Anyone speak English in London ?
- Thread starter Bumpy
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As a Londoner here's my input (hopefully without too much prejudice) - I was born, bred and worked in Fulham, West London in the 60s, 70s and 80s in a very multicultural society that was just the norm. There was no “them”, they” or “us” just a community. What (imho) spoilt my part of London (for me) was the swathes of Kensington and Chelsea (and to sadly categorise as the 'yuppies') spill-over in the late 1980s moving into Fulham causing rents and property prices to rise until most locals could no longer afford to live there or buy there and most communities just ceased. As much as I loved Fulham I just couldn’t afford to live there.
But London’s been home to legal immigrants (long and short term) and the more 'financially viable' for hundreds of years and its constantly evolving and changing around, so my advice is just try to embrace it, if you can’t, or it’s not what you want it to be, just avoid, cause you won’t change it and you’ll just get yourself all wound up harbouring unjust racist (or maybe anti 'well-to-do' folk) thoughts. Just enjoy it, the best thing about London is that its very liberal and moves with the times......
But London’s been home to legal immigrants (long and short term) and the more 'financially viable' for hundreds of years and its constantly evolving and changing around, so my advice is just try to embrace it, if you can’t, or it’s not what you want it to be, just avoid, cause you won’t change it and you’ll just get yourself all wound up harbouring unjust racist (or maybe anti 'well-to-do' folk) thoughts. Just enjoy it, the best thing about London is that its very liberal and moves with the times......
No it isn't, because the people who use that term (DM reader) do so in a sneering, intellectual snobbishness and use it whenever they think something is "right-of-centre". It is ignorant. The same people used to say the same thing about "Sun readers" back in the 80's but were curiously silent when for a decade or more Murdoch's papers (and the Sun in particular) backed the Labour Party.
original guvnor said:
my response disappeared
so you justify that you arent using lazy stereotyping because the subject of your lazy stereotyping are sneering intellectual snobs? is that lazy stereotyping twice over?
if the DM is considered by many to be a bit right wing and other people echo right wing comments about "them foreigners coming over here to steal out jobs" then its hardly intellectual snobbishness to point it out.
The whole term "DM reader" is intended to be an insult and is used by people to be dismissive of someone. Not everyone will have the ability to be able to express their concerns about immigration in an articulate way but that doesn't mean their concerns aren't valid or worthy of debate. That's why people who use the term are being intellectual snobs. The same as it was when it was "Sun reader". I am deliberately generalising now, but what they mean when they use the term is "you are a small-minded little englander thicko". Immigration concerns are generalised by you again as "right-wing" but look at the polls - it's as big of a concern in Labour voters minds as it is in the Conservatives or Lib Dems voters.
All I was trying to say originally is that the term itself is just a lazy mud-slinging insult used by people who can't argue their point properly. I hear it so often that's why it gets my back up.
All I was trying to say originally is that the term itself is just a lazy mud-slinging insult used by people who can't argue their point properly. I hear it so often that's why it gets my back up.
To put some perspective on this....
Dubai is an arab country, in the UAE, i visit there frequently, have many friends there, and if you speak arabic only you'd struggle to go on holiday there. Everything and everyone speaks english... The majority are expats.
Reversing this... If in london speaking english only you wouldnt struggle to visit!
I grew up in london, working within the manufacturing industry, and quite frankly the local unemployed are too lazy and think of themselves as too good as to do factory work, so we actually have to pay to bring in eastern european people to work in the factories! So i love reading small minded views like this!!
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Dubai is an arab country, in the UAE, i visit there frequently, have many friends there, and if you speak arabic only you'd struggle to go on holiday there. Everything and everyone speaks english... The majority are expats.
Reversing this... If in london speaking english only you wouldnt struggle to visit!
I grew up in london, working within the manufacturing industry, and quite frankly the local unemployed are too lazy and think of themselves as too good as to do factory work, so we actually have to pay to bring in eastern european people to work in the factories! So i love reading small minded views like this!!
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I think that's partly true. If an economy doesn't have enough qualified, able or more importantly, willing individuals to do the work available then it needs to import resource. I also think it's true though that we have become far too focused on sending people to university and less interested in training people in the skills trades. That's one of the reasons we need to import labour because there has been a massive skills deficit in some key trades.
Controversially - i'd like to point out not all Brits work their asses off either, but i do agree front line soldiers returning from war should be better looked after. You can be an officer based in the UK earning 35k starting salary, plus free accom, food and flying/sea pay depending on your job, never see front line action or be at any particular risk - yet front line soldiers who sleep in tents in the worlds most deadly places, at constant risk of death, get half that. Go figure. It really gets my goat sometimes when people go on strike for a larger pay rise... try being a Rifleman.
