Lightning87
Member
nice 
any power figure this will bring you ? ( nice rims btw never seen them fit so nice to a E85 )
any power figure this will bring you ? ( nice rims btw never seen them fit so nice to a E85 )
ESS TS3 Engine Rebuild
- Thread starter Alun1976
- Start date
MotorcyclesFish
Member
Some random ideas re. the fluttering timing in gear:
1. are there individual gear position sensors internal to the gearbox or does the car calculate from engine/wheel speed differential? May be worth checking
2. wheel imbalance hitting resonant frequency and triggering TCS/backing off timing if wheel skewed
3. wiring routed near to gear stick could be being disturbed in 3rd gear position (not sure if there *is* any wiring like this but worth checking)
4. emissions test point or car adaptive learning adapted to an abnormal pattern
5. usual earth strap nonsense
6. check front and rear of car for renault or citroen badges
1. are there individual gear position sensors internal to the gearbox or does the car calculate from engine/wheel speed differential? May be worth checking
2. wheel imbalance hitting resonant frequency and triggering TCS/backing off timing if wheel skewed
3. wiring routed near to gear stick could be being disturbed in 3rd gear position (not sure if there *is* any wiring like this but worth checking)
4. emissions test point or car adaptive learning adapted to an abnormal pattern
5. usual earth strap nonsense
6. check front and rear of car for renault or citroen badges
Sorry I haven't been on for a while, have just started a new job and time is sparse.
The job is kind of on hold at the moment as I have run into a little problem. ESS have advised that they are unable to supply me the TS3 software for my car. They supply it for the MS43 equipped cars only and not those with the MS45 ECU. This has really done my head in as I was originally told that the software was indeed available and was also given a quote. I therfore went ahead with the engine build knowing the software was allegedly available.
What this means now is either swapping out the ECU such that I am running the MS43 system or to buy a standalone system which unfortunately is a really expensive piece of kit. I have therefore got myself the MS43 ECU complete with harness and everything else but am starting to doubt whether the different ECU will be compatible with my instrument cluster and whether DSC will work. There is someone else doing the MS45 to MS43 conversion on another forum and I am waiting to see how this turns out before pursuing it further. The engine is virtually rebuilt, just need to lap valves in cylinder head and torque down to block. I will take some more pics and post soon and keep you all updated. One way or another, this TS3 engine build won't be going to waste.
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The job is kind of on hold at the moment as I have run into a little problem. ESS have advised that they are unable to supply me the TS3 software for my car. They supply it for the MS43 equipped cars only and not those with the MS45 ECU. This has really done my head in as I was originally told that the software was indeed available and was also given a quote. I therfore went ahead with the engine build knowing the software was allegedly available.
What this means now is either swapping out the ECU such that I am running the MS43 system or to buy a standalone system which unfortunately is a really expensive piece of kit. I have therefore got myself the MS43 ECU complete with harness and everything else but am starting to doubt whether the different ECU will be compatible with my instrument cluster and whether DSC will work. There is someone else doing the MS45 to MS43 conversion on another forum and I am waiting to see how this turns out before pursuing it further. The engine is virtually rebuilt, just need to lap valves in cylinder head and torque down to block. I will take some more pics and post soon and keep you all updated. One way or another, this TS3 engine build won't be going to waste.
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pokeybritches
Member
Sorry to hear about your trouble. However, you do have another option - a custom tune on the stock ECU.
Frank Smith tuned a friend's poorly running VF570 kit on his Z4M and got everything sorted. He has a pretty positive reputation. Nick Glantzis is another, who created Technique Tuning (only E46 turbo kits tuned for the stock ECU that I know of). Active Autowerke used to have a twin screw kit, and they will take on custom projects (be aware that they do not tune competitor kits, to avoid "forum drama"... so you wipl have to describe it as a custom project utilizing x compression ratio and a Lysolm blower).
