FOR SALE BMW 2.5 56 plate z4 (immaculate )

[derin100]

What a complete load of nonsense being said above!

“Freedom of speech on forums” etc


As previously stated, of course we all form and have opinions on a every single car advert that we see. This is natural. However, that is a world away from the compulsion to constantly have to vocalise/publicise those opinions, especially when you form no part of any putative transaction.
That constitutes you being a busybody and a poke-nose, in something that is actually none of your business!

All of us have opinions. However, most of us realise that not everything that we think inevitably has to come out of our mouths. Especially, when it does not concern us in any shape or form.
It’s called “restraint”, “having a filter”, “thinking before we speak”, “thinking of the consequences of opening our gobs” etc.
Clearly, some people do struggle with this relatively simple concept.

As exampled here (yet again), this ‘poke-nosery’ has taken the form of, in as many words, publicly saying ( and, that is the essence):

“Your car is over-priced and is mis-described. Therefore, potential buyers steer clear! This car is not worth what the seller, who is also by definition a liar, is trying to fool people into buying from him. And, you can take that from me because I am an expert in these matters!” Yeah….”GLWTS” !

Imagine if you did this, not on Autotrader because it doesn’t have a comments section or forum, but if you persistently did it, for example, in the street outside someone’s house. Someone is selling their car and just as prospective buyers are showing interest in the car, you sidle up, uninvited with no intention of being a buyer yourself, and start saying out loud:

“This car isn’t worth anything like that! And, look how it has been mis-described. Take it from me, because I’m an expert, I would steer well clear of that one!”

Yes, freedom of speech certainly but what would people, rightly, think of you? Sticking your nose in, when it is absolutely none of your business!

In essence, how is this any different?

As said, all of us have opinions. Most of us have the ability to discern when and whether it is appropriate to vocalise those opinions. Sadly, there is a persistent minority on this forum who are seemingly not possessed of this faculty.

And, it is a very real and persistent theme on this forum. Otherwise, I wouldn’t have noticed it. I have been on many car forums since 1998 (nearly 30 years). It doesn’t happen to this extent elsewhere. Yet, it is a stand out feature here!

Sure, carry on championing ‘Freedom of Speech’ and carry on sticking your unsolicited nose in other people’s business. As far as I know, there’s no actual law against that either. That doesn’t make it right.

 

[Scubaregs]

Whether you have joined just to sell, or are a long term member putting up an ad, there is absolutely nothing wrong with other forum members pointing out inaccuracies in the ad.
As has already been said many people will seek out a forum hoping to buy an enthusiast owned car and would take no negative comments about a car for sale as proof it was as described.
Questioning value is slightly different, if the seller and buyer are happy with the price, jobs a good un. However the same caveat above applies, if the buyer doesn’t see the price being questioned they may well assume that the car is priced correctly.
The whole purpose of a forum is information, discussion and being a part of a like minded community.

 

[derin100]

This is IMO a different case to the usual sign-up-to-sell drama.

There's plenty in this advert that is factually incorrect, I think that needs to be highlighted. Don't know if that is due to dishonesty, ignorance or naivety... I'm not sure it matters.

Yes, dealers and autotrader ads always talk about "immaculate" etc, but personally I would hope for a higher standard of honesty from listings on here, otherwise what's the point?

This is the only place I've come across where cars are bought and sold with openness and honesty. I think that's something worth protecting.

Sadly, that is NOT the case!

Some years ago, following my advice, a friend bought an E85 via this forum from someone who will remain anonymous but who was very active here and gave the impression of being a ‘respected expert’. I don’t know if he is still on the E85 forum.

Even before she got home, the split-rim alloys started separating because bolts holding them together started sheering. Within a week, the 3.0 engine developed a serious fault. Within the month, she was buying a new replacement engine!

Did said ‘respected expert’ take any responsibility or assist her in any way? NO!

