Audio upgrades… worth the effort?

[Chris_D]

There is a reason why some 80s/90s car stereos still sound good, much like 80s professional audio gear, and that's because the analogue dry through was far, far better quality than what's mass-produced today; that's a little off topic...

I agree and disagree.
I love 80's analogue audio, which is why I currently have 3 Nakamichi Dragons sat on my bench. Even though they're sonically inferior to CD, DSD, SACD etc. they just sound nice! Same goes for vinyl - it's technically inferior to a digital sound source but because it has a totally different sound signature it can sound very appealing.

However, if you have ever listened to a beautifully recorded piece of music via 32bit DSD and a capable, neutral, transparent DAC stage and a top pair of headphones the result can also be quite a revelation.

well I spend mega bucks on all parts of my cars..AND the audio systems!

The law of diminishing returns applies here and I'd respectfully suggest that the fancy, expensive DSP system you have invested in for your car audio would be infinitely more suited to a home listening environment.
All cars, not least of which the over-compromised space of an E85/E89 are a pointless endeavour when it comes to creating an adequate listening environment. You can throw as much money at a problem as you want but you will incur a diminishing return in doing so. I think any return on investment starts to ebb away as soon as you start replacing the stock speakers!
What's that phrase: 'you can't polish a turd' :lol:

Probably the easiest caveat to identify in a car environment is the listener position. Just consider how much effort it is to optimise the sound when you're already positioned 'off-centre' !

 

[Tom2207]

I had a Nakamichi cd player in my Corrado , it was a weapon of a thing , it stayed with me through three or four cars after that ,,
not much to look at , no swimming dolphins or flashing sound meters , but it did sound sweet . I cant remember the model number but it was the top end hand built version .
Dragons are great to this day , throw in a big old pioneer amp and a pair of ns1000ms and your rocking ... literally.

 

[eddiemunster]

What's that phrase: 'you can't polish a turd' :lol:

....but you can roll it in glitter...

 

[poss]

You're completely in the wrong range of acoustics; the phase cancellation travels through the car itself, the body, the chassis; what you're describing is the disruption of audio waves from source to destination. In fact, the wrong isolation can absorb those frequencies, or it can reflect them, the compromise is somewhere in between depending on the issue.

In a professional studio, you're not always insulating to stop the noise getting out, you're insulating to prevent early reflections that can dramatically alter the quality of what you hear.

I have no idea what you even purport to mean by 'the wrong range of acoustics', and we are not talking about a professional sound studio - its a car with a limited range of surfaces that can be treated for both reflection and transmission.

Your original hypothesis as I understand it was that road noise etc travelling thru the vehicle was the biggest problem to overcome in getting good quality sound. I called it out as horses doodoo. With good tyres on and roof up the cabin is more than reasonably quiet. I have added sound-deadening to the door panels and cards too (didn't make much of a diff to road noise tho)

A hopefully incontestable observation is that the sound generator with one baffle removed is easily far louder than any other cabin noise with the roof up - but this doesn't seem to affect my ability to clearly hear the music. The new subs sound nice and punchy and the new tweeters sound reasonably sweet and detailed compared to the stock ones. Sure, it doesn't sound as good as my home setup in an acoustically treated room with digital speaker and room correction that will blow away most pro recording studio monitor setups, but it was a quantum improvement over factory sound.

So what is the solution to your strawman argument? How does one solve these travelling phase cancellation demons - or are you saying it cannot be solved so don't try improving the sound. If it's the latter I just proved you horribly wrong with my recent upgrade projects.

 

[eddiemunster]

So what is the solution to your strawman argument? How does one solve these travelling phase cancellation demons - or are you saying it cannot be solved so don't try improving the sound. If it's the latter I just proved you horribly wrong with my recent upgrade projects.

You're using entirely personal descriptions for improved sound, like "sweet"; what on earth does that mean? You'll be telling me about "air" and "sizzle" next.

I would't know where to start with regards to educating you on how sound travels, both in air and through solid objects, yet you're adamant that with the roof up and some Amazon-esque foam you can defeat transference through solid mass. I'm laughing out loud now.