Frank Smith tuned a friend's poorly running VF570 kit on his Z4M and got everything sorted. He has a pretty positive reputation. Nick Glantzis is another, who created Technique Tuning (only E46 turbo kits tuned for the stock ECU that I know of). Active Autowerke used to have a twin screw kit, and they will take on custom projects (be aware that they do not tune competitor kits, to avoid "forum drama"... so you wipl have to describe it as a custom project utilizing x compression ratio and a Lysolm blower).
pokeybritches said:
I'm assuming the tuners you've mentioned are in the USA? Alun seems to be based in the UK.
I was going to suggest getting the MS45 custom tuned, there're people like Wayne at Chipwizards, Evolve etc. I'm very interested in how this progresses because I've arranged with ESS to pick up a TS2 kit next time I'm in Norway with the hope of upgrading the TS3 later on.
I always wondered why ESS don't list the TS3 kit on the E85 section of the website and assumed this was an oversight but now I know.
pokeybritches said:
alun... no need at all to put this on hold... evolve can and have done exactly what you need
they will live tune this on their dyno .... crack on with your project, tell them byron sent you... they've tuned numerous Fi bmws now with excellent results.It all depends on their experience.
I see names and sc kits here that are not available for the z4, which has a completely different ECU (different platform all together).
The ms45 is a difficult ecu to tune; AA doesnt even want to sell their kits for a z4 due to the tuning (I asked, and got contradicting answers due to that not everyone over there realized that it's not only the ducting for a sc that differs compared to a e46, the real trick lies in the ecu).
It's not like ess doesn't know where the afr/timing/injection mappings are in the data dump. It's that there are a lot of other things are going on with the ms45 when you tune high torque/high HP. There might be a reason that almost all other sc kits for the z4 stop at 350HP or so and that real high hp tunes use aftermarket ecu. Things like ping sensors, torque calculation etc are safety feature algorythems hidden between the mappings and not really discovered by tuning programs.
If it was that simple other manufacturers made high hp sc sets for the z4. It's not a hardware problem.
Being able to tune various bmw's doesnt say anything unless you have explicit experience with the ms45 ecu at ~400hp and above. And most tuners go alpha-n. I wouldn't want that personally.
I'm not saying that there arent tuner that might do a better or equally good job, but these are very specific problems.
As I am in the same boat as you are, I'm waiting until you figured out the wheel so I don't have to :lol: (and I have other upgrades to perform that will take some time
)
I see names and sc kits here that are not available for the z4, which has a completely different ECU (different platform all together).
The ms45 is a difficult ecu to tune; AA doesnt even want to sell their kits for a z4 due to the tuning (I asked, and got contradicting answers due to that not everyone over there realized that it's not only the ducting for a sc that differs compared to a e46, the real trick lies in the ecu).
It's not like ess doesn't know where the afr/timing/injection mappings are in the data dump. It's that there are a lot of other things are going on with the ms45 when you tune high torque/high HP. There might be a reason that almost all other sc kits for the z4 stop at 350HP or so and that real high hp tunes use aftermarket ecu. Things like ping sensors, torque calculation etc are safety feature algorythems hidden between the mappings and not really discovered by tuning programs.
If it was that simple other manufacturers made high hp sc sets for the z4. It's not a hardware problem.
Being able to tune various bmw's doesnt say anything unless you have explicit experience with the ms45 ecu at ~400hp and above. And most tuners go alpha-n. I wouldn't want that personally.
I'm not saying that there arent tuner that might do a better or equally good job, but these are very specific problems.
He does that on a e46 (I think you mean diablorojo on e46fanatics). So he comes from a ms45.1, not ms45, so if he gets his instrument binnacle to work doesnt necessarily mean that it will work on a z4.Alun1976 said:
As I am in the same boat as you are, I'm waiting until you figured out the wheel so I don't have to :lol: (and I have other upgrades to perform that will take some time
)From all the research I have done on this matter I have come to the same conclusion as GuidoK. The MS45 platform is just too complex to tune and may be one of the main reasons why the z4 isn't capable of being tuned for more than 350hp as GuidoK states. Another reason why the z4 is difficult to tune is because the fuel supply system is a constant pressure system and not a constant pressure differential system across the injectors.
