Adebolajo & Adebowale

[envy]

the fact is that islam is the second largest religion in the world and if all muslims were like this, the world would be on fire and this kind of thing would be common place. the fact remains that these instances are extremely rare

Extremely rare? Rubbish. Yes the exact same circumstances are extremely rare but killing in the name of religion including Islam is far from rare, even today take a look in Iraq Muslims killing Muslims every day, Syria Muslims killing Muslims, Africa Muslims killing Christians and other Muslims and Christians killing Muslims, Israel Christian and Jews killing Muslims and Muslims killing Christians and Jews, Egypt Christians killing Muslims and Muslims killing Christians and other Muslims, I could go on and on killing because of faith is widespread throughout the world and has been for generations.

That’s one of the reasons I’m so glad that I don’t believe any of it

you have taken that comment out of context. i was referring to the occurrences of muslims having a mass campaign of killing in westernised countries. the occurrences you refer to are in-fighting and neighbours fighting which is common place all over the world and is not subject to any particular religion.

 

[original guvnor]

Envy, Get your facts right. Hitler was anti-Christian and Nazism was secular.

get your facts right, he was born and bought up as a catholic. and maybe he was molested by a priest to make him anti-christian, who knows but like all generalised statements here. the fact remains that christianity is what his first religion was

Again I'm not sure that is actually true. His mother was a devout Catholic but his father was anti-religious, so they had conflicting views on religion. He was baptised as a baby but that hardly makes him a Christian does it? I was too, but I consider myself an agnostic, not a Christian. In his adult life he was very much anti-Christian and the Nazi party was a secular organisation.

So your initial point linking Christianity to the holocaust is very wide of the mark. Not a particularly helpful contribution to this thread really.

 

[Z4MO]

'Religion' is much maligned. I would say that it's a minority who have the time,patience and calmness of character to fathom it, not least because most of the available scripture has been revised or manipulated.
It's saddens me that due to this and the behaviour of the majority of what I call blind believers in society, the truly intelligent people are put off even attempting to give it consideration.
I respect the person that seeks the truth and having done so takes a view whether that be in this case religion or other matter.
There are clearly people on this forum who have very noble qualities including sense of, justice, equality and equity which I applaud.

I spoke to three people yesterday who say they are Muslim, I asked all if they prayed 5 times a day and they all confirmed they did without fail, I asked what was the meaning of the lords prayer ( prayers are read in Arabic )which they use many times over in each of the daily prayers. Not one could answer.

I was born into a traditional Pakistani Muslim family (non practising) took on faith after studying it for myself at age 32

Anyway I'm off to the chippy now cos I'm Hank Marvin

 

[exdos]

Envy, Get your facts right. Hitler was anti-Christian and Nazism was secular.

get your facts right, he was born and bought up as a catholic. and maybe he was molested by a priest to make him anti-christian, who knows but like all generalised statements here. the fact remains that christianity is what his first religion was

Envy, we are ALL born faithless: and that includes you, me and Adolf Hitler. For most of us, any religious faith that we might later assume and believe is as result of the culture into which we are born, and for many, that is also the result of geographical location of one's culture at birth.

You have ignored the fact that Hitler rejected his initial religious Christian faith to act in a totally anti-Christian way. Adebolajo was also brought up as a Christian and rejected this faith to eventually become "a soldier of Allah". I wonder why he rejected a peaceful god to become a murderer on behalf of another god?

 

[Carol M]

Envy, Get your facts right. Hitler was anti-Christian and Nazism was secular.

get your facts right, he was born and bought up as a catholic. and maybe he was molested by a priest to make him anti-christian, who knows but like all generalised statements here. the fact remains that christianity is what his first religion was

Envy, we are ALL born faithless: and that includes you, me and Adolf Hitler. For most of us, any religious faith that we might later assume and believe is as result of the culture into which we are born, and for many, that is also the result of geographical location of one's culture at birth.

