E89 Prices

[derin100]

An interesting mix of opinions:

On the one hand, people saying are they want a 35i/35is but that they can’t find one and that there aren’t many available (because there never really were ‘that’ many?).

Yet, at the same time, others saying the ones that are available are “too expensive”.
What they perhaps should be saying is that “they don’t want to pay those prices” not that the cars aren’t inherently worth that.

Furthermore, there’s acknowledgment that people tend to buy these cars not out of necessity but rather as a ‘toy’ to treat themselves. Inevitably, with two-seater sports cars this is going to be a highly seasonally dependent phenomenon.

It’s been a long cold winter…it always is! Therefore, a plausible explanation as to why the ones that have been sitting around for months for sale, over the winter is…just that!

As the days get longer and warmer and potential buyers come out of hibernation, if they want that ‘particular toy’ a couple of £K (which is what seems to be being quibbled about?) more for the toy that the really want isn’t really going to make very much difference.

The reasons IMHO that the ones above are so relatively low in price is that 1) they are leggy 2) the seller is trying to or wants to sell them at the wrong time of year e.g a dealer under pressure of needing a turnover.

There’s also talk of this notional “crash” in prices. However, particularly for good examples of rare cars, I don’t think this stands up. I sold both my E85 Z4M and Alpina Roadster S for good money last summer because they were both very good examples…with low mileage…and at the right time of year! I think those are the crucial factors at this end of the Z4 spectrum, not whether something is a couple of £k one way or the other.

Surely, it’s just simple supply and demand?

Two things:
1. Last summer you would have been able to ask decent money for those cars. In the past 6 months, the used car market has absolutely nosedived.
2. I don't think the outright price is a problem. It's more the spread of pricing. I've been offered two early 35i SEs with low-ish miles for £10k (one for slightly less). It suddenly becomes very hard to justify a car that's a few years younger with different bumpers being almost double that. When even those early SE cars aren't selling, it's a tough one to explain why those £16-18k cars are worth what is being asked.

Some might suggest that scarcity should drive up the prices of those late M-Sport cars. The problem with that is that people were saying the same thing about the Z4M, relative to the cooking E85s/86s. The bottom has absolutely fallen out of the Z4M market in recent times.
https://collectingcars.com/for-sale/200 ... m-coupe-11

Auctions are the litmus test for all of these things. If there are enough people who want to buy something, it will drive the auction prices up. That 56k-mile Z4M coupe linked above was being talked up at silly prices two years back. It went for £15k when push came to shove in an auction.

Two years ago, it would have made those silly numbers. https://collectingcars.com/for-sale/200 ... 4m-coupe-6

Very interesting! I did note that I had seen a couple of Z4M Coupes at much lower prices than when I had previously looked. I must admit, I hadn’t followed things too closely over the last six months. But, that one you showed on Collecting Cars is REALLY surprising!

I hadn’t reaised things had changed so much in six months.

I must also admit that I bought a low mileage 35i only about 6 weeks ago just before Xmas…and didn’t really pay much attention to prevailing price trends. I just saw it…really wanted that particular car…and just bought without too much attention to the price!

[derin100]

In some ways I’m surprised selling prices not asking prices are so high…any E89 with roof problems can be a multi thousand pound problem in the hands of the wrong garage and an N54 can be even worse…

On the FB side of town not a day goes by with yet another roof issue…

The N54 issues tend to be less binary..slow fall off in performance, increase in rattles, increas leakage etc..

The 35i that I’ve just bought just had a major repair/servicing done on the roof (with receipt to prove) by some place that apparently knows what they doing on these.

[Avityesboy]

I think it’s tough going in at a certain price point with lots of spec and options available too…
I was prepared before Christmas to pay about 11 for an iS with around 80k which seemed to be where they were…
Maybe luckily as really being a purest wanted a manual so had to be a 35i, my mates son was selling his, so picked it up at 9k with 50k miles….value wise it’s a good deal but if I’d have paid 11 for the iS it would have been ok as it’s a car I wanted…
I wouldn’t stress too much about a grand here or there in the long run, get what makes you happy…
Worst feeling is when you pay average to high then have to throw a load of money at it straight away on faults…

[Mr Tidy]

That sounds like a pretty good deal, and a manual 35i seems to be quite a rarity.

[derin100]

I think it’s tough going in at a certain price point with lots of spec and options available too…
I was prepared before Christmas to pay about 11 for an iS with around 80k which seemed to be where they were…
Maybe luckily as really being a purest wanted a manual so had to be a 35i, my mates son was selling his, so picked it up at 9k with 50k miles….value wise it’s a good deal but if I’d have paid 11 for the iS it would have been ok as it’s a car I wanted…
I wouldn’t stress too much about a grand here or there in the long run, get what makes you happy…
Worst feeling is when you pay average to high then have to throw a load of money at it straight away on faults…

Yes…that’s what I bought too just before Xmas…a manual 35i with 47K miles…but paid more for it.

