I'm a mod on another (non-BMW) car forum, and we positively encourage people to contribute to f/s threads with discussion, known history, debate on pricing, etc. Normally it's positive. Sure, sellers get irked sometimes, but this approach has thrown out a couple of dishonest sellers in the past, and saved members of our community from buying dodgy motors. Helping their members - isn't that what forums are supposed to do?
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Yep.
I feel really close to the Z4 forum and keeping it open and self-moderated and just nice. I enjoy my Z4 and if I can either
a, help a member sell their car better by commenting on it, saying where they have missed details and so improve their ad etc, then having the discussion open is good...
b, help a pontential member looking for a car find out which are good, which might be bad, which might not suit their needs when asking about certain ones etc etc...
I think you have to take the good with the bad. Ultimately if people don't want to be part of the community vibe when selling their car, then don't sell it via a community based sales forum. It sounds harsh, but if we lose one part of it because of the bad, then we lose all the good bits too, and I think they are too valuable to lose. Indeed, they are the whole point we have a community in the first place, to help and look out for each other!
Dave
I feel really close to the Z4 forum and keeping it open and self-moderated and just nice. I enjoy my Z4 and if I can either
a, help a member sell their car better by commenting on it, saying where they have missed details and so improve their ad etc, then having the discussion open is good...
b, help a pontential member looking for a car find out which are good, which might be bad, which might not suit their needs when asking about certain ones etc etc...
I think you have to take the good with the bad. Ultimately if people don't want to be part of the community vibe when selling their car, then don't sell it via a community based sales forum. It sounds harsh, but if we lose one part of it because of the bad, then we lose all the good bits too, and I think they are too valuable to lose. Indeed, they are the whole point we have a community in the first place, to help and look out for each other!
Dave
Mr Whippy said:
While we differ on our views on this topic, I agree with that - I've just taken to putting bits on eBay now. I don't think the my car would go for sale now, but with some of the experiences people have had and with what I've done to mine, I'd stick to the regular commercial channels - not that it will be any great loss to the forum. But others' might.
While some forums have my preferred approach, as A11y describes, I accept things are a lot worse on other forums too!
If you think responses to a post / thread are likely to upset or annoy then opt out - unless you enjoy a scrap!
It's a policy I apply to any posts, not just sales. At the end of the day it's a predominantly friendly forum and Jim and the mods do a great job providing something we all enjoy and I don't expect them to have my point of view on everything. But that's life. I think we need to now respect their views on this matter and move on. It's up to Torrino whether he wants this thread removed.All I know is, I'm glad points were raised about this car that made potential buyers of it look a bit more closely and consider the price a second time etc...
I have no idea really, without having seen the car, but a friend of mine went blindly into buying a Z4 and got a clocked car! It took him ages sorting it out and had all manner of dodgy calls with the sellers who knew his address.
This forum is here to help owners, and potential owners out. It's an owners club.
The very first post on this thread was one asking for pics. Had that not even arrived, we'd likely not even have any pics on this thread. No one would really have known what the CAT D repairs were for etc etc...
What use is that for any buyer? None at all. It just pushes dealings into PM's where there is no transparrency or community support.
As said, I'm cool whatever might happen, but the whole point I'd use this section when I come to sell would be for the very reason that people CAN ask questions and asses the car, positively or negatively.
I post all my car issues on these forums, as you all know, so if that history turns up when I come to sell, so be it, I can reassure potential buyers in an environment where I'll get pulled up by others if I start to bullshit people...
If I have a dodgy car I want to get rid of, I wouldn't sell it via a forum I respect, I'd just trade it in or go via autotrader.
This forum classifieds section shouldn't be for people who don't want to sell a car transparrently and openly for the benefit of potential new members/owners!
Dave
I have no idea really, without having seen the car, but a friend of mine went blindly into buying a Z4 and got a clocked car! It took him ages sorting it out and had all manner of dodgy calls with the sellers who knew his address.
This forum is here to help owners, and potential owners out. It's an owners club.
The very first post on this thread was one asking for pics. Had that not even arrived, we'd likely not even have any pics on this thread. No one would really have known what the CAT D repairs were for etc etc...
What use is that for any buyer? None at all. It just pushes dealings into PM's where there is no transparrency or community support.
As said, I'm cool whatever might happen, but the whole point I'd use this section when I come to sell would be for the very reason that people CAN ask questions and asses the car, positively or negatively.
I post all my car issues on these forums, as you all know, so if that history turns up when I come to sell, so be it, I can reassure potential buyers in an environment where I'll get pulled up by others if I start to bullshit people...
