Engine strut brace?
- Thread starter LeeZ4MR
- Start date
I'm more concerned about who's going to help me fix mine..Woots, Stu bring your nut bolt wrenches to the next Meet, thanks.
Would you really trust Woots? with a face like that 
RubyBlueZ4MC said:
Ruby, you should know not to make those kind of requests to Woots
What's going on with the clock on the site?
LeeZ4MR made his post at: by LeeZ4MR - Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:24 am
Ruby followed at: by RubyBlueZ4MC - Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:38 am
Then Herminator: by Herminator - Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:15 am
And me: by marchantsuk - Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:20 am
LeeZ4MR made his post at: by LeeZ4MR - Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:24 am
Ruby followed at: by RubyBlueZ4MC - Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:38 am
Then Herminator: by Herminator - Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:15 am
And me: by marchantsuk - Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:20 am
thats correct if you think about it.... time to wake up :wink:
Herminator said:
Ah Feck
Liverpool
Is that a case of having more confidence in the car and thus driving it faster, rather than the strut making the car faster, IYSWIM, a bit like a placebo effect?toplad said:
Like in Days of Thunder where Tom Cruise is told he's got an extra-special set of tyres on that can let him go around the outside of one of the 'corners', when in fact it's all in his mind and the tyres are standard
I'm not implying any of this is intentional, but in this case are you not assuming the strut brace will give better turn in, so you subconsciously turn the steering wheel in a different manner, so that it feels like it's giving better turn in when it's you doing the work.
All I've noticed when I've put strut braces on a car (Polo G40, Corrado VR6, e34 M5) is that it's great on a dry track, understeers on a wet track and bounces everywhere on the average UK twisty road.
I've done it myself when I've picked a car up from the dealership for new rear ARB bushes and mentioned how much better it felt and the rear tracked in much quicker than it had been. It was only when I got a call the following day to re-book it for rear ARB bushes that I realised they hadn't done them as they didn't have the parts in stock. Didn't notice the omission on the bill as the M5 was in for another one of the 'always greater than £1000' services and it was a couple of pages long already.
A long time ago (in my Corrado VR6 days) a few of us booked a well-known advanced instructor for the whole day between us. He did a little stunt for us where he had 2 cars side-by-side - one with 'ditchfinders' and one with 'premium tyres'. At the end of the day we were all consistently faster on the premium tyres and assumed it was Don showing us the difference between cheap and premium rubber. When he showed us the tyres were the same on both cars we still didn't believe him and insisted that the slower ones must be a different pressure, older, more worn, etc. But he showed us that he'd swapped wheels over at the lunchtime break and we'd been faster in the car we'd been told had premium tyres on, whether it was fitted with the 'premium' or the 'ditchfinders'.
mmm-five said:
You should read the full 6 parts of the article, it's actually quite interesting. At least the author has gone to some sort effort to attempt to assess the measureable effects, if any, of all the mods that were done to the Z4MC. Here's a link to the conclusion in Part 6: http://www.europeancarweb.com/projectcars/epcp_0904_project_bmw_z4_m/viewall.html
If all the strutbrace naysayers are correct in that a strutbrace has some sort of confidence-boosting, placebo effect, only, are all the other time improvements that are logged in that same article, also the result of similar confidence-boosting, placebo effects? Or, do the naysayers just pick and choose what they want to believe works and close their minds to everything else, even in the light of further information, and is that article just a load of bollocks?
mmm-five said:Is that a case of having more confidence in the car and thus driving it faster, rather than the strut making the car faster, IYSWIM, a bit like a placebo effect?toplad said:
Like in Days of Thunder where Tom Cruise is told he's got an extra-special set of tyres on that can let him go around the outside of one of the 'corners', when in fact it's all in his mind and the tyres are standard
I'm not implying any of this is intentional, but in this case are you not assuming the strut brace will give better turn in, so you subconsciously turn the steering wheel in a different manner, so that it feels like it's giving better turn in when it's you doing the work.
All I've noticed when I've put strut braces on a car (Polo G40, Corrado VR6, e34 M5) is that it's great on a dry track, understeers on a wet track and bounces everywhere on the average UK twisty road.
I've done it myself when I've picked a car up from the dealership for new rear ARB bushes and mentioned how much better it felt and the rear tracked in much quicker than it had been. It was only when I got a call the following day to re-book it for rear ARB bushes that I realised they hadn't done them as they didn't have the parts in stock. Didn't notice the omission on the bill as the M5 was in for another one of the 'always greater than £1000' services and it was a couple of pages long already.