I too don’t like the word “immaculate” and never use it. It is not possible on a secondhand car. However, people do use it….and frequently! Why would you expect people on this forum not to? As a buyer one should be able to decide if one believes or subscribes to such a word or not. I never do.

If there are certain rules or standards to be upheld on a forum which pertain to, for example, the adverts for the sale of cars, then that should be the domain of the Moderators….not some posse of self-appointed poke-nose ‘experts’.

 

[CuppaTea]

What a complete load of nonsense being said above!

“Freedom of speech on forums” etc


As previously stated, of course we all form and have opinions on a every single car advert that we see. This is natural. However, that is a world away from the compulsion to constantly have to vocalise/publicise those opinions, especially when you form no part of any putative transaction.
That constitutes you being a busybody and a poke-nose, in something that is actually none of your business!

All of us have opinions. However, most of us realise that not everything that we think inevitably has to come out of our mouths. Especially, when it does not concern us in any shape or form.
It’s called “restraint”, “having a filter”, “thinking before we speak”, “thinking of the consequences of opening our gobs” etc.
Clearly, some people do struggle with this relatively simple concept.

As exampled here (yet again), this ‘poke-nosery’ has taken the form of, in as many words, publicly saying ( and, that is the essence):

“Your car is over-priced and is mis-described. Therefore, potential buyers steer clear! This car is not worth what the seller, who is also by definition a liar, is trying to fool people into buying from him. And, you can take that from me because I am an expert in these matters!” Yeah….”GLWTS” !

Imagine if you did this, not on Autotrader because it doesn’t have a comments section or forum, but if you persistently did it, for example, in the street outside someone’s house. Someone is selling their car and just as prospective buyers are showing interest in the car, you sidle up, uninvited with no intention of being a buyer yourself, and start saying out loud:

“This car isn’t worth anything like that! And, look how it has been mis-described. Take it from me, because I’m an expert, I would steer well clear of that one!”

Yes, freedom of speech certainly but what would people, rightly, think of you? Sticking your nose in, when it is absolutely none of your business!

In essence, how is this any different?

As said, all of us have opinions. Most of us have the ability to discern when and whether it is appropriate to vocalise those opinions. Sadly, there is a persistent minority on this forum who are seemingly not possessed of this faculty.

And, it is a very real and persistent theme on this forum. Otherwise, I wouldn’t have noticed it. I have been on many car forums since 1998 (nearly 30 years). It doesn’t happen to this extent elsewhere. Yet, it is a stand out feature here!

Sure, carry on championing ‘Freedom of Speech’ and carry on sticking your unsolicited nose in other people’s business. As far as I know, there’s no actual law against that either. That doesn’t make it right.

What's with the imagination? This is a public forum. Moderated too, so it's not the wild west.

You've decided you don't like something, so want it removed. Surely a better solution would be a minimum of 25 or even 50 posts before accessing post in this section? This ensures someone is interested in the scene (for want of a better description) and not the cheddar.

Oh, and congratulations on your 30 year old E-penis. Feel free to show it off at all opportunities.

Maybe you could think about how your opinion of the matter is no different than any other in this post?

 

[enuff_zed]

So yet again, after three pages of comings and goings, all we have proved is that opinions are like arseholes: everyone's got one.

 

[tiglon]

Sadly, that is NOT the case!

Some years ago, following my advice, a friend bought an E85 via this forum from someone who will remain anonymous but who was very active here and gave the impression of being a ‘respected expert’. I don’t know if he is still on the E85 forum.

Even before she got home, the split-rim alloys started separating because bolts holding them together started sheering. Within a week, the 3.0 engine developed a serious fault. Within the month, she was buying a new replacement engine!

Did said ‘respected expert’ take any responsibility or assist her in any way? NO!

I too don’t like the word “immaculate” and never use it. It is not possible on a secondhand car. However, people do use it….and frequently! Why would you expect people on this forum not to? As a buyer one should be able to decide if one believes or subscribes to such a word or not. I never do.