It's funny you don't see people complaining about English speaking migrants. If there was any competition for my job, it's a small number of Eastern Europeans that contend for the same roles compared to the (much larger numbers) likes of the Aussies, South Africans and Americans. Thankfully all of these workers bring a lot to the table, as do those from every nation i've worked with, which in London seems to be most of them!
Britain needs to stop funnelling kids to university (and subsequent ~£30k debt they can't afford) who wouldnt of gone themselves, and encourage them to do something with a real career behind it. There's a lot more money in plumbing these days than call centres! The service industry is saturated by kids with pointless degrees, and that benefits neither the employers (expensive workers) or the potential employee (not enough jobs!).
I think we should drop the 'left' and 'right' bs, i personally don't subscribe to one side or the other, i have my own individual opinions about each issue, and because i suggest the thread reads like a daily mail article it doesn't mean i'm saying it's left or right, its just bullsh*t. Most papers are guilty of this, it's just that the DM is so bad it's laughable. It's engineered news designed to win headlines by intentionally and knowingly missing out key information and it's lazy journalism not providing a balanced view of the full picture behind a story. Sadly the public buy in to this, it becomes a big story, and we're all as a nation distracted from the real issues that would make these problems seem like a drop in the ocean. The politicians and media are to blame for most of the catastrophic issues we currently face, and it's them that's directing us to get angry at immigrants, benefit cheats and bankers bonuses.
But no, lets debate a few million quid on a payrise for MPs (that an independent council of people like you and me decided upon..after we asked them to..), because in the grand scheme of things, that'l really help the poor, the unemployed and the homeless.
How about we claim some interest back from the banks, or consider prosecuting whoever deregulated them and allowed them to trade our money, the guys that rated totally unstable CDO's made up of risky mortgage debt as AAA rated investments - or get our taxes from companies like Vodafone, Google, Starbucks (the company, not the franchisees), Apple, Amazon... the list goes on, we're talking BILLIONS of pounds - yet this article suggests most of the public aren't bothered enough to try and stop it.
Arhhhh politics headache - only a nutter who makes the catastrophic mistake to want to be a career politician could make the equally catastrophic decisions and policies that break countries.
It's funny you don't see people complaining about English speaking migrants. If there was any competition for my job, it's a small number of Eastern Europeans that contend for the same roles compared to the (much larger numbers) likes of the Aussies, South Africans and Americans. Thankfully all of these workers bring a lot to the table, as do those from every nation i've worked with, which in London seems to be most of them!
Britain needs to stop funnelling kids to university (and subsequent ~£30k debt they can't afford) who wouldnt of gone themselves, and encourage them to do something with a real career behind it. There's a lot more money in plumbing these days than call centres! The service industry is saturated by kids with pointless degrees, and that benefits neither the employers (expensive workers) or the potential employee (not enough jobs!).I think we should drop the 'left' and 'right' bs, i personally don't subscribe to one side or the other, i have my own individual opinions about each issue, and because i suggest the thread reads like a daily mail article it doesn't mean i'm saying it's left or right, its just bullsh*t. Most papers are guilty of this, it's just that the DM is so bad it's laughable. It's engineered news designed to win headlines by intentionally and knowingly missing out key information and it's lazy journalism not providing a balanced view of the full picture behind a story. Sadly the public buy in to this, it becomes a big story, and we're all as a nation distracted from the real issues that would make these problems seem like a drop in the ocean. The politicians and media are to blame for most of the catastrophic issues we currently face, and it's them that's directing us to get angry at immigrants, benefit cheats and bankers bonuses.
But no, lets debate a few million quid on a payrise for MPs (that an independent council of people like you and me decided upon..after we asked them to..), because in the grand scheme of things, that'l really help the poor, the unemployed and the homeless.
How about we claim some interest back from the banks, or consider prosecuting whoever deregulated them and allowed them to trade our money, the guys that rated totally unstable CDO's made up of risky mortgage debt as AAA rated investments - or get our taxes from companies like Vodafone, Google, Starbucks (the company, not the franchisees), Apple, Amazon... the list goes on, we're talking BILLIONS of pounds - yet this article suggests most of the public aren't bothered enough to try and stop it.
Arhhhh politics headache - only a nutter who makes the catastrophic mistake to want to be a career politician could make the equally catastrophic decisions and policies that break countries.