A long time ago (in my Corrado VR6 days) a few of us booked a well-known advanced instructor for the whole day between us. He did a little stunt for us where he had 2 cars side-by-side - one with 'ditchfinders' and one with 'premium tyres'. At the end of the day we were all consistently faster on the premium tyres and assumed it was Don showing us the difference between cheap and premium rubber. When he showed us the tyres were the same on both cars we still didn't believe him and insisted that the slower ones must be a different pressure, older, more worn, etc. But he showed us that he'd swapped wheels over at the lunchtime break and we'd been faster in the car we'd been told had premium tyres on, whether it was fitted with the 'premium' or the 'ditchfinders'.
Possibly, regarding placebo effect.
I find it interesting you mention the car bouncing around on twisty b roads more.I noticed the front end to be more controlled and less effected by bumps, it was easier to place and gave more confidence. Have you checked your geo?
One of the characteristics of a good drivers cars is feedback and confidence, when you feel you know what the car is going to do under load/cornering it allows you push more. With the brace in place I felt the car was less disjointed, while the cabin is stiff the front end wasn't. The brace definitely makes the car more direct I feel
The chap does record higher cornering G's without any indicator in the car, I'm inclined to believe his observations, for couple of reasons. Firstly,he seems objective if you read his articles on the Z4MC and GT3 he's also modified. Secondly because it resonates with my own finds both on track and road.
Tbh I'm surprised some owners aren't discerning enough to notice any difference, I'd assume owners with a quite a focused car would think its a worth while improvement for little outlay
That was the point of my post though :evil:
How many times have we had people on here/other boards claiming they could definitely feel the 1bhp increase their chip/exhaust/filter gave them
For a 'normal' high-performance driver, how much of the mods are about confidence in the mod rather than the mod itself. It might be that you're not getting the best out of the car in the first place because you've read that it understeers everywhere and a strut brace will cure it, so you fit a strut brace and you dive into corners with a bit more speed, feather the throttle instead of lifting and miraculously it turns better. The fact that you've changed your approach to the corner might have as much impact on the better turn as did having the strut brace fitted.
I was happy enough in the day with suspension changes, camber/caster/toe changes, ARB changes, etc. to make the car handle better on the track, but it's always a compromise unless you have a fully, easily-adjustable set-up that can be cranked hard/soft depending on it's application at the time. Once I bought the Z4 I decided I was going to keep it quite standard as I wanted something that wasn't a compromise for my 20-25k a year commuting/hoons. Not doing the 12 or so trackdays a year I was either, so maybe I've just gone soft
Maybe I'm just a wuss and I'm not going into B-road corners so fast that I have to lift/steer suddenly and upset the car enough to make it understeer
I do find the Pilot SuperSports have made the car much more drivable than the OEM Conti's - but that's probably all in my mind
How many times have we had people on here/other boards claiming they could definitely feel the 1bhp increase their chip/exhaust/filter gave them
For a 'normal' high-performance driver, how much of the mods are about confidence in the mod rather than the mod itself. It might be that you're not getting the best out of the car in the first place because you've read that it understeers everywhere and a strut brace will cure it, so you fit a strut brace and you dive into corners with a bit more speed, feather the throttle instead of lifting and miraculously it turns better. The fact that you've changed your approach to the corner might have as much impact on the better turn as did having the strut brace fitted.
I was happy enough in the day with suspension changes, camber/caster/toe changes, ARB changes, etc. to make the car handle better on the track, but it's always a compromise unless you have a fully, easily-adjustable set-up that can be cranked hard/soft depending on it's application at the time. Once I bought the Z4 I decided I was going to keep it quite standard as I wanted something that wasn't a compromise for my 20-25k a year commuting/hoons. Not doing the 12 or so trackdays a year I was either, so maybe I've just gone soft
Maybe I'm just a wuss and I'm not going into B-road corners so fast that I have to lift/steer suddenly and upset the car enough to make it understeer
I do find the Pilot SuperSports have made the car much more drivable than the OEM Conti's - but that's probably all in my mind
SuperSports were definitely better for reducing understeer for me, you're not the only one imagining things :wink:
Definitely, if you lift of hard/suddenly enough - although not what you want happening when there's a Welsh stone wall 6-inches from the rear quarter and a 200 foot drop on the other sideexdos said:Actually, that's a great way to get an understeery car to turn - "lift-off oversteer".mmm-five said:Maybe I'm just a wuss and I'm not going into B-road corners so fast that I have to lift/steer suddenly and upset the car enough to make it understeer
Only had lift-off oversteer when I've either provoked it (especially on wet FWD track days), or when having to brake/turn at the same time (e.g. on roundabouts when someone pulls out - especially pre/disabled ABS).