Sure, it doesn't sound as good as my home setup in an acoustically treated room with digital speaker and room correction that will blow away most pro recording studio monitor setups.

I have to ignore you now, given the ludicrous and preposterous nonsense above, and it's for this reason people should ignore you.

 

[Tom2207]

You're completely in the wrong range of acoustics; the phase cancellation travels through the car itself, the body, the chassis; what you're describing is the disruption of audio waves from source to destination. In fact, the wrong isolation can absorb those frequencies, or it can reflect them, the compromise is somewhere in between depending on the issue.

In a professional studio, you're not always insulating to stop the noise getting out, you're insulating to prevent early reflections that can dramatically alter the quality of what you hear.

I have no idea what you even purport to mean by 'the wrong range of acoustics', and we are not talking about a professional sound studio - its a car with a limited range of surfaces that can be treated for both reflection and transmission.

Your original hypothesis as I understand it was that road noise etc travelling thru the vehicle was the biggest problem to overcome in getting good quality sound. I called it out as horses doodoo. With good tyres on and roof up the cabin is more than reasonably quiet. I have added sound-deadening to the door panels and cards too (didn't make much of a diff to road noise tho)

A hopefully incontestable observation is that the sound generator with one baffle removed is easily far louder than any other cabin noise with the roof up - but this doesn't seem to affect my ability to clearly hear the music. The new subs sound nice and punchy and the new tweeters sound reasonably sweet and detailed compared to the stock ones. Sure, it doesn't sound as good as my home setup in an acoustically treated room with digital speaker and room correction that will blow away most pro recording studio monitor setups, but it was a quantum improvement over factory sound.

So what is the solution to your strawman argument? How does one solve these travelling phase cancellation demons - or are you saying it cannot be solved so don't try improving the sound. If it's the latter I just proved you horribly wrong with my recent upgrade projects.

 

[Beedub]

my shop fits hertz and audison stuff some of the systems we've done have been insane, we work with a couple of high end restomod companies delivering 8k plus worth of audio , i'm fully expecting to get shot down but the DSP system in the z4 is imo very good..... of course it can be improved but i really like it .

 

[Tom2207]

my shop fits hertz and audison stuff some of the systems we've done have been insane, we work with a couple of high end restomod companies delivering 8k plus worth of audio , i'm fully expecting to get shot down but the DSP system in the z4 is imo very good..... of course it can be improved but i really like it .

handy to know

 

[True-Blue]

From my own perspective, I can’t imagine ever being able to listen carefully enough to be sufficiently critical on any perceived or genuine improvements unless the car is stationary with the engine off.

If you’re trying to focus critically on improvements in your audio whilst on the move, you’re surely not focusing on the more important job at hand.

 

[B21]

From my own perspective, I can’t imagine ever being able to listen carefully enough to be sufficiently critical on any perceived or genuine improvements unless the car is stationary with the engine off.

If you’re trying to focus critically on improvements in your audio whilst on the move, you’re surely not focusing on the more important job at hand.

As you can see in the can of worms that spun out of some innocent questions its an emotive subject..to put it politely.

Bit like which Zed is best, probably best to say that as long as the person paying for it and using it is a happy bunny then what does it matter?

Your perspective is valid (to you), other perspectives are available..

To clarify your second point, the irony (for me) is that a good audio system is non intrusive in the sense I just enjoy the music..if the system is not good then it does intrude cause you either focus on what you know to be deficient or you then divert brain power to analyse what you think is causing the issue..

 

[True-Blue]

From my own perspective, I can’t imagine ever being able to listen carefully enough to be sufficiently critical on any perceived or genuine improvements unless the car is stationary with the engine off.

If you’re trying to focus critically on improvements in your audio whilst on the move, you’re surely not focusing on the more important job at hand.

As you can see in the can of worms that spun out of some innocent questions its an emotive subject..to put it politely.

Bit like which Zed is best, probably best to say that as long as the person paying for it and using it is a happy bunny then what does it matter?

Your perspective is valid (to you), other perspectives are available..

To clarify your second point, the irony (for me) is that a good audio system is non intrusive in the sense I just enjoy the music..if the system is not good then it does intrude cause you either focus on what you know to be deficient or you then divert brain power to analyse what you think is causing the issue..