If I have a dodgy car I want to get rid of, I wouldn't sell it via a forum I respect, I'd just trade it in or go via autotrader.
This forum classifieds section shouldn't be for people who don't want to sell a car transparrently and openly for the benefit of potential new members/owners!
Dave
Well hopefully the dust is settling on this one and I really appreciate the great input by everyone on what has now moved from the sale of a specific car to a more general discussion on transparancy of adverts.
I made a strong point on this thread in my posts to keep transparancy, challenge the advert for inacuracy, being misleading and be a forum of enthusiasts and not a commercial advertising place. I also offered the poster the opportunity to fully remove the thread and that was ignored. If you want anonymity to shift items, there are many commercial places such as PH, Autotrader or Ebay.
Having spoken to other mods the feeling is very much NOT to lock down sale adverts and to allow questions, challenges and comment. It's better to allow questions, despite the odd one that may appear unhelpful and over the last few years has worked really well.
If someone wants to ask if a set of wheel have been refurbed or original. If trims are included with a deflector, what's the mileage, year, etc., etc., then in 99% of sales it will increase the quality of the add, keep it at the top of the list and likely generate more sale opportunities and clarify mistakes.
If someone wants to challenge an aspect of an advert then it will likely flush out issues and benefit the reputation of the forum and protect perhaps a less informed seller.
I made a strong point on this thread in my posts to keep transparancy, challenge the advert for inacuracy, being misleading and be a forum of enthusiasts and not a commercial advertising place. I also offered the poster the opportunity to fully remove the thread and that was ignored. If you want anonymity to shift items, there are many commercial places such as PH, Autotrader or Ebay.
Having spoken to other mods the feeling is very much NOT to lock down sale adverts and to allow questions, challenges and comment. It's better to allow questions, despite the odd one that may appear unhelpful and over the last few years has worked really well.
If someone wants to ask if a set of wheel have been refurbed or original. If trims are included with a deflector, what's the mileage, year, etc., etc., then in 99% of sales it will increase the quality of the add, keep it at the top of the list and likely generate more sale opportunities and clarify mistakes.
If someone wants to challenge an aspect of an advert then it will likely flush out issues and benefit the reputation of the forum and protect perhaps a less informed seller.
Don't you just love Google... http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:BdSuKjxw-kIJ:www.z4-forum.com/forum/viewtopic.php%3Ff%3D11%26t%3D9823+torino+%22Possibly+buying+a+Z4+tonight%22&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=firefox-a&source=www.google.co.ukcj10jeeper said:
:evil:
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Anonymous
Guest
Hi Guys, well a lot of conflicing views here, but that's to be expected, we all see things differently.
I wasn't going to say any more on the subject, but feel i need to round things off. Perhaps this should be moved out of the for sale thread and into a discussion thread as clearly no sale will take place through this club.
cj10jeeper - I took on board what you said in your first post and it made me think about a few things, the only thing that really annoyed me was that you speculated from previous threads about the extent of damage (ie needing jigging, which it didn't) and felt this really shouldn't of been brought up.
I felt i covered this in my reply, and you're only other issue was your opinion on price, which is fair enough.
I think that a lot of you have automatically jumped to the conclusion that because i'm selling a car that has been registered damage I'm a dodgy used car salesmen trying to exploit people!
I feel unwelcome on this site for owning a car thats been damage repaired now, not sure how many other people have had their Z4's repaired, but i'm sure there are others.
I am a car enthusiast, and imo felt this is a good well looked after car (apart from the previous owner deciding to drive into something)
I think the main reason for not posting everything up is that it's very hard to show in pictures and words what the real extent of damage is, and i'm more than happy to go over with anyone viewing whats been done. (I would assume anyone looking at a car with cat d would want to know what was replaced?)
The photo of when it was delivered honestly does make it look worse than it is, remember these have aluminium bonnets that buckle up very easy, and once the new bits were bolted on everything lined up nicely, and it's made a fantastic car.
I'm not against leaving for sale threads open to discussion, we all make mistakes on what we value things at, I just wish people would think before ruining someones name.
So if mods could please move this out of the for sale section or delete if you'd prefer, we can all go back to enjoying our cars.
I wasn't going to say any more on the subject, but feel i need to round things off. Perhaps this should be moved out of the for sale thread and into a discussion thread as clearly no sale will take place through this club.
cj10jeeper - I took on board what you said in your first post and it made me think about a few things, the only thing that really annoyed me was that you speculated from previous threads about the extent of damage (ie needing jigging, which it didn't) and felt this really shouldn't of been brought up.
