E85 camber and toe woe

[Jager66]

Hi-
I have had 2007 E85 3.0Si for a few years now and have tolerated the run flat handling for a few years until recently. It is (as far as I know) a standard car with 18" wheels and M-tec sports suspension.
It recently failed the MOT and had the lollipop bushes replaced and seemed worse. The tyres were due to be changed so I fitted GY F1 all round, which improved things massively, but decided to visit a local HiQ tyre depot (I have used them before for other stuff and they were good) as they have a Hunter 4 wheel track machine.
After persuading them to weight up the car and havng a few adjustments made, we got to a point where the rear toe was within tolerances, rear camber was even at 2deg 15min (R/O/S was on max adjustment so decided to balance both)
Front toe was again within tolerance but F/N/S camber was about 1deg 50min more negative than F/O/S. I was told there wasn't a front camber adjustment on this car- it didn't go down too well when I pointed out that the locating pin would come out! the chap tried to nock it out, but that was never going to happen without an allen key. I didn't get a print as the printer was not working- seems to b ea common problem :thumbsdown:
I left it there and decided to get booked in with a local Indy to finnish the job off. They are a lot more expensive that the tyre depot, but they are ex-BMW mechs and have done good work in the past.
Had a Sunday drive across Mid Wales and I have to say it handled a lot better than it ever had, imagine how good it would be with that front corner sorted.

The Indy was a bit more old school using laser and spirit level based alignment kit- although no weights. Got a balance on the rear toe (rather than loading on one wheel) through adjustment and with some minor tweaking at the front we were a tad out on toe on one wheel, but everything else was pretty even.
Wanting a print of my new set-up, I popped into a different tyre depot for a free alignment check and the print.
I ended up with the attached (car not weighted) and I have to say that on the drive home the car didn't seem to handle as well as it did (right hand bends- the car seems to float rather than sit on th eroad) Understandably the car is booked back into the Indy for a second look.



What I can't work out is why there is a difference between the two alignments- i.e. the Indy and the attached
.....HELP

PS that R/O/S camber is greater than we had managed previously even when the car was weighted with the adjustment bolt (with cam washer) on max

 

[MrPT]

From what I understand, the Hunter machines should be pretty foolproof. I recently had back-to-back Hunter alignments done at a cheap, high street dealer and then a pricey specialist, and they were in agreement. The difference was that one was ultimately able to change the alignment to within a tight tolerance and the other did me a favour by saying they were a bit nervous about it and I should ask someone else to take my money. Fair play to both.

No excuses for not being able to adjust the fronts - you don’t need to pull the pins for stock alignment (and it’s the same process for thousands of other BMWs out there) - or not being able to give you a report. I'd give the indie the benefit of the doubt when you take it back to them, but it does sound from your test drive as if their mastery of the dark alignment arts may not be as good as they think it is!

Personally I’d get some forum recommendations for an alignment specialist local to you and don’t look back. As you say, if you can already feel the difference, you are going to be mightily chuffed when you find someone that can do a proper job.

Edit - on the subject of pre-alignment ballast, practically speaking I'd not bother with this as it limits your ability to create a repeatable baseline for future checks. It will mostly affect camber and the impact (if you go with 2 x occupancy) should be symmetrical and within tolerance. If you want to use a single occupancy ballast, then you are also into the realm of corner weighting etc, i.e. something you'd probably only benefit from on a race track.

 

[PDJ]

realm of corner weighting etc, i.e. something you'd probably only benefit from on a race track.

Another dark art with loads of variables

 

[Jager66]

Thanks both- I have read myself to death on Z4 alignmnent and while I would just love to nudge the bloke over and do it myself, I can imagine it is one of those things in life that looks easy looking outside in, but actually doing it is another story.

 

[MACK]

Thanks both- I have read myself to death on Z4 alignmnent and while I would just love to nudge the bloke over and do it myself, I can imagine it is one of those things in life that looks easy looking outside in, but actually doing it is another story.

The biggest problem with alignment is finding someone who actually understands it and isn't just following the settings on screen. I've used a couple of places who had all the kit but when you asked them to do a custom spec they just couldn't get what you wanted in to their heads. very much a case of "the computer says no!"

 

[Jager66]

I am back at the Indy in the morning, lets see how it goes.
I do get the distinct impression that getting it right takes time and persistance.

 

[buzyg]

I am back at the Indy in the morning, lets see how it goes.
I do get the distinct impression that getting it right takes time and persistance.

Indeed, but it"s worth it.

 

[Jager66]

It's been a while......

The Indy stood by his (mechanic's) work, but the car didn't corner the same in each direction, or at least that is how it felt.

Given that the lolipop bushes needed replacing, I decided to polybush (Powerflex) the RTAB and do the swaybar (anti-roll bar) bushes and links at the same time- I wasn't brave enough to do the other rear bushes, and they seemed OK ish.

Doing the RTAB would mean an other trip for alignment- this time to a different tyre depot, that was family run and who had the Hunter.
Nice friendly bunch, who through conversation, convinced me that they knew what they were about.

Dropped Zara off andf left them to it.

On picking up, there were no tales of woe as to how it was a 12 year old car and how it was rusted and would never get aligned as it was out of the factory. With the exception of the camber on one front corner, the job was done. All in all a good experience.

The ride home was much improved, very little pulling and she was a lot more consistant through both left and right hand bends.

The down-side is that I have got home to find that they have used the standard suspension settings and not the lowered, although in reality, the rear camber should be greater, but otherwise it is 'in spec'.
The pluses are- the new bushings have evend up the stance and is how it should be (603mm rear 600mm front rim to bumper height) and the rear camber bolts are evenly turned, and only about half way through their adjustment- previously one was on max was not doing as it should have.
It is clear that the RTAB replacement has had a positive effect on rear toe and camber, and together with the swaybar bushings, the ride height.

The Kwack-fit print was done before I changed the bushings the other from today's alignment.

I think I will go back to this garage and ask them to adjust the rear camber to what it should be for the M-tec suspension. Hopefully everything else will stay in spec