Interesting conversation. Original Govnor. I agree fully with your post. In America ANYTIME one makes ANY sort of statement in regards to immigration reforms that include any tightening of standards. (such as criminal background checks.) You will immediately be labeled as a racist by those that want totally open borders. They will also regurgitate the following much overused lines. Oh! You must watch Fox news. Or. Are you a member of the tea party? It is a tactic used to stop any opposing views points that may differ from theirs. Yet. The very same policy wonks whom advocate totally unregulated borders nor any form of ID to vote. Will have an apoplectic fit if you suggest that one does not need a background check to own a gun, or supervise children unattended. So one may ask why the big swing between the idea of unfettered access to a country. But rigorous checks for a citizen to own a firearm or other multitudinous things. It has nothing to do with support of immigrants by the open border policy wonks. It has everything to do with said policy wonks trying to change our country from within.
That said. I fully support LEGAL immigration. I fully support a guest worker program. So long as the immigrant/guest worker meets certain standards. I do not support aid of any sort for Illegal immigrants. I do not support immigrants demanding that the country they immigrated to adopt the standards of the country they abandoned.
That said. I fully support LEGAL immigration. I fully support a guest worker program. So long as the immigrant/guest worker meets certain standards. I do not support aid of any sort for Illegal immigrants. I do not support immigrants demanding that the country they immigrated to adopt the standards of the country they abandoned.
I enjoyed that rant - made sense and was eloquently put Jimmy. The only bit I disagree with is your views on University. There's no such thing as a pointless degree unless the grade you end up with is barely a pass, or you completely bomb it. Getting a degree is about a lot more than just the subject you study. However, I do agree that saddling a generation with £30k of debt at the beginning of their working lives will not do the future economy any good at all.
I guess i'm a bit of a cynic there, i'm a relatively recent grad and i've got lots of friends who, whilst i'd of never met them, would of done better if they hadn't bothered.
University doesn't instil ambition, sadly. It also doesn't suit a large proportion of students - education for education's sake isn't for everyone (i personally learn by doing..), the amount of students who drop out in the first few weeks, and then the first year proves that - the question is why were they encouraged to go in the first place?
I guess slightly contrary to the opinion i put out, am glad i went.. but i was lucky, and i've been fortunate with finding work. I only went because the Navy told me to do so, and i only finished it because i'd get paid more as an RAF pilot with a degree.
University doesn't instil ambition, sadly. It also doesn't suit a large proportion of students - education for education's sake isn't for everyone (i personally learn by doing..), the amount of students who drop out in the first few weeks, and then the first year proves that - the question is why were they encouraged to go in the first place?
I guess slightly contrary to the opinion i put out, am glad i went.. but i was lucky, and i've been fortunate with finding work. I only went because the Navy told me to do so, and i only finished it because i'd get paid more as an RAF pilot with a degree.
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Anonymous
Guest
People go to Uni cos society tells them they will then get a well paid job!
At least, that was me.....and when I found out the hard way that having a degree doesn't actually put you above other people, it was a hard lesson to learn, cos it meant everything I'd been told was a lie. I felt that as I had a degree I DESERVED certain jobs etc.
It was a long fall and the bump when I hit the ground hurt...for a long time!
At least, that was me.....and when I found out the hard way that having a degree doesn't actually put you above other people, it was a hard lesson to learn, cos it meant everything I'd been told was a lie. I felt that as I had a degree I DESERVED certain jobs etc.
It was a long fall and the bump when I hit the ground hurt...for a long time!
the amount of accounting graduates I see that think because they have a bit of paper that proves they can read a book, repeat like a parrot and remember some information when asked in an exam, they should be running multi million pound companies as soon as they graduate, is both sad and hilarious....bottom line is they are being churned out like cars on a production line and there are far too many of them for decent jobs.... and far too many of them with no idea of the real world.....
I would like to see people earning degrees in common sense mind you, I think that would be worth it's weight in gold...
I would like to see people earning degrees in common sense mind you, I think that would be worth it's weight in gold...
I disagree Bing. There are a lot of pointless degrees done by people who would've been better off doing vocational training or apprenticeships. I once knew a lad who did a degree at Lincoln University in Golf. Why? Because he wanted to be a pro-golfer and it helped him fund lots of on-course time. An extreme example maybe, but there are lots of crap universities churning out virtually worthless degrees and charging £9k a year for the privilege. They go to University because society only seems to place value on a university education these days and tells them that is what they should aspire to do rather than telling them they should aspire to develop their own particular talents to the maximum of their ability and valuing other non-academic training. If that's being a Doctor then great but if it's being a craftsman or woman, or plasterer, or a builder, that's also great too because we need those people as much as we need Doctors. Yet it seems we try to push everyone down an academic route and now have big skills gaps, hence why most building sites are now like mini Eastern European enclaves.