That's right GuidoK, it is diablorojo I'm following on this matter. I don't think the MS45.1 is much different from the MS45 from what I've researched except the MS45.1 uses wideband lambda sensors. I am still looking into this and believe that it can be done swapping the MS45 45 for the MS43. The only real concern i have his whether the dynamic stability control will work. Also i don't know whether the ms 43 will be compatible with my instrument cluster.
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That's right GuidoK, it is diablorojo I'm following on this matter. I don't think the MS45.1 is much different from the MS45 from what I've researched except the MS45.1 uses wideband lambda sensors. I am still looking into this and believe that it can be done swapping the MS45 45 for the MS43. The only real concern i have his whether the dynamic stability control will work. Also i don't know whether the ms 43 will be compatible with my instrument cluster.
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Alun1976 said:
I don't think the absence of a vacuum controlled fuel pressure regulator is much of a problem to be honest. That only compensates for the mode idle/throttle. It probably doesnt see any difference between half throttle and full throttle. I think it mostly will give accurate&low emissions during Idle (so that that is it's main purpose, not to regulate constant presure during WOT, where the problems with the tune are). With vacuum controlled fpr you obviously need a different tune with different duty cycle for the injectors in the low revs, but that is something you program when the car is on the dyno. It's not that a vacuum controlled fpr will deliver more fuel or achieve a higher pressure or so. Imho a vacuum controlled fpr might solve the gas stench when starting up or the rough running (hickups) the first 10sec or so when the car is cold started and switches from closed loop to open loop after 1min.
But I might be wrong on all that because I haven't actually experimented between having a vacuum control on the fpr and not having it
I'm planning to fit a complete sensor system in my car including fuel pressure monitoring&logging and then I can see how much the fuel pressure differs during WOT etc. (that's something I'm working on this winter: fuel pressure, afr for both banks, exhaust temp, oil temp&pressure etc etc)
Personally I think the main part from the instrument cluster will work, as it's all PT-can (I think), but obviously I don't really know.
Stability control, sport button etc might be a different problem.
Do you expect any problems with the keys/ews etc? How does that all work? The ews is linked to the ecu obviously, and is key specific. So with a new ecu comes a new ews&keys.
Do you have new keys, and will they fit the locks and work with the central locking or does that all have to be programmed (and do you know how that works in SSS?)
My understanding of this was of poor atomisation of fuel from the injectors at high boost manifold pressures if a constant pressure differential system isn't used. The design of nozzles into pipes are such to operate within certain pressure differentials depending on several variables governed by the laws of fluid mechanics such as nozzle angle, temperature, mass flow rate in pipe, mass flow rate through nozzle, curvature, pressures and several other factors. That is just my understanding but I too may be wrong as I'm unable to check the design of such system and never really had any experience with such.
Also, running a constant pressure fuel delivery system would mean high injector opening times at high boost to ensure adequate fuel delivery. Again, I haven't done any calculation of this but it may be the case that such high injector opening times at high boost pressure and high RPM may be a limiting factor for a constant pressure fuel delivery system.
With regards to the EWS, I bought a complete harness, ECU, EWS and lock and key set including ignition barrel all from the same car so shouldn't need to align EWS using SSS like diablorojo is having to do. I never actually use the key to open doors etc so will be relying totally on the central locking to gain access to the car. Will be screwed though if central locking fails though, will have to also carry my existing key with me to gain access to car if this ever happens.
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Also, running a constant pressure fuel delivery system would mean high injector opening times at high boost to ensure adequate fuel delivery. Again, I haven't done any calculation of this but it may be the case that such high injector opening times at high boost pressure and high RPM may be a limiting factor for a constant pressure fuel delivery system.