If there are certain rules or standards to be upheld on a forum which pertain to, for example, the adverts for the sale of cars, then that should be the domain of the Moderators….not some posse of self-appointed poke-nose ‘experts’.

Sorry, I can't help you with a car I've never seen, bought by someone I don't know from someone else I don't know.

It's a shame that your friend had a bad experience, but does that bad experience mean that we should abandon all standards, or does it mean we should try harder to uphold those standards?

All I know is that I had an excellent experience buying on here, with the seller being "immaculately" honest and open. That inspired me to try to continue that with my own listing's on here. It's a shame that this upsets you, as it seems like a "good thing" to me.

N.B. I am neither respected nor an expert, but I am generally honest and always try to be accurate.

 

[Bmwz4ruby]

Whilst this particular ad seems to contradict itself somewhat, you don’t buy a car off the words alone. The pics say the other half of the story.
Personally whenever I’m buying something (almost anything) I would research it so I’m fully in the know about the subject. The thought that someone would go on the for sale section and just buy a car without doing their own research is stupid (I’m sure there are plenty of these clowns about though). As for most people coming on here to buy a car I’m sure they would know what they are looking at and for. Therefore I’m not sure the micro analysis of every detail is essential.
Maybe a simple “this appears to be an i model and not a si” would have sufficed.
Just my opinion and it does seem to happen a lot in the for sale section.
Anyway GLWTS.

 

[Christophbiscof]

If you post on a public forum , it's everyone's business. This isn't anywhere near the same as two people chatting in a café and being interrupted. And it's extremely unlikely anyone will contact the seller on auto trader to carp about price or condition.

I'd have ignored it if the seller had the decency to post something along the lines of "Hi all. Am just here to use your free seller features. Happy motoring"

You get what you give.



Sorry Dad

Autotrader / Facebook / eBay are public too, do you spend the evening scrolling through ads and criticise anything on there as well

 

[enuff_zed]

Here we go…yet again!

After a brief period of (barely controlled) restraint, the ‘usual suspects’ on this forum, being unable to control themselves (yet again), proceed to pull someone else’s car and advert apart.

A car which they have absolutely no intention of buying themselves, yet presume it is their place to cast judgement upon and, in the process, completey blight that car and seller.

It is quite astonishing how this forum is perpetually cursed by this phenomenon. Despite 44 years of unbroken BMW ownership and BMW Car Club membership and having owned circa 70 BMWs, I have never come across a place quite like it. It must be the absolute worst place to try to sell a car!

You’re not going to be buying it. If there’s something you have an opinion about on a particular car or advert, as we all do on every single advert that we see, there is no imperative to vocalise or publish that opinion. Why? Because it’s none of your business!

It’s the business of the seller and the potential buyers….and, you are neither!

In my opinion, the only sensible solution, given that certain people seem unable to control themselves for anything but the briefest of periods, is for the moderators to permanently disable comments in this section.

Thank you for making me a 'usual suspect'. I feel that is a promotion from what most people call me.
If you have never come across a place like this and obviously don't enjoy it, then why loiter for 13 years? Is it just to have your say on these ads?
I believe as a member it is fair for me to add comments: the seller may not reralise they have made a mistake, in which case it is usually politely rectified. If they get stroppy then it serves to warn others; in particular, other new members who have joined to but a Z4.
I shall continue to only control myself for the briefest of periods, all the time people continue to arrive here and take us all for mugs.
I believe there is a facility in your settings to not see posts from any members you choose? That could be the answer to your sensitivities.

 

[Christophbiscof]

It is frankly laughable that you continue to have the (misplaced) arrogance to see yourself as an arbiter of other people’s business!

If a car doesn’t sell, whether that be due to it being seen as too high a price, or for any other reason, to potentially genuine prospective buyers, is no business of yours. It is the buyers. Your commentary has no place in that equation…except seemingly in your own arrogance.

