Audio upgrades… worth the effort?

[True-Blue]

There are quite a number of Audio upgrade threads in this section of the forum, and I’m left wondering if it’s worth all the effort…

I do understand that the basic stereo is woeful without speakers in the doors, but after doing that is there much to be gained?

Surely, with the roof down, even the highest quality audio install is going to have limited benefit?

I can understand sound proofing doors etc to some degree,

 

[poss]

Only at higher speeds....

https://z4-forum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=133585

 

[True-Blue]

Only at higher speeds....

https://z4-forum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=133585

Interesting project, but I would have thought that the faster you are going the more the soundstage etc will be destroyed by wind noise!

I get that it might be easier to hear with more grunt, but if you’re not upgrading amplification are you not just putting more stress on the onboard amp?

I would have thought that sound quality could be vastly improved when stationary, but once the engine is running and the car’s moving it would be undone?

Not criticising anyone doing these kind of upgrades, kind of interested in doing it, but thinking that the limitations of the moving, roof down environment might negate a lot of the effort?

 

[mr.tourette]

easy way to look at it..if you start out with a pile of crap and you make it worse then you have a bigger pile of crap...if you start with a pile of goodness and spoil it a bit you still have a pile of goodness thats got a little bit of crap dusted on

If you hear the difference between a boggo 6 speaker set up and a modded one you will note its a day and night type of improvement

 

[poss]

I get that it might be easier to hear with more grunt, but if you’re not upgrading amplification are you not just putting more stress on the onboard amp?

Certainly not in the case of the DSP/Carver factory amp - I replaced the factory speakers with exact matches Ohm-wise, so the amp is not working harder, the speakers are working more efficiently.

The Carver amp is actually pretty damn good. The main weakness after speaker replacement is the analog to digital convertor in the amp (AD convertors have improved leaps and bounds since these were built). I would like to replace the AD convertor if anyone has a sacrificial unit so I can figure out the circuit.

 

[poss]

I would have thought that sound quality could be vastly improved when stationary, but once the engine is running and the car’s moving it would be undone?

Only a real issue above 80km/hr (50mph). Slow down and enjoy the sound

 

[sp3ctre]

It's a while since I had my Z4 but from what I remember the issue with sound is more that fact that you have to crank it up so loud to counteract the wind noise. It is less about the quality of the sound but rather the ability of the sound system to handle volume without distortion.

 

[Darkangelv2]

I've swapped all 4 front speakers and added the in-door mids (Hertz 3-Way components) and added an amplified sub behind the drivers seat (using the 2 rear feeds).

It all sounds better than what preceded BUT what i do find tough is to get consistent performance at different volumes - it sounds best at high volumes. I believe this ultimately comes down to the head unit which is now my strangling factor. I'm just not willing to compromise the dash with an after market unit.

 

[B21]

I've swapped all 4 front speakers and added the in-door mids (Hertz 3-Way components) and added an amplified sub behind the drivers seat (using the 2 rear feeds).

It all sounds better than what preceded BUT what i do find tough is to get consistent performance at different volumes - it sounds best at high volumes. I believe this ultimately comes down to the head unit which is now my strangling factor. I'm just not willing to compromise the dash with an after market unit.

You can improve things massively by going DSP..but its a whole new level of sophistication but you do keep the head unit..

https://z4-forum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=109447&sid=98b304cc054d788efbaed3a2200a0278

 

[Darkangelv2]

I've swapped all 4 front speakers and added the in-door mids (Hertz 3-Way components) and added an amplified sub behind the drivers seat (using the 2 rear feeds).

It all sounds better than what preceded BUT what i do find tough is to get consistent performance at different volumes - it sounds best at high volumes. I believe this ultimately comes down to the head unit which is now my strangling factor. I'm just not willing to compromise the dash with an after market unit.

You can improve things massively by going DSP..but its a whole new level of sophistication but you do keep the head unit..

https://z4-forum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t= 109447&sid =98b304cc054d788efbaed3a2200a0278

Yikes - £600+ for an amp is definitely next level.

Think I’ll make do with what I have

That said, I now wonder what one of these could be like…

https://vibeaudio.co.uk/product/powerbox65-4bmw3

 

[B21]

Yes you pay your monies and take your choices… when I did it on my E89 it blew away both the 11 speaker hi-fi and the 14 speaker top hi-fi systems..but it’s expensive…

 

[Chris_D]

..or you can opt for a pair of open-back headphones which enables you to get a better sound than any expensive in-car system at a fraction of the cost and still be able to hear plod's siren behind you.

Or on this occasion a pair of closed-back cans if you don't actually care if plod is behind you and/or you want to block out a cantankerous nephew bleating on about how his Mini JCW is faster than most other little snot-boxes on the road..
:lol:

 

[eddiemunster]

There are quite a number of Audio upgrade threads in this section of the forum, and I’m left wondering if it’s worth all the effort…

In short, no; forget wind noise, the biggest loss in audio quality will be around the 200mhz-1k range as that's what'll be produced by tyre/road noise; in terms of audio description, this range is normally what people call "low-mids" and "mids", and that's generally where most things sit in the audio spectrum. Bass, guitars, most vocals, keyboards etc. sit within in this range (not exclusively, some are well into the 2k-3k). The road/tyre/engine noise will create phase cancellation so you'll find it hard to hear those frequencies.

Whenever you read any advert that talks about wattage as a boast, you know it's utter nonsense; wattage is a measure of the power needed to drive the amplifier/speakers, SPL or DB levels are what determine how loud the sound will be. People rarely advertise SPL or DB as that's also a measure of speaker driver efficiency, i.e. a cheap driver would struggle to produce the same perceived "volume" output.