You have ignored the fact that Hitler rejected his initial religious Christian faith to act in a totally anti-Christian way. Adebolajo was also brought up as a Christian and rejected this faith to eventually become "a soldier of Allah". I wonder why he rejected a peaceful god to become a murderer on behalf of another god?

X 1 good post.

 

[The Badger]

Let drummer Rigbys family have them behind closed doors for half an hour ! I don't think they will need to spend much time in prison then ! Oh and film it and put it on sky news just to even up the score -

 

[paulgs1000]

I never thought to see such incidents on a street in the UK. I am shocked and disgusted and my heart goes out to those involved but there seems to be an aspect of this not covered. . .

in all the responses on historical background let's not forget that the UK has been involved in 100s of years of social development which has ultimately (at it's best) improved individuals rights and priviledges today. Most of these changes and improvements have come at great cost to many people who fought and died (some horrifically) for these causes - the suffragette movement being one example. In the main we would accept that this has been a dreadful process to bring about such development but it has taken years and much sacrifice to get to this point.

Many acts of extreme violence have been perpetrated by all sides and many have suffered on all sides, through this historical development but through a long and protracted path, the UK has thereby created improvements and protection of individuals rights.

By responding emotionally and with our gut - which is very understandable given this horrific incident - we can forget where we have got to and move backwards instead of forwards. However difficult and challenging to stand up for what thousands and millions of people have fought and died for - that being - representation and a fair trial (and a lot more besides) and instead stating how we would like to deal with those involved, are we responding the way we should?

Ghandi said 'An eye for an eye will leave us all blind' - and following so soon after Nelson Mandela's death - however dreadful and horrible this incident and the consequent process is, we have to take the right path; and this is said with the greatest of respect to all.

 

[Converted Steve]

I never thought to see such incidents on a street in the UK. I am shocked and disgusted and my heart goes out to those involved but there seems to be an aspect of this not covered. . .

in all the responses on historical background let's not forget that the UK has been involved in 100s of years of social development which has ultimately (at it's best) improved individuals rights and priviledges today. Most of these changes and improvements have come at great cost to many people who fought and died (some horrifically) for these causes - the suffragette movement being one example. In the main we would accept that this has been a dreadful process to bring about such development but it has taken years and much sacrifice to get to this point.

Many acts of extreme violence have been perpetrated by all sides and many have suffered on all sides, through this historical development but through a long and protracted path, the UK has thereby created improvements and protection of individuals rights.

By responding emotionally and with our gut - which is very understandable given this horrific incident - we can forget where we have got to and move backwards instead of forwards. However difficult and challenging to stand up for what thousands and millions of people have fought and died for - that being - representation and a fair trial (and a lot more besides) and instead stating how we would like to deal with those involved, are we responding the way we should?

Ghandi said 'An eye for an eye will leave us all blind' - and following so soon after Nelson Mandela's death - however dreadful and horrible this incident and the consequent process is, we have to take the right path; and this is said with the greatest of respect to all.

Very well said, a very intelligent thought provoking post, and you're right we should rise above this sort of evil, no matter how difficult it is, we are better than these evil sadistic people.

 

[Carol M]

I never thought to see such incidents on a street in the UK. I am shocked and disgusted and my heart goes out to those involved but there seems to be an aspect of this not covered. . .

in all the responses on historical background let's not forget that the UK has been involved in 100s of years of social development which has ultimately (at it's best) improved individuals rights and priviledges today. Most of these changes and improvements have come at great cost to many people who fought and died (some horrifically) for these causes - the suffragette movement being one example. In the main we would accept that this has been a dreadful process to bring about such development but it has taken years and much sacrifice to get to this point.

Many acts of extreme violence have been perpetrated by all sides and many have suffered on all sides, through this historical development but through a long and protracted path, the UK has thereby created improvements and protection of individuals rights.