Whether you have sold four cars (oooh gosh!) via this forum, Z4s or not, is similarly totally irrelevant. I can assure you that however many BMWs you think you have sold and, whether you have misled anyone or not, I have bought and sold a lot more than you.

However, this is irrelevant. The fact remains simple. This is none of your business.

I noted that for a brief time you did indeed make efforts to restrain yourself.

I am disappointed that you have clearly failed in those efforts.

No-one is doing that. You are just over valuing yours and making stuff up to bolster your valuation. Which is why you felt the need to join up here to try and sell IMO. If it ain't selling anywhere else, why would you think it would sell here? Everybody can find cars for sale everywhere in about 30 seconds with the internet.

I’ve valued it perfectly thanks. If you think otherwise

No-one is doing that. You are just over valuing yours and making stuff up to bolster your valuation. Which is why you felt the need to join up here to try and sell IMO. If it ain't selling anywhere else, why would you think it would sell here? Everybody can find cars for sale everywhere in about 30 seconds with the internet.

you all are it’s laughable , it’s been up for about a week I have no concern over it selling

 

[enuff_zed]

Autotrader / Facebook / eBay are public too, do you spend the evening scrolling through ads and criticise anything on there as well

Nope, because they are open to any mug and tbh I'm not sure I could lower my standards enough to be able to maintain any meaningful dialogue with the inhabitants.
This place is mostly populated with knowledgeable folk who do their best to aid and assist other like-minded Z4 owners. That's the difference. Had you not just arrived, you would have had time to work that out for yourself. X

 

[CuppaTea]

Autotrader / Facebook / eBay are public too, do you spend the evening scrolling through ads and criticise anything on there as well

Of course I scroll through Auto trader and Ebay. I'll pass on Face ache though, thanks all the same. I just keep on scrolling with Auto trader and give bad reviews on eBay if the vendor is deserving of criticism.

But these examples are not public forums, are they? It's like comparing the pub and your front room for drinking. Two vastly different experiences. Or the difference between walking in the pub to use their crapper without buying a drink, and walking into your house to take a dump without saying Hi.

 

[CliveN]

We should probably go to another thread where we can talk about forum etiquette rather than hijack yet another advert.

I have a potential solution as it seems that critique of adverts will not go away. We talked about it a few weeks ago and it is still happening. Done in a good way - not seemingly adversarial keyboard warrior style - then it’s a good way of fleshing things out especially for newbies who might not know the difference between a DISA and a VANOS. Then it’s good. But trashing adverts isn’t so good for the life of the forum, mainly because any seller/buyer (the seller might buy another) might be put off being a “member”.

My suggestion therefore is for a prominent STICKY saying that adverts may be actively critiqued by forum members and that this is not personal but ensuring we all get to know what the car is about. And to say, on the flip side, that advertising on here with a good well described car is a fantastic means to sell to enthusiasts looking for cars.

 

[enuff_zed]

We should probably go to another thread where we can talk about forum etiquette rather than hijack yet another advert.

I have a potential solution as it seems that critique of adverts will not go away. We talked about it a few weeks ago and it is still happening. Done in a good way - not seemingly adversarial keyboard warrior style - then it’s a good way of fleshing things out especially for newbies who might not know the difference between a DISA and a VANOS. Then it’s good. But trashing adverts isn’t so good for the life of the forum, mainly because any seller/buyer (the seller might buy another) might be put off being a “member”.

My suggestion therefore is for a prominent STICKY saying that adverts may be actively critiqued by forum members and that this is not personal but ensuring we all get to know what the car is about. And to say, on the flip side, that advertising on here with a good well described car is a fantastic means to sell to enthusiasts looking for cars.

All well and good, but the main gripe is that people just sign up and immediately advertise their car within 5 minutes.
If they were to do as many suggest; join the forum and spend a little time looking around; they would quickly grasp the etiquette required. They could also peruse a few similar adverts to pick out the good from the bad. The 'STICKY' would not then be required.
I'm sure I'm not alone in simply being frustrated that people think this an extension of FB Marketplace, rather than a fully functioning and incredibly useful Z4 Database which is constantly being updated for the good of all.