I usually use a bit of power on a RWD is to help 'steer' the car on some faster corners rather than sawing at the steering wheel, and just tend to brake early enough that I can be powering through the corner rather than still being on the brakes whilst trying to turn the corner. But that's probably why my tyres last 20k miles and discs/pads 40k miles
Not seen me into a hedge/ditch/tyre wall/armco yet
The M5 was the first car that I'd fitted one to where I thought it didn't help, and so haven't bothered trying one on the Z4MC - although a reduction in track days (more 'Ring trips) has probably moved the balance towards road-biased than track-biased set-up - and I can't be bothered changing wheels, tyres & suspension set up twice a week any more.
As I said, I'm obviously getting old in my middle age, and am taking it much easier so that I can take advantage of my £5 a week pension in 20-30 years (depending on how far the government has pushed retirement age by then).
Have those commenting actually tried driving the car on the same road with it fitted and then removed? I was sad enough to actually try this when my car had some issues on bumpy surfaces, later found out to be dodgy toe setting on my front right wheel.
Although the difference wasn't staggering I found with it fitted the turn in was more precise with more feel to the steering, the front of the car didn't feel so vague and there was less lift at the front.
On the downside it made my car veer more and pull over hard surfaces, as a consequence of this I removed mine and sold it on as I figured it was causing discomfort on my local roads.
However, after a few more miles and having my geo checked and fixed and I started to regret that decision, with lighter steering going over crests and a vague feel to the front it became clear the strut braces main fault was that it was actually just adding to the negative effect of having an out of sync toe out one of my fronts.
My advice would be to fit one.
Although the difference wasn't staggering I found with it fitted the turn in was more precise with more feel to the steering, the front of the car didn't feel so vague and there was less lift at the front.
On the downside it made my car veer more and pull over hard surfaces, as a consequence of this I removed mine and sold it on as I figured it was causing discomfort on my local roads.
However, after a few more miles and having my geo checked and fixed and I started to regret that decision, with lighter steering going over crests and a vague feel to the front it became clear the strut braces main fault was that it was actually just adding to the negative effect of having an out of sync toe out one of my fronts.
My advice would be to fit one.
mmm-five said:Definitely, if you lift of hard/suddenly enough - although not what you want happening when there's a Welsh stone wall 6-inches from the rear quarter and a 200 foot drop on the other side
Only had lift-off oversteer when I've either provoked it (especially on wet FWD track days), or when having to brake/turn at the same time (e.g. on roundabouts when someone pulls out - especially pre/disabled ABS).
When I'm cornering on the twisties, I often tend to lift off and then turn early, rather than brake then turn if I don't have to lose too much speed, and as soon as the car has settled into the turn and found grip all round, I reapply the throttle a fraction later. I sort of "compartmentalise" the concept of the the "circle of friction", where I'm allowing the tyre to use all it's grip to resist lateral loading when I lift-off, before I reduce the lateral grip by reapplying the throttle for traction. An example of where I would do this is entering the right hander at Flugplatz. It works for both FWD and RWD but I only get up to 10k miles per rear tyres, although I do most of my driving on the rural B and A roads.
Like you, I sometimes use the throttle to get a rear-wheel steer effect. The sharp right hander after leaving Hohe Acht is a place that I would do this.
As always, there's more than one way to skin a cat and different techniques work for different people, but if you know that your car will act predictably you've got the confidence to push on.
mmm-five said:That was the point of my post though :evil:
How many times have we had people on here/other boards claiming they could definitely feel the 1bhp increase their chip/exhaust/filter gave them
For a 'normal' high-performance driver, how much of the mods are about confidence in the mod rather than the mod itself. It might be that you're not getting the best out of the car in the first place because you've read that it understeers everywhere and a strut brace will cure it, so you fit a strut brace and you dive into corners with a bit more speed, feather the throttle instead of lifting and miraculously it turns better. The fact that you've changed your approach to the corner might have as much impact on the better turn as did having the strut brace fitted.
I'm a natural skeptic, but I'm open minded at the same time. I didn't think the brace would make any difference and didn't change how I entered corners because it was fitted to the car, the brace allowed me to drive harder into corners.
I have a few favorite roads near me, which allows me to, shall we say experiment with constant radius corning ( I.E motorway roundabouts). Pushing the car until either the front end washes in to under steer or the back-end starts to lose grip. I know the maximum cornering speed for the Z4 in dry weather with warm tires, with and without the brace. With the brace fitted understeer starts to push the front end wide at a lower speed, also the car settles into the corner quicker when you make your initial steering input.
It isn't night and day of course, your adding maybe a few percent of performance, but it's easily noticeable in my view