[derin100]

That sounds like a pretty good deal, and a manual 35i seems to be quite a rarity.

I bought a manual 35i just before Xmas. As you say, they’re quite rare so I paid more for it.

[Avityesboy]

35i, you’ll never regret the last of the proper gearboxes

[DaveP]

Two things:
1. Last summer you would have been able to ask decent money for those cars. In the past 6 months, the used car market has absolutely nosedived.
2. I don't think the outright price is a problem. It's more the spread of pricing. I've been offered two early 35i SEs with low-ish miles for £10k (one for slightly less). It suddenly becomes very hard to justify a car that's a few years younger with different bumpers being almost double that. When even those early SE cars aren't selling, it's a tough one to explain why those £16-18k cars are worth what is being asked.

Some might suggest that scarcity should drive up the prices of those late M-Sport cars. The problem with that is that people were saying the same thing about the Z4M, relative to the cooking E85s/86s. The bottom has absolutely fallen out of the Z4M market in recent times.
https://collectingcars.com/for-sale/200 ... m-coupe-11

Auctions are the litmus test for all of these things. If there are enough people who want to buy something, it will drive the auction prices up. That 56k-mile Z4M coupe linked above was being talked up at silly prices two years back. It went for £15k when push came to shove in an auction.

Two years ago, it would have made those silly numbers. https://collectingcars.com/for-sale/200 ... 4m-coupe-6

But of course you have your 'buying' hat on. It's always funny how our attitudes change slightly when we have our 'selling' hat on.

You said yourself that you thought my recently sold car was expensive, yet I thought it was a great price.
And I sold it (in the middle of Winter) for good money!

That's a very selective observation. I've been pretty consistent about E85 prices with my owner hat on too. I'd have loved to have been riding a wave of consumer optimism now that I'm selling my Z4. Truth is that I've lost money on it because I bought it two years ago. Thankfully a small loss doesn't really bother me too much.

Owners clubs are a bad place to have conversations about values, because too many people have skin in the game. It doesn't do anyone any good to sit around convincing ourselves that our cars are worth more than people are paying for them.

Two facts remain true:
1. There are a lot of E89s (particularly 35i/is) that have been sitting unsold for months
2. The bottom has fallen out of the 'fun' car market in the past 6 months

You did very well to sell your car, but that doesn't change the facts above.

[DaveP]

That sounds like a pretty good deal, and a manual 35i seems to be quite a rarity.

I bought a manual 35i just before Xmas. As you say, they’re quite rare so I paid more for it.

It's somewhat unintuitive but, in spite of the rarity, the manuals I've seen advertised have generally been cheaper than the autos.

There are several manual 35i examples sitting unsold on Autotrader for less than £10k. If I wanted a manual, I'd jump on one of these!

[derin100]

That sounds like a pretty good deal, and a manual 35i seems to be quite a rarity.

I bought a manual 35i just before Xmas. As you say, they’re quite rare so I paid more for it.

It's somewhat unintuitive but, in spite of the rarity, the manuals I've seen advertised have generally been cheaper than the autos.

There are several manual 35i examples sitting unsold on Autotrader for less than £10k. If I wanted a manual, I'd jump on one of these!

Well, I’ve been looking since November and I haven’t seen many of those kind of cars sitting on AT at sub-£10K. The only sub-£10K manual examples on there are three very leggy - two at the 100k miles mark.

Mine is on a mileage of not even half that (47k miles) with a FSH etc. Mine certainly wasn’t sub-£10K.

[derin100]

Two things:
1. Last summer you would have been able to ask decent money for those cars. In the past 6 months, the used car market has absolutely nosedived.
2. I don't think the outright price is a problem. It's more the spread of pricing. I've been offered two early 35i SEs with low-ish miles for £10k (one for slightly less). It suddenly becomes very hard to justify a car that's a few years younger with different bumpers being almost double that. When even those early SE cars aren't selling, it's a tough one to explain why those £16-18k cars are worth what is being asked.

Some might suggest that scarcity should drive up the prices of those late M-Sport cars. The problem with that is that people were saying the same thing about the Z4M, relative to the cooking E85s/86s. The bottom has absolutely fallen out of the Z4M market in recent times.
https://collectingcars.com/for-sale/200 ... m-coupe-11

Auctions are the litmus test for all of these things. If there are enough people who want to buy something, it will drive the auction prices up. That 56k-mile Z4M coupe linked above was being talked up at silly prices two years back. It went for £15k when push came to shove in an auction.