Bass and low frequencies take more effort/energy to produce, so, the amplifier has to be able to provide a higher SPL to more efficient drivers, in order to combat the frequency loss from the car. 99% of "high end" car audio systems sound appalling to me as they're simply all about bottom end, often flabby and without definition, so as someone that works in audio (but also tested tyres) I wouldn't bother upgrading any audio in my cars unless I could adequately combat the road/tyre noise and that'll often mean sound insolation.

 

[poss]

so as someone that works in audio (but also tested tyres) I wouldn't bother upgrading any audio in my cars unless I could adequately combat the road/tyre noise and that'll often mean sound insolation.

I dispute your hypothesis that additional insulation is required for good sound as the Z4 has an impressive level of cabin sound insulation - 14mm heavy foam underlay + carpet as depicted below (unless perhaps the lesser Z4's have inferior sound insolation[sic] ?

 

[Chris_D]

so as someone that works in audio (but also tested tyres) I wouldn't bother upgrading any audio in my cars unless I could adequately combat the road/tyre noise and that'll often mean sound insolation.

I dispute your hypothesis that additional insulation is required for good sound as the Z4 has an impressive level of cabin sound insulation - 14mm heavy foam underlay + carpet as depicted below (unless perhaps the lesser Z4's have inferior sound insolation[sic] ?
carpet insulation.jpg

You're not taking resonance and reflection into account.
Don't forget that at head height you have approximately 70-80% close, reflective hard surfaces (glass and fascia) to account for. The different angles of the hard surfaces alone are enough to compromise the listening environment.
The E85 roadster with the top up is relatively quiet but the available space, acoustic constraints and especially with the top down makes any attempt at acoustic management by any means pointless due to the constantly changing noise levels from wind speed, road noise, other cars, standing waves, ad infinitum.

Think about where the speakers are positioned in an E85;
footwell drivers - mostly firing soundwaves straight into legs or carpeted surfaces - crap
door mids - firing straight accross the cabin at each other at lower than head height creating standing waves somewhere near the middle of the listening space - crap
rear speakers - firing straight into the back of the seats and dissipating the high frequencies - crap
subs (if present) - behind the seats - ok
The only speakers that have a clear line of sight/direction towards the listener are the mirror tweeters!

 

[eddiemunster]

so as someone that works in audio (but also tested tyres) I wouldn't bother upgrading any audio in my cars unless I could adequately combat the road/tyre noise and that'll often mean sound insolation.

I dispute your hypothesis that additional insulation is required for good sound as the Z4 has an impressive level of cabin sound insulation - 14mm heavy foam underlay + carpet as depicted below (unless perhaps the lesser Z4's have inferior sound insolation[sic] ?
carpet insulation.jpg

You're completely in the wrong range of acoustics; the phase cancellation travels through the car itself, the body, the chassis; what you're describing is the disruption of audio waves from source to destination. In fact, the wrong isolation can absorb those frequencies, or it can reflect them, the compromise is somewhere in between depending on the issue.

In a professional studio, you're not always insulating to stop the noise getting out, you're insulating to prevent early reflections that can dramatically alter the quality of what you hear.

 

[B21]

so as someone that works in audio (but also tested tyres) I wouldn't bother upgrading any audio in my cars unless I could adequately combat the road/tyre noise and that'll often mean sound insolation.

I dispute your hypothesis that additional insulation is required for good sound as the Z4 has an impressive level of cabin sound insulation - 14mm heavy foam underlay + carpet as depicted below (unless perhaps the lesser Z4's have inferior sound insolation[sic] ?
carpet insulation.jpg

You're completely in the wrong range of acoustics; the phase cancellation travels through the car itself, the body, the chassis; what you're describing is the disruption of audio waves from source to destination. In fact, the wrong isolation can absorb those frequencies, or it can reflect them, the compromise is somewhere in between depending on the issue.

In a professional studio, you're not always insulating to stop the noise getting out, you're insulating to prevent early reflections that can dramatically alter the quality of what you hear.

So what are your top tips for makng say an E89 as accoustically acceptable? Or not..just live with it?

Also top up or down? Thoughts pls?

 

[eddiemunster]

So what are your top tips for makng say an E89 as accoustically acceptable? Or not..just live with it?

Yeah, I just live with it; the caveat is that I think 99% of all car audio systems are no better than decent, I've never heard one that I think is truly impressive, so to me there are always other things worth spending money on when it comes to my car.

There is a reason why some 80s/90s car stereos still sound good, much like 80s professional audio gear, and that's because the analogue dry through was far, far better quality than what's mass-produced today; that's a little off topic...

 

[B21]

So what are your top tips for makng say an E89 as accoustically acceptable? Or not..just live with it?

Yeah, I just live with it; the caveat is that I think 99% of all car audio systems are no better than decent, I've never heard one that I think is truly impressive, so to me there are always other things worth spending money on when it comes to my car.

There is a reason why some 80s/90s car stereos still sound good, much like 80s professional audio gear, and that's because the analogue dry through was far, far better quality than what's mass-produced today; that's a little off topic...

well I spend mega bucks on all parts of my cars..AND the audio systems!

 

[Tom2207]

There is a reason why some 80s/90s car stereos still sound good, much like 80s professional audio gear, and that's because the analogue dry through was far, far better quality than what's mass-produced today; that's a little off topic...

whats a dry through ??