A superb penultimate f1 race in store , or , maybe not !!

[DPG]

Not very good driving then was it to say the least. 7 titles, been in the sport 15 odd years, utterly reckless and desperate.

No it was a desperate move like Max attempts most races but like you said earlier on in the thread, this is racing and we want to see exciting overtaking. The Perez / Hamilton racing was a prime example of clean exciting racing.

 

[enuff_zed]

Not very good driving then was it to say the least. 7 titles, been in the sport 15 odd years, utterly reckless and desperate.

You not keen on Lewis then John?

 

[john-e89]

Not very good driving then was it to say the least. 7 titles, been in the sport 15 odd years, utterly reckless and desperate.

No it was a desperate move like Max attempts most races but like you said earlier on in the thread, this is racing and we want to see exciting overtaking. The Perez / Hamilton racing was a prime example of clean exciting racing.

Most races...? :? Nope. Agreed we want exciting racing so why all the Max hating..? He's not punted anyone off like that. Agreed totally on Perez\Hammy, awesome racing, only thing is Hammy wasn't happy about it, said it was dangerous driving over the radio...!! :rofl: Sorry, but that's funny...!

Hey, we all have our heroes and villians, it will always be the same and no one will agree, that's sport huh..!

 

[john-e89]

Not very good driving then was it to say the least. 7 titles, been in the sport 15 odd years, utterly reckless and desperate.

You not keen on Lewis then John?

Max is only just 24 and has never done that Enuff....he went a bit too aggressive in Brazil but it was a pretty slow corner. Copse simply isn't the place to try to pull off a reckless move like that, like him or not he could have seriously injured Verstappen or worse, just a crazy crazy stunt.

 

[enuff_zed]

Not very good driving then was it to say the least. 7 titles, been in the sport 15 odd years, utterly reckless and desperate.

You not keen on Lewis then John?

Max is only just 24 and has never done that Enuff....he went a bit too aggressive in Brazil but it was a pretty slow corner. Copse simply isn't the place to try to pull off a reckless move like that, like him or not he could have seriously injured Verstappen or worse, just a crazy crazy stunt.

We shall have to agree that our opinions differ.

 

[Ed Doe]

It's not that simple though Ed, he's got a track to clear, Marshall's to look out for, teams and drivers shouting at him, a best way to finish descion to make at the last race of the season all in a very short space of time, to say he was under pressure is putting it mildly.

We're all slightly biased in our views depending which driver we want to win, me included, I'm glad Max had the luck yesterday that Hammy has had during the season, 3 dnf's to 1 etc, hey that's Motorsport, it happens, but I am also trying to see it from a human perspective as well without trying to be too biased and I don't think Merc would be saying anything had Max not pitted for softs, which if we're being perfectionists here they should do, no difference is it, that would be wrong if that's the line people want to take. It's sport, it ain't perfect on anyone all the time, sometimes you need the rub of the green.

It absolutely is that simple. The FIA Regulations are black and white. The way the race ended and the decision Massi made, which was to deviate from those set regulations, was farcical for the sport.

I am deeply saddened that this is the circumstances in which Max, who is in my view a prodigiously talented driver, won his first championship. No question at all that he deserves to win the championship, however I think he will reflect on the circumstances in due course as well, and I don't think the victory will be quite as sweet in time. As I said before, if he had won it outright by racing wheel in other circumstances to those that transpired, to wheel it would have been wonderful - a proper clash of the titans of the sport with the victor crowned truly on the merit of their fight in the race. The way Max has won it under such contrived circumstances reflects exceptionally poorly on the sport and the governing body, whom have fundamentally engineered a situation that adherence to the regulations would not have otherwise permitted. There are no winners here - that Max won in this way is tainted by the poor decision-making process of the FIA, not following their own rulebook. Should Merc successfully overturn the decision and win by countback to the previous lap, it will be a hollow victory which I daresay Hamilton will not want either. If the result remains unchanged Merc will look like poor sports for challenging legally. If the result is overturned and Merc/Hamilton are champions, Red Bull will rightly feel absolutely robbed. It's a truly awful situation entirely of the FIA's own making.

 

[john-e89]

You not keen on Lewis then John?

Max is only just 24 and has never done that Enuff....he went a bit too aggressive in Brazil but it was a pretty slow corner. Copse simply isn't the place to try to pull off a reckless move like that, like him or not he could have seriously injured Verstappen or worse, just a crazy crazy stunt.

We shall have to agree that our opinions differ.

Listen here Enuff, get one thing lodged in your mind right from here on in....I'm right and anyone that doesn't agree is simply wrong, it's that simple and straightforward....! oke: :wink:

 

[john-e89]

It's not that simple though Ed, he's got a track to clear, Marshall's to look out for, teams and drivers shouting at him, a best way to finish descion to make at the last race of the season all in a very short space of time, to say he was under pressure is putting it mildly.