I felt i covered this in my reply, and you're only other issue was your opinion on price, which is fair enough.
I think that a lot of you have automatically jumped to the conclusion that because i'm selling a car that has been registered damage I'm a dodgy used car salesmen trying to exploit people!
I feel unwelcome on this site for owning a car thats been damage repaired now, not sure how many other people have had their Z4's repaired, but i'm sure there are others.
I am a car enthusiast, and imo felt this is a good well looked after car (apart from the previous owner deciding to drive into something)
I think the main reason for not posting everything up is that it's very hard to show in pictures and words what the real extent of damage is, and i'm more than happy to go over with anyone viewing whats been done. (I would assume anyone looking at a car with cat d would want to know what was replaced?)
The photo of when it was delivered honestly does make it look worse than it is, remember these have aluminium bonnets that buckle up very easy, and once the new bits were bolted on everything lined up nicely, and it's made a fantastic car.
I'm not against leaving for sale threads open to discussion, we all make mistakes on what we value things at, I just wish people would think before ruining someones name.
So if mods could please move this out of the for sale section or delete if you'd prefer, we can all go back to enjoying our cars.
Don't feel like it's a personal attack.
Had you posted the picture of the car before (the one from the google cache), and how it looks now, all fresh and spangly, maybe a list of what you have done to it, invoices to show tracking is good etc, then that would be cool... buy you didn't, which isn't so helpful for potential buyers via THIS specific forum (which is here for the benefit of Z4 owners and to encourage or allow fun happy worry free ownership)
We tend to want the best for both owners, and buyers, and potential owners, so people here will tend to want to see that info. I certainly would anyway.
Had this been a VX220 for instance, they are VERY picky about CAT c/d ratings. Most owners selling a cat c/d show the FULL damage before, repair pics, invoices and history behind that to reassure potential new owners. That is the nature of their community.
The one person who tried to do it dodgily was flogged on the internet (a VXR model iirc)
That is a really cool thing to see. It generates trust and makes sure that dodgy traders don't get in there, because such cars are just ignored or will be worth LOADS less.
Not saying your a dodgy trader, but on here, imo, you could have given lots more info that you must have available, to re-assure a potential buyer
Dave
Had you posted the picture of the car before (the one from the google cache), and how it looks now, all fresh and spangly, maybe a list of what you have done to it, invoices to show tracking is good etc, then that would be cool... buy you didn't, which isn't so helpful for potential buyers via THIS specific forum (which is here for the benefit of Z4 owners and to encourage or allow fun happy worry free ownership)
We tend to want the best for both owners, and buyers, and potential owners, so people here will tend to want to see that info. I certainly would anyway.
Had this been a VX220 for instance, they are VERY picky about CAT c/d ratings. Most owners selling a cat c/d show the FULL damage before, repair pics, invoices and history behind that to reassure potential new owners. That is the nature of their community.
The one person who tried to do it dodgily was flogged on the internet (a VXR model iirc)
That is a really cool thing to see. It generates trust and makes sure that dodgy traders don't get in there, because such cars are just ignored or will be worth LOADS less.
Not saying your a dodgy trader, but on here, imo, you could have given lots more info that you must have available, to re-assure a potential buyer
Dave
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Anonymous
Guest
Not a chance in hell I'd have bought this if repaired by DIY
lacroupade
Veteran
Kryton said:Not a chance in hell I'd have bought this if repaired by DIY
Bloody great big DITTO......first time I've had the chance to see this and personally I wouldn't have bought it with a professional job, never mind DIY. Worth around 60% of normal book as a CatD and even less if not done professionally.
No offence to the OP or whatever he found when he stripped it but thats just really really bad. :thumbsdown:
And because the original shots weren't in this post can I now say (i) thanks to zedsteve and (ii) CJ was, IMHO, right all along.
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Anonymous
Guest
Well the damage is done (no pun intended) however its put it was quite personal, with a lot of speculation/opinion that has irreversibly tarnished my name.
It's very odd now days, I think it's the ebay generation of buying cars, where everything is listed in extreme detail, expecting people to buy a car without even speaking to the owner or viewing the car.
I'm not asking potential buyers to buy blind, people who are genuinly interested will ask for more detail.
It's a long way from a 4 line ad in the paper.
I think it's best that the thread be deleted, it's giving a few people something to talk about and express there opinions for the past few days, but i really don't think there's any place for me in this community now so i'll be on my merry way, no hard feelings and all that.