Two years ago, it would have made those silly numbers. https://collectingcars.com/for-sale/200 ... 4m-coupe-6

But of course you have your 'buying' hat on. It's always funny how our attitudes change slightly when we have our 'selling' hat on.

You said yourself that you thought my recently sold car was expensive, yet I thought it was a great price.
And I sold it (in the middle of Winter) for good money!

That's a very selective observation. I've been pretty consistent about E85 prices with my owner hat on too. I'd have loved to have been riding a wave of consumer optimism now that I'm selling my Z4. Truth is that I've lost money on it because I bought it two years ago. Thankfully a small loss doesn't really bother me too much.

Owners clubs are a bad place to have conversations about values, because too many people have skin in the game. It doesn't do anyone any good to sit around convincing ourselves that our cars are worth more than people are paying for them.

Two facts remain true:
1. There are a lot of E89s (particularly 35i/is) that have been sitting unsold for months
2. The bottom has fallen out of the 'fun' car market in the past 6 months

You did very well to sell your car, but that doesn't change the facts above.

It is true that owners forums aren’t the best place to get opinions on prices of cars out ‘in the real world’. There’s often an element of members wishing to demonstrate their prowess and knowledge in these matters and that “they know their onions” and could have got a better deal than the next guy.

I’ve seen this a lot over more than 25 years of being on various BMW forums. However, I been coming on this Z4 forum for the last 12 years and I have said it before that nowhere else have I experienced this phenomenon of people talking down the values of their very own cars more so than here! It is a recurring and constant feature here.

I sold my Alpina last summer for nearly £10,000 more than people here were estimating values! I also sold my Z4M for significantly more than the figures being talked about in the M Marketplace section on here.

[Z450]

Good point on what forums value cars at. No question prices have dropped. I saw it on a thread a while ago a chap was trying to sell a E89 3.0l manual for around £7500, with no luck. A specialist bought it and had it advertised at £9990, a the odd member just did not think it would sell when it struggled at £7500, it sold in the end… there are many factors when selling cars from persons locality to the quality of the advert etc

[derin100]

Good point on what forums value cars at. No question prices have dropped. I saw it on a thread a while ago a chap was trying to sell a E89 3.0l manual for around £7500, with no luck. A specialist bought it and had it advertised at £9990, a the odd member just did not think it would sell when it struggled at £7500, it sold in the end… there are many factors when selling cars from persons locality to the quality of the advert etc

Absolutely correct!

[DaveP]

It is true that owners forums aren’t the best place to get opinions on prices of cars out ‘in the real world’. There’s often an element of members wishing to demonstrate their prowess and knowledge in these matters and that “they know their onions” and could have got a better deal than the next guy.

I’ve seen this a lot over more than 25 years of being on various BMW forums. However, I been coming on this Z4 forum for the last 12 years and I have said it before that nowhere else have I experienced this phenomenon of people talking down the values of their very own cars more so than here! It is a recurring and constant feature here.

I sold my Alpina last summer for nearly £10,000 more than people here were estimating values! I also sold my Z4M for significantly more than the figures being talked about in the M Marketplace section on here.

Suspect that the difference here is that there are a lot more 'mature' owners than other owners' forums. I was quite shocked by the age demographic of the Z4 Facebook group when I joined! At 42 I was expecting to feel old, but it's quite the opposite.

I'm browsing various M3/M4 forums and groups for M4 convertibles, and the profile is very different. Lots of younger guys, cars mostly owned on finance and for a relatively short amount of time. Values get talked up, and anything to the contrary is dismissed. Logically it's probably because there are a load of owners there who are trying to own for a short amount of time and get out without losing their shirts.

I don't own cars to make money. I don't go into fun car ownership trying to minimise my losses. I buy fun cars so I can enjoy them without the stress of worrying about values. Cars make great servants and terrible masters!

[Beerman]

Good point on what forums value cars at. No question prices have dropped. I saw it on a thread a while ago a chap was trying to sell a E89 3.0l manual for around £7500, with no luck. A specialist bought it and had it advertised at £9990, a the odd member just did not think it would sell when it struggled at £7500, it sold in the end… there are many factors when selling cars from persons locality to the quality of the advert etc

That dealer has gained a strong reputation and manages to command high prices with ell above valuation guides.

A lot of people won't buy a car privately. That is partly due to fear, but most people want to drive in with their old car and back out with their new car.

Dealers do use valuation guides for trade ins and also sell finance far more expensive than borrowing from the bank.