We're all slightly biased in our views depending which driver we want to win, me included, I'm glad Max had the luck yesterday that Hammy has had during the season, 3 dnf's to 1 etc, hey that's Motorsport, it happens, but I am also trying to see it from a human perspective as well without trying to be too biased and I don't think Merc would be saying anything had Max not pitted for softs, which if we're being perfectionists here they should do, no difference is it, that would be wrong if that's the line people want to take. It's sport, it ain't perfect on anyone all the time, sometimes you need the rub of the green.

It absolutely is that simple. The FIA Regulations are black and white. The way the race ended and the decision Massi made, which was to deviate from those set regulations, was farcical for the sport.

I am deeply saddened that this is the circumstances in which Max, who is in my view a prodigiously talented driver, won his first championship. No question at all that he deserves to win the championship, however I think he will reflect on the circumstances in due course as well, and I don't think the victory will be quite as sweet in time. As I said before, if he had won it outright by racing wheel in other circumstances to those that transpired, to wheel it would have been wonderful - a proper clash of the titans of the sport with the victor crowned truly on the merit of their fight in the race. The way Max has won it under such contrived circumstances reflects exceptionally poorly on the sport and the governing body, whom have fundamentally engineered a situation that adherence to the regulations would not have otherwise permitted. There are no winners here - that Max won in this way is tainted by the poor decision-making process of the FIA, not following their own rulebook. Should Merc successfully overturn the decision and win by countback to the previous lap, it will be a hollow victory which I daresay Hamilton will not want either. If the result remains unchanged Merc will look like poor sports for challenging legally. If the result is overturned and Merc/Hamilton are champions, Red Bull will rightly feel absolutely robbed. It's a truly awful situation entirely of the FIA's own making.

Yes Ed the rules are black and white but unfortunately or not humans in the thick of pressure are not. Personally I think Merc need to drop it, Hammy's had a good run as have Merc, if you want perfection the you'd have to go back over the season and put right any perceived wrong desicion, how would that be done..? TIme to move on and look forward to March and the new cars, it's sport, not life and death.

 

[enuff_zed]

Max is only just 24 and has never done that Enuff....he went a bit too aggressive in Brazil but it was a pretty slow corner. Copse simply isn't the place to try to pull off a reckless move like that, like him or not he could have seriously injured Verstappen or worse, just a crazy crazy stunt.

We shall have to agree that our opinions differ.

Listen here Enuff, get one thing lodged in your mind right from here on in....I'm right and anyone that doesn't agree is simply wrong, it's that simple and straightforward....! oke: :wink:

Listen here John, I can cope with being wrong in your mind, but simple? That's a step too far sir. I demand satisfaction! You can choose the weapons and I shall choose the location!

I'll see you at Copse!
I'll be on the inside. :roll:

 

[sp3ctre]

however I think he will reflect on the circumstances in due course as well, and I don't think the victory will be quite as sweet in time

Maybe in the short term, but if he wins another 2 or 3 championships this first one will just be a number, this farce will not be remembered in a few years.

It's also unclear (I think, correct me if I'm wrong) if you can just count back the last lap and declare the winner based on that. Is there precedent for that?

 

[Ole gits rule]

Like it was at Silverstone...

Silverstone had a massive impact (pun intended) on the championship. Lewis gained 25 points and Max 0. Not only that but Max's engine was cracked and had to be changed at the next race, penalising him further. Retribution was due and was delivered yesterday. Congrats. to Max and Red Bull.

As did the non race in Belgium - drove 2 laps behind the safety car just so they did not have to give punters their money back.

 

[enuff_zed]

I don't agree that Merc should pursue this to get the positions swapped, but if this course of action is the only one that will prevent next year being as badly managed then maybe it needs to go ahead?
Perhaps this has only come to light this year as there has been competition? In previous years, with Mercs just disappearing up the road, there have been no real incidents for anyone to have to make spot decisions on. Certainly none with such influential outcomes anyway.
Leave Max with the title that his last 2 or 3 years of performances have warranted, but use this fiasco positively to ensure it never happens again.

 

[sp3ctre]

I don't agree that Merc should pursue this to get the positions swapped, but if this course of action is the only one that will prevent next year being as badly managed then maybe it needs to go ahead?
Perhaps this has only come to light this year as there has been competition? In previous years, with Mercs just disappearing up the road, there have been no real incidents for anyone to have to make spot decisions on. Certainly none with such influential outcomes anyway.
Leave Max with the title that his last 2 or 3 years of performances have warranted, but use this fiasco positively to ensure it never happens again.

I agree with all the above. It's a weird situation... I guess usually in these enquiries there is a competitor or a team at fault, so the result will be sanctions or points deducted from the team. In this case neither team has done anything wrong, it's a cock up by the FIA, and so it does seem to be very complex.