With regards to the EWS, I bought a complete harness, ECU, EWS and lock and key set including ignition barrel all from the same car so shouldn't need to align EWS using SSS like diablorojo is having to do. I never actually use the key to open doors etc so will be relying totally on the central locking to gain access to the car. Will be screwed though if central locking fails though, will have to also carry my existing key with me to gain access to car if this ever happens.
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from what I know fuel injectors are used on a range of fuel pressures. You see the same red bosch injectors used on 3 bar pressure fuel rails and 5 bar pressure fuel rails, so I doubt the atomisation story somewhat. Maybe if the pressure differential is too small that starts to play up, so on our boosted cars. But it's not that the engine is running lean or so (people who drive behind me are sure to tell me that :lol: ).
But if I look at a fuel pressure regulator, it probably also works with boost, so 0,5 bar extra boost means 0,5 bar extra fuel pressure. The diaphragm can be sucked open by vacuum, but also pressed shut by boost (so on top of the spring load).
I dont know if in the existing pump the original fpr can be removed/destroyed, but fitting a vacuum controlled fpr is very easy, it's build in in a e46 fuel filter I think. But a retune is necessary I recon.
What does Asbjorn or Hans say on this subject?
But if I look at a fuel pressure regulator, it probably also works with boost, so 0,5 bar extra boost means 0,5 bar extra fuel pressure. The diaphragm can be sucked open by vacuum, but also pressed shut by boost (so on top of the spring load).
I dont know if in the existing pump the original fpr can be removed/destroyed, but fitting a vacuum controlled fpr is very easy, it's build in in a e46 fuel filter I think. But a retune is necessary I recon.
What does Asbjorn or Hans say on this subject?
I asked Asbjorn exactly the reason why the TS3 wasn't available for the MS45 equipped Z4 and he told me it was due to extensive fuel system modifications that was necessary and he mentioned the need for a vacuum FPR. My plan was to buy an E46 fuel filter and eliminate the existing pressure regulator and pipe a return line to the tank. This would be no problem, just need to ensure that the MS43 is compatible with my car. I'm waiting on diablorojo results.
On the topic of fuel return lines, does anyone know where exactly it returns to in the e46 330i? I imagine it returns to the top of the tank thus to maintain a constant back pressure in the return line. If it returned to the bottom of the tank then back pressure would be a function of how much fuel was actually in the tank. Not sure how much this would affect correct fuel delivery pressures, but it would be much easier to install a return line running through my existing fuel filter housing.
What I'm trying to achieve is to mimic the e46 330 TS3 setup in my car using the same DME and fuel supply system. I will be purchasing the TS3 software anyway and if I plan to install a vacuum controlled FPR to my existing setup in preparation for the TS3, I will install a temporary constant 3 bar FPR downstream such that the fuel supply system will perform the same as it does now. No additional tune needed this way and it should be easily swappable.
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On the topic of fuel return lines, does anyone know where exactly it returns to in the e46 330i? I imagine it returns to the top of the tank thus to maintain a constant back pressure in the return line. If it returned to the bottom of the tank then back pressure would be a function of how much fuel was actually in the tank. Not sure how much this would affect correct fuel delivery pressures, but it would be much easier to install a return line running through my existing fuel filter housing.
What I'm trying to achieve is to mimic the e46 330 TS3 setup in my car using the same DME and fuel supply system. I will be purchasing the TS3 software anyway and if I plan to install a vacuum controlled FPR to my existing setup in preparation for the TS3, I will install a temporary constant 3 bar FPR downstream such that the fuel supply system will perform the same as it does now. No additional tune needed this way and it should be easily swappable.
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Cylinder head ported and valves lapped in. Cylinder head has been meticulously checked for flatness using calibrated straight edge and 0.001" feeler and thankfully doesn't need to be skimmed.
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Thanks Byron, appreciate it. I would have had all the valves coated only if I had a decent paint mixer. The coatings I bought have been standing for a few months now and they need a good mixing to get rid of the bits in it. I just need to get myself down to ikea to buy a milk frother for a quid and that should be ideal for the job.Beedub said:
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