I agree with Bigdog. Immigration, properly regulated is necessary and to be encouraged and I have seen very few ex-Eastern Europeans here that don't work at least one job. We could learn a thing or two about their work ethic. But there are also dangers to us and some people want unfettered immigration because it suits their longer-term political or religious ambitions or because they want to change our secular society. It was reported last week that conservatively we have over 1m people who have an "un-confirmed immigration status". In other words we don't know whether they have a right to be here or not. In a country of only 60m that is quite frightening. If we don't know anything about these people how do we know how many of them are criminals, or have insurance in a car or pay any sort of tax to contribute to the state?
I agree with Bigdog. Immigration, properly regulated is necessary and to be encouraged and I have seen very few ex-Eastern Europeans here that don't work at least one job. We could learn a thing or two about their work ethic. But there are also dangers to us and some people want unfettered immigration because it suits their longer-term political or religious ambitions or because they want to change our secular society. It was reported last week that conservatively we have over 1m people who have an "un-confirmed immigration status". In other words we don't know whether they have a right to be here or not. In a country of only 60m that is quite frightening. If we don't know anything about these people how do we know how many of them are criminals, or have insurance in a car or pay any sort of tax to contribute to the state?
So, from the above it's not the universities that are the problem per se, it is the societal expectation and the education systems that is to blame for pushing people in the wrong direction. In some cases. What you are actually saying is that we should be better at identifying what young people are truly good at early on, and mentoring them towards the path that is right for them. The fact that there are a bunch of ex-polytechnics and colleges now classed as universities does not help with the quality of degrees available, and also does not help limit demand... Which of course we don't want to do as a country, as that would put higher education back in the 'elitist' bucket, and be seen to be preventing the young bettering themselves, and preventing the UK competing with other countries who churn of high numbers of graduates. It's all a vicious circle, and of course two major events have not helped those that have gone and gotten degrees - the introduction of £9k a year fees leaving them saddled with debt, and the recession that has been going on & off for almost the last 5 years that has severely curtailed the job market, and perhaps the ability / willingness of companies to pay a 'premium' graduate salary to someone with almost zero real-world experience.
I still believe a good degree from a good university is an advantage and a benefit to society - it's not all about learning by rote and churning out knowledge parrot fashion (though accountancy is pretty much applied maths, and is largely bound by immutable rules that do need learned that way). It also doesn't equip you to run a multinational company - I suffered a similar shock to Kevin when I left university and realised that all the organisational management, business strategy, global marketing techniques etc. were worthless to me in the very simple and bottom of the chain job I started in. However I think that a having good degree demonstrates tenacity, independence, creativity, an ability to learn, to absorb large amounts of information and come to informed opinions that you can put forward eloquently and coherently, and (sometimes
) intelligence. Cueball is right in suggesting common sense is by no means a guaranteed outcome of a university education, and of course all of the above can be learned through just getting a job and doing it well. Oh, and whilst having a degree is a tick box on just about every job description I have seen recently, it is just that and worth no more after a few years working experience, unless it's related to a professional discipline. I have no illusions that my own degree, despite being a good grade and from an excellent university, is worth any more than a tick in that box.
I am not sure how much sense any of that makes to be honest. When I graduated there were not the financial or economic pressures on us that there are on today's graduates, so perhaps I simply don't understand as I don't know enough about what it is like nowadays - my son is not close to the age where this is important yet, but he will be soon so I'd best start paying attention What I do know is that it is not simply unrealistic expectations of society or educational expense or worthless degrees that are making it hard for graduates to find jobs.
I still believe a good degree from a good university is an advantage and a benefit to society - it's not all about learning by rote and churning out knowledge parrot fashion (though accountancy is pretty much applied maths, and is largely bound by immutable rules that do need learned that way). It also doesn't equip you to run a multinational company - I suffered a similar shock to Kevin when I left university and realised that all the organisational management, business strategy, global marketing techniques etc. were worthless to me in the very simple and bottom of the chain job I started in. However I think that a having good degree demonstrates tenacity, independence, creativity, an ability to learn, to absorb large amounts of information and come to informed opinions that you can put forward eloquently and coherently, and (sometimes
) intelligence. Cueball is right in suggesting common sense is by no means a guaranteed outcome of a university education, and of course all of the above can be learned through just getting a job and doing it well. Oh, and whilst having a degree is a tick box on just about every job description I have seen recently, it is just that and worth no more after a few years working experience, unless it's related to a professional discipline. I have no illusions that my own degree, despite being a good grade and from an excellent university, is worth any more than a tick in that box.I am not sure how much sense any of that makes to be honest. When I graduated there were not the financial or economic pressures on us that there are on today's graduates, so perhaps I simply don't understand as I don't know enough about what it is like nowadays - my son is not close to the age where this is important yet, but he will be soon so I'd best start paying attention
What I do know is that it is not simply unrealistic expectations of society or educational expense or worthless degrees that are making it hard for graduates to find jobs.