There is no way the Race Director will be allowed to stay in his role next year. He will no doubt step down "to spend more time with his family", so F1 will save face a little ahead of 2022.

 

[slick]

I think the championship is going to be decided in the courts which is a terrible shame for both Lewis and Max and Masi has tarnished F1 , its no longer a sport, its a business with shareholders to appease. But 2022 is a new era, new regs, cars, driver changes etc........lots to look forward to........just remember , none of its real :|

 

[enuff_zed]

I think the championship is going to be decided in the courts which is a terrible shame for both Lewis and Max and Masi has tarnished F1 , its no longer a sport, its a business with shareholders to appease. But 2022 is a new era, new regs, cars, driver changes etc........lots to look forward to........just remember , none of its real :|

Lewis seems to carry a fair bit of weight in the team and his voice is listened to.
Cannot honestly see him agreeing to a course of action where he is handed the championship. With seven already under his belt that would all be tarnished by this one? So in years to come they would say, oh yes, he had 8, but one was dodgy. I think he'd rather come back next year and try to win it completely on merit.

 

[sp3ctre]

Lewis seems to carry a fair bit of weight in the team and his voice is listened to.
Cannot honestly see him agreeing to a course of action where he is handed the championship. With seven already under his belt that would all be tarnished by this one? So in years to come they would say, oh yes, he had 8, but one was dodgy. I think he'd rather come back next year and try to win it completely on merit.

I half agree with you. I think he would let them fight it out, then make a statement saying that he didn't want to win that way etc etc, but like I said earlier, in a few years time this will all be forgotten and Lewis will have won x world championships. It's like in boxing... been a few really badly scored fights, but they are all forgotten in the Hall of Fame.

 

[slick]

I think the championship is going to be decided in the courts which is a terrible shame for both Lewis and Max and Masi has tarnished F1 , its no longer a sport, its a business with shareholders to appease. But 2022 is a new era, new regs, cars, driver changes etc........lots to look forward to........just remember , none of its real :|

Lewis seems to carry a fair bit of weight in the team and his voice is listened to.
Cannot honestly see him agreeing to a course of action where he is handed the championship. With seven already under his belt that would all be tarnished by this one? So in years to come they would say, oh yes, he had 8, but one was dodgy. I think he'd rather come back next year and try to win it completely on merit.

I agree regards Lewis, But I was surprised by Toto's reaction and in fact he has gone down in my estimation , so wouldn't be surprised if Mercedes takes the FIA to court.

 

[Flyingfifer]

Not very good driving then was it to say the least. 7 titles, been in the sport 15 odd years, utterly reckless and desperate.

No it was a desperate move like Max attempts most races but like you said earlier on in the thread, this is racing and we want to see exciting overtaking. The Perez / Hamilton racing was a prime example of clean exciting racing.

The big difference being if Lewis punts Checo he risks the championship without any gain so he is far more inclined to be clean and safe

 

[Ed Doe]

We shall have to agree that our opinions differ.

Listen here Enuff, get one thing lodged in your mind right from here on in....I'm right and anyone that doesn't agree is simply wrong, it's that simple and straightforward....! oke: :wink:

Listen here John, I can cope with being wrong in your mind, but simple? That's a step too far sir. I demand satisfaction! You can choose the weapons and I shall choose the location!

I'll see you at Copse!
I'll be on the inside. :roll:

:lol: I applaud this - wonderful to have a decent debate without losing our sense of humour (which I haven't in ym post above John BTW

Fair enough, I think in a sport where anything less than perfection is brutally punished both on the track and within the teams (redbull driver changes last few seasons anyone?!) one can reasonably expect the governing body to be equally perfect, and I feel sad that ultimately we were robbed of watching a decent battle without politics and external influences playing a part.

I do agree to an extent with the 'just drop it' thing - there's no way anyone will come out of this well, I really don't know what I'd prefer to happen but I don't like the precedent being set here that a race result can be contested in a court of law. Seems ridiculous, smacks of poor-loser-ism and detracts from the fact it should all be about the racing above all else. But that's the world we now live in *shrugs*

Anyway, I also respect your opinion even if I don't totally agree with it christ what's this forum becoming, I'm off to start another covid thread :fuelfire: :rofl:

 

[Nanu]

Max is only just 24 and has never done that Enuff....he went a bit too aggressive in Brazil but it was a pretty slow corner. Copse simply isn't the place to try to pull off a reckless move like that, like him or not he could have seriously injured Verstappen or worse, just a crazy crazy stunt.

We shall have to agree that our opinions differ.

Listen here Enuff, get one thing lodged in your mind right from here on in....I'm right and anyone that doesn't agree is simply wrong, it's that simple and straightforward....! oke: :wink:

You sound like my wife!