By responding emotionally and with our gut - which is very understandable given this horrific incident - we can forget where we have got to and move backwards instead of forwards. However difficult and challenging to stand up for what thousands and millions of people have fought and died for - that being - representation and a fair trial (and a lot more besides) and instead stating how we would like to deal with those involved, are we responding the way we should?

Ghandi said 'An eye for an eye will leave us all blind' - and following so soon after Nelson Mandela's death - however dreadful and horrible this incident and the consequent process is, we have to take the right path; and this is said with the greatest of respect to all.

Very well said, a very intelligent thought provoking post, and you're right we should rise above this sort of evil, no matter how difficult it is, we are better than these evil sadistic people.

Yes, it is an intelligent and thought provoking post and of course, you are right in what you say but it is because we have fought and died for the rights and civilisation we now enjoy that this barbaric act carried out by two scum has provoked such outrage.
This type of behaviour is simply not tolerable, shocking and sickening and people will react the way they have. They were seen to commit the act and our instinct is to bypass the system and deal with them as guilty murderers.
Of course they will have their case heard in court, as you say, our country has fought for that right and way of dealing with crime and that is how it should be but these two, my god its difficult to feel comfortable allowing them to pass through the system and have the same rights as any other 'alleged' criminal.

 

[paulgs1000]

Carol M - I feel much the same as you and many others so I do understand and accept that such feelings are to be expected - as I said - with respect to all.

 

[Converted Steve]

Yes, it is an intelligent and thought provoking post and of course, you are right in what you say but it is because we have fought and died for the rights and civilisation we now enjoy that this barbaric act carried out by two scum has provoked such outrage.
This type of behaviour is simply not tolerable, shocking and sickening and people will react the way they have. They were seen to commit the act and our instinct is to bypass the system and deal with them as guilty murderers.
Of course they will have their case heard in court, as you say, our country has fought for that right and way of dealing with crime and that is how it should be but these two, my god its difficult to feel comfortable allowing them to pass through the system and have the same rights as any other 'alleged' criminal.

I totally agree Carol and I to in the back of my mind feel exactly the way you and many others do, but I still feel that we shouldn’t lower ourselves to their standards, if we behave like these scum then we are no better than them, we in a civilised society are better than that, its difficult I agree not to want retribution ‘an Eye for an Eye’ but no matter how hard it is we have rise above it or everything we have lived and died for over the centuries was pointless.

Slightly off topic but that’s why in a different discussion we have had regarding Marine A, I believe the courts decision is correct, of course I empathise with Marine A and his friends and family, but what he did makes us no better than the scum we are fighting in Afghanistan and other places around the world, we are better and we need to be seen to be better.

Surprisingly I’m not necessarily against the death penalty and in clear cut cases like Adebolajo and Adebowale I do think the death penalty should still apply, I don’t mean some barbaric death like ‘hung, drawn and quartered’ but a lethal injection, these scum really don’t deserve to be part of our society

 

[envy]

Envy, Get your facts right. Hitler was anti-Christian and Nazism was secular.

get your facts right, he was born and bought up as a catholic. and maybe he was molested by a priest to make him anti-christian, who knows but like all generalised statements here. the fact remains that christianity is what his first religion was

Envy, we are ALL born faithless: and that includes you, me and Adolf Hitler. For most of us, any religious faith that we might later assume and believe is as result of the culture into which we are born, and for many, that is also the result of geographical location of one's culture at birth.

