at least very difficult to remedy.

Do you maintain your health so as to prevent future problems? Or do you wait until something goes wrong before trying to fix it. In your profession. Would you not recommend to your patients that they deal with emotional issues before they grow to big to handle? Or just worry about it after they have suffered a psychotic episode or a nervous breakdown.
Wouldn't the same apply to the folks concerning their government and the agencies within?