 

[CuppaTea]

All well and good, but the main gripe is that people just sign up and immediately advertise their car within 5 minutes.
If they were to do as many suggest; join the forum and spend a little time looking around; they would quickly grasp the etiquette required. They could also peruse a few similar adverts to pick out the good from the bad. The 'STICKY' would not then be required.
I'm sure I'm not alone in simply being frustrated that people think this an extension of FB Marketplace, rather than a fully functioning and incredibly useful Z4 Database which is constantly being updated for the good of all.

A great example of this is the 3 stage manifold mod. Probably costs about £100 and a couple of hours. Adds value to the sale (and 40bhp)

 

[Deek]

Personally, I think the discussions on for sale adverts, warts and all, is a great thing. For someone like me, previous E86 owner and lurker for my next car, reading through for sale adverts and comments helps me work out what it is I need to be looking out for in terms of service, mods, maintenance etc and also which aspects of that I hold most value on.
Anyone selling a car on here without doing similar background reading, looking at types of adverts that have and don’t have this kind of thread, quite rightly get picked out for it.
Good E85 & E86’s are getting thin on the ground we need long term knowledgeable members to continue to be the gatekeepers. Otherwise the for sale section becomes a bit like Gumtree.

 

[Christophbiscof]

Nope, because they are open to any mug and tbh I'm not sure I could lower my standards enough to be able to maintain any meaningful dialogue with the inhabitants.
This place is mostly populated with knowledgeable folk who do their best to aid and assist other like-minded Z4 owners. That's the difference. Had you not just arrived, you would have had time to work that out for yourself. X

I’ve found so far it’s mainly people that have nothing better to do.

People who have never seen the car claiming it’s not clean, and then people like yourselves getting upset that I missed a letter on an ad.

 

[enuff_zed]

and then people like yourselves getting upset that I missed a letter on an ad.

Nope, I think you spelled 'immaculate' correctly.

 

[Usel]

Personally, I think the discussions on for sale adverts, warts and all, is a great thing. For someone like me, previous E86 owner and lurker for my next car, reading through for sale adverts and comments helps me work out what it is I need to be looking out for in terms of service, mods, maintenance etc and also which aspects of that I hold most value on.
Anyone selling a car on here without doing similar background reading, looking at types of adverts that have and don’t have this kind of thread, quite rightly get picked out for it.
Good E85 & E86’s are getting thin on the ground we need long term knowledgeable members to continue to be the gatekeepers. Otherwise the for sale section becomes a bit like Gumtree.

My step father is terrible at buying second hand cars however he is great is every other aspect. He'll go off on a whim and buy any example of the model he wants without doing any homework.

His most recent purchase is a Jaguar XF estate. He was absolutely smitten with it when showing me round it. A month later and he tells me it needs a new rear subframe as its rotten. It's a £2.5k fix. IT IS THE MOST COMMON & WELL DOCUMENTED FAULT found on them.

I wish he could join forums like this one for buying his cars.

The members here who are accused of being 'toxic are the ones who contribute the most to the forums and attract new members. Without them there wont be a forum.

Every forum in the past that has disappeared were the first to clip the wings of their most active members.

 

[Christophbiscof]

Of course I scroll through Auto trader and Ebay. I'll pass on Face ache though, thanks all the same. I just keep on scrolling with Auto trader and give bad reviews on eBay if the vendor is deserving of criticism.

But these examples are not public forums, are they? It's like comparing the pub and your front room for drinking. Two vastly different experiences. Or the difference between walking in the pub to use their crapper without buying a drink, and walking into your house to take a dump without saying Hi.

It’s a publicly open website forum, you know what public means right? No rule says you need to make internet friends before you list your car

Look at the state of the comments because I missed a letter, and trying to de value my car probably because they overpaid for theirs when it’s nowhere near as clean. Sad