Absolutely, and as random as it may sound… I’m still tempted by some upgrades

 

[Tom2207]

From my own perspective, I can’t imagine ever being able to listen carefully enough to be sufficiently critical on any perceived or genuine improvements unless the car is stationary with the engine off.

If you’re trying to focus critically on improvements in your audio whilst on the move, you’re surely not focusing on the more important job at hand.

As you can see in the can of worms that spun out of some innocent questions its an emotive subject..to put it politely.

Bit like which Zed is best, probably best to say that as long as the person paying for it and using it is a happy bunny then what does it matter?

Your perspective is valid (to you), other perspectives are available..

To clarify your second point, the irony (for me) is that a good audio system is non intrusive in the sense I just enjoy the music..if the system is not good then it does intrude cause you either focus on what you know to be deficient or you then divert brain power to analyse what you think is causing the issue..

Absolutely, and as random as it may sound… I’m still tempted by some upgrades

for the relatively low cost involved , and the huge gain to be had , go for it. even better you can do it in stages ,

 

[poss]

I would't know where to start with regards to educating you on how sound travels, both in air and through solid objects, yet you're adamant that with the roof up and some Amazon-esque foam you can defeat transference through solid mass. I'm laughing out loud now.

So am I. So much for a cogent discussion. Fallacy of appeal to authority (with you being the self-appointed authority and thus not required to provide any evidence to back up your position)

Hopefully you may be interested in understanding how such a fallacious argument operates in case you are unaware:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

I provided testable observations that cabin noise is not the main concern in improving sound in a Z4. Sure there is cabin noise. Absolutely road and engine noise and the limited possible acoustic modifications to the cabin mean you can never turn a Z4 into a pro sound studio - but that was not the point of contention.

Hopefully I have educated you as to how a logical argument works. Feel free to elucidate your acoustic qualifications - Phd?

 

[eddiemunster]

Hopefully you may be interested in understanding how such a fallacious argument operates in case you are unaware:

And then...

Hopefully I have educated you as to how a logical argument works.

I can't even be bothered wasting time picking apart your piffle.

 

[Chris_D]

 

[poss]

Feel free to elucidate your acoustic qualifications - Phd?

Response: I can't even be bothered wasting time picking apart your piffle.

I think that says it all to the rest of us.

 

[eddiemunster]

o am I. So much for a cogent discussion. Fallacy of appeal to authority (with you being the self-appointed authority and thus not required to provide any evidence to back up your position)

You're being hung by your own petard; but still, you return.

 

[poss]

You're being hung by your own petard; but still, you return.

So why did you PM me for advice about your failed GM5 whilst publicly abusing me?

 

[eddiemunster]

You're being hung by your own petard; but still, you return.

So why did you PM me for advice about your failed GM5 whilst publicly abusing me?

Go back and read the waffle in this thread, or any other thread I've been involved with, I don't publicly abuse anyone; I occasionally react to people that are condescending, i.e. "I suppose you have a Phd", more often than not I don't even bother with a reply. In reply to that, no I don't, just a plain old degree, but I'll make sure I contact my previous boss at Bentley to tell him he should resign immediately as someone on the internet said you can't be an expert in what you do unless you have a Phd. I'll drop into Mira, and Bridgestone, and Cooper, and Honda etc., etc., and I'll give those ex-bosses the same advice. It's not a pissing competition, although for some it clearly has to be.

I treat every person, every post and every situation with a blank canvas, so I don't find it difficult to agree in one conversation but disagree in another; it has no bearing on how I treat them or the situation. Now please, just end it.

 

[True-Blue]

Gents,

I didn’t intend to start a contentious topic here.

I have no doubt that those who have upgraded/spent money on audio in their E85/E89 etc hear an improvement to their ears.

I was a little surprised at the efforts and costs some people go to for what, I personally feel, is likely to be somewhat hamstrung by the environment - but, genuinely, each to their own.

My inner child wants to make some upgrades to the audio system, my grown up head says spend the money on something else… not sure which one is going to win at this point