You have ignored the fact that Hitler rejected his initial religious Christian faith to act in a totally anti-Christian way. Adebolajo was also brought up as a Christian and rejected this faith to eventually become "a soldier of Allah". I wonder why he rejected a peaceful god to become a murderer on behalf of another god?

pmsl peaceful god you say

i guess we can brush over the crusades, the endless killing of african slaves who were also christian by white christians in america.... or were they some other religion?? i wont even bother talking about segregation and racism that was rife there. is this the peaceful religion/ god you are talking of? furthermore, if it wasnt, a majority of white christians in america believed in segregation right up until about 40 years ago. hmmm, ok well how about the mass killing of aborignees in australia by the british and almost wiping out american indians in colonised america. i guess those are the peaceful teachings of a god you are referring to right?

i think the question is why would a normal person forsake a religion of peace and turn to murder if he didnt believe his initial religion was truly corrupt? the only thing i have to say is maybe he too was touched by a priest lol

as for the hitler thing, you are just trying to make excuses for him which is fair enough but your only downfall is that 95% of germany was still christian regardless of hitlers faith and they were the ones on the streets pulling the triggers not just the man giving orders..... i guess that never occurred to your small minded concept of religion and wars and trying to justify that the christian religion that you seem to want to put on a peddestal is far more vile than you deem to believe

its people like you that i find really disgusting because you do not have the ability to think and see things beyond your nose and whatever c*** is fed to you by the media. you are the type of person that hates immigrants yet given half the chance, would emigrate to hotter climes as soon as you could afford to. people with closed minds like you disgust me and that goes for carol too as she agrees with you given that she cant speak for herself but would just nod to inane arguments, diversions and justifications!

 

[Bing]

Not sure such a personal attack on someone you don't know is justified envy - pretty bad form mate.

 

[Stuart Truman]

Not trying to be provocative (although it might be taken that way) but isn't the God of the Christians, the same God of the Islamic faith and also the Jews?

"Judaism, Islam and Christianity are collectively known as "Abrahamic religions" because they trace their history to the covenant God made with Abraham in the Hebrew Bible."

So aside from questions of prophets and how these three faiths worship, aren't we talking about the same Deity here?

 

[Carol M]

its people like you that i find really disgusting because you do not have the ability to think and see things beyond your nose and whatever c*** is fed to you by the media. you are the type of person that hates immigrants yet given half the chance, would emigrate to hotter climes as soon as you could afford to. people with closed minds like you disgust me and that goes for carol too as she agrees with you given that she cant speak for herself but would just nod to inane arguments, diversions and justifications!

Find me disgusting do you along with Exdos?

You are out of order and I find that comment deeply bloody offensive.

You are completely narrow minded, you prove this in the ridiculous statements you come out with about religion, the military and your personal attacks on people who have dared to voice their opinion and then to me, who happened to x 1 it.

I most certainly can speak for myself but don't feel the need to more or less repeat what someone else has written when I agree with it. What is the benefit of doing that.

Can't speak for myself? Ha! what a joke.

 

[exdos]

its people like you that i find really disgusting because you do not have the ability to think and see things beyond your nose and whatever c*** is fed to you by the media. you are the type of person that hates immigrants yet given half the chance, would emigrate to hotter climes as soon as you could afford to. people with closed minds like you disgust me and that goes for carol too as she agrees with you given that she cant speak for herself but would just nod to inane arguments, diversions and justifications!

Envy,

I won't even attempt to formulate another civil resposnse to you. I wish you all the best.

 

[Carol M]

its people like you that i find really disgusting because you do not have the ability to think and see things beyond your nose and whatever c*** is fed to you by the media. you are the type of person that hates immigrants yet given half the chance, would emigrate to hotter climes as soon as you could afford to. people with closed minds like you disgust me and that goes for carol too as she agrees with you given that she cant speak for herself but would just nod to inane arguments, diversions and justifications!

Envy,

I won't even attempt to formulate another civil resposnse to you. I wish you all the best.

You're a better man than me Exdos, I think he's an idiot and because I can speak for myself, I don't mind saying so.

 

[Ste]

Well that escalated really quickly...

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S3 using Tapatalk.

 

[biggiz_40]

It's Christmas (time)

 

[original guvnor]

Just goes to show why all religion should be banned. They're all cults. Amazes me they still manage to brainwash people into believing it all.