It's very odd now days, I think it's the ebay generation of buying cars, where everything is listed in extreme detail, expecting people to buy a car without even speaking to the owner or viewing the car.
I'm not asking potential buyers to buy blind, people who are genuinly interested will ask for more detail.
It's a long way from a 4 line ad in the paper.
I think it's best that the thread be deleted, it's giving a few people something to talk about and express there opinions for the past few days, but i really don't think there's any place for me in this community now so i'll be on my merry way, no hard feelings and all that.
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Anonymous
Guest
Kryton said:Not a chance in hell I'd have bought this if repaired by DIY
It's this exact attitude that really gets me, it's your opinion and thats fine but about 15 bolts later it's looked like this;
The only reason it bent it up that much was because nothing solid was hit, again speculation that a photo cant describe.
I'm sure this has to be worth more than £4400 though surely?
Irrispective of the car, to destroy someones name is just not on.
doofus4000
Active member
Torino - I hope you have more luck on your next car buy/forum because you have been unfairly treated and crapped on here imo. adois
To me that just looks like a lot of bent panels... engine bay is fine and probably just the rad damaged, so looks good to me.lacroupade said:Kryton said:Not a chance in hell I'd have bought this if repaired by DIY
Bloody great big DITTO......first time I've had the chance to see this and personally I wouldn't have bought it with a professional job, never mind DIY. Worth around 60% of normal book as a CatD and even less if not done professionally.
No offence to the OP or whatever he found when he stripped it but thats just really really bad. :thumbsdown:
And because the original shots weren't in this post can I now say (i) thanks to zedsteve and (ii) CJ was, IMHO, right all along.
lacroupade
Veteran
I think I'll go and put my Justin Bieber CD on......
It *looks* fine, but it might not be.
CJ remembered the car, and so brought up the point about the damage. THAT is this forums classifieds mechanic working really nicely to make sure that ANY buyer becomes aware of a cars history. Great.
Simply saying that an interested buyer would be offered more info on request, isn't what this forum is about.
To not show the pre-accident damage and then repair of the car prior to sale is fine... but imo, it's not fine on a community spiritied forum where we are looking out for each other and trying to do the best by everyone.
For starters, it makes our classifieds section look like it just offers any old Z4's for sale on it, and that we don't care what gets sold on it. That means it's no more use than Pistonheads or Autotrader, or eBay, so why bother having it at all?
It's not a personal attack. I'm not gonna hold it against you.
Just re-do the advert with it's actual history (if you want to sell it here), and let people make their decisions on what they see, rather than what they don't see or know.
If you'd prefer to keep it's history relatively obscure to make sure you get a good price, then go via another classifieds channel. I won't hold it against you, but I do feel that it's a bit harsh shitting on your own doorstep that is the Z4 forum where we try look out for each other, like members here did when you bought the car in the first place and asked for advice!
Dave
CJ remembered the car, and so brought up the point about the damage. THAT is this forums classifieds mechanic working really nicely to make sure that ANY buyer becomes aware of a cars history. Great.
Simply saying that an interested buyer would be offered more info on request, isn't what this forum is about.
To not show the pre-accident damage and then repair of the car prior to sale is fine... but imo, it's not fine on a community spiritied forum where we are looking out for each other and trying to do the best by everyone.
For starters, it makes our classifieds section look like it just offers any old Z4's for sale on it, and that we don't care what gets sold on it. That means it's no more use than Pistonheads or Autotrader, or eBay, so why bother having it at all?
It's not a personal attack. I'm not gonna hold it against you.
Just re-do the advert with it's actual history (if you want to sell it here), and let people make their decisions on what they see, rather than what they don't see or know.
If you'd prefer to keep it's history relatively obscure to make sure you get a good price, then go via another classifieds channel. I won't hold it against you, but I do feel that it's a bit harsh shitting on your own doorstep that is the Z4 forum where we try look out for each other, like members here did when you bought the car in the first place and asked for advice!
Dave
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Anonymous
Guest
torino said:Kryton said:Not a chance in hell I'd have bought this if repaired by DIY
It's this exact attitude that really gets me, it's your opinion and thats fine but about 15 bolts later it's looked like this;
Yes, it is my opinion and I'm entitled to that, I don't want to see a "Newbie" on this site paying over the odd's and buying the car and not knowing it's history, after all they could think because the car is advertized on this enthusiasts site by a forum member that it will be perfect and well looked after.
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