Z4C to 911 possabilty
- Thread starter monkadill
- Start date
Yes..
I was wrong
Porsche cars North America HAD to release official figures due to a class action lawsuit against them..
But it was only for IMS failure on The M96,not the other issues. 8% was the official figure for IMS failure throughout the production run of the M96,the 15% figure was a speculative figure that encompassed all the problems that the M96 encounters.These figures are what the OPC has seen from in and out of warranty cars,remember many more will be in specialists and independants..
Its not internet rumouring,the engine is very poor in design.... Simple...
Tom.... You cant check an IMS bearing under service conditions,the gearbox and flywheel has to be removed to check,and even then unless you remove the bearing totally you cannot fully check condition..
Servicing the vehicle correctly has absolutely nothing to do with longevity of IMS bearing....
I was wrong
Porsche cars North America HAD to release official figures due to a class action lawsuit against them..
But it was only for IMS failure on The M96,not the other issues. 8% was the official figure for IMS failure throughout the production run of the M96,the 15% figure was a speculative figure that encompassed all the problems that the M96 encounters.These figures are what the OPC has seen from in and out of warranty cars,remember many more will be in specialists and independants..
Its not internet rumouring,the engine is very poor in design.... Simple...
Tom.... You cant check an IMS bearing under service conditions,the gearbox and flywheel has to be removed to check,and even then unless you remove the bearing totally you cannot fully check condition..
Servicing the vehicle correctly has absolutely nothing to do with longevity of IMS bearing....
It absolutely will cost you more to run a 911 than a Z4. Pretty much every available Porsche part will retail at more than its BMW equivalent. Pretty much every Porsche dealer and Indy labour hour will cost you more than a BMW equivalent.
I have previously owned a few kit cars and one of them had a lot of Porsche parts on it. Loads of people told me that there is now a healthy independant specialist network available to Porsche owners that is reasonably priced and that coupled with more availability of previously enjoyed parts from specialist breakers the cost of Porsche ownership is not the high risk game of Russian Roulette it used to be. Well in my experience this proved to be utter shite and everything I needed was silly money if it had the word Porsche attached to it. So much so that I even modified the car to take non Porsche equivalents so I could not be held to ransom any more.
I absolutely love the 1980s 911 turbo and it would be my dream to own one but the Zed is as much fun, more reliable and a fraction of the financial risk.
If I was stinking rich of course I'd bin the Zed for a 911 turbo in a heartbeat! :lol:
I have previously owned a few kit cars and one of them had a lot of Porsche parts on it. Loads of people told me that there is now a healthy independant specialist network available to Porsche owners that is reasonably priced and that coupled with more availability of previously enjoyed parts from specialist breakers the cost of Porsche ownership is not the high risk game of Russian Roulette it used to be. Well in my experience this proved to be utter shite and everything I needed was silly money if it had the word Porsche attached to it. So much so that I even modified the car to take non Porsche equivalents so I could not be held to ransom any more.
I absolutely love the 1980s 911 turbo and it would be my dream to own one but the Zed is as much fun, more reliable and a fraction of the financial risk.
If I was stinking rich of course I'd bin the Zed for a 911 turbo in a heartbeat! :lol:
Porsche specialists are Porsche approved unlike the BMW equivalent so service history is not an issue take it to any of the best specialists we use Strasse. The servicing cost is pretty much the same as the Z4M in fact my M has cost more as more has gone wrong with it so far in the 3 years Ive had it. Comparing oil/brake services and main servicing the cost has been about the same.
Here are your service prices from Strauss (997 is the same as 996)
http://www.strasse.co.uk/service.asp
So ye absolutely ridiculously expensive... :roll:
Strausse have been extremely helpful they always go through your car with you under the ramp fantastic service.
Like I said the problems are there I'm not arguing about that, I just think they are over exaggerated. The IMS north america lawsuit you talk about only affected cars between 2001 and 2005. All cars after that have a new designed IMS, including most 997s including ours and I would say have been replaced.
If you read what I said.. You check the condition of the IMS by the quality of your oil by having an oil test, which is normal in the world of 911 ownership, if the oil has signs of microscopic pieces of metal then the IMS is disintegrating therefore they replace it. I didn't say anything about eyeball checking it. You do exactly the same to find out the condition of your half shaft bearings in the Z4M.
In terms of checking the the RMS your correct they drop the gearbox, 911s were designed for quick access to the engine and releasing just a few bolts drops the engine... But specialists instead of dropping the engine drop the gearbox as it doesn't take as long and it takes no time at all to replace the seal thats what they did to check our 911 and it was replaced as its a cheap part might as well do it for piece of mind. Hours labour...
In terms of servicing the vehicle properly what I meant was preventative measures and all 911 dealers and specialists do this as the norm. Also ensuring the car is warm so it doesn't suffer from oil starvation in the first few minutes of running as an owner is very important to ensure the longevity of the parts. Like I said many of the cars that have suffered are because the oil wasn't warm especially early on in their life. You'll find most catastrophic engine failure happens to cars below 30k.
All I can go off is personal experience, that our car has had numerous oil inspections and has had the IMS seal replaced with an upgraded part... And guess what the engine hasn't blown up... :roll:
People love getting on the band wagon about 911s and everyone thinks their an expert because they have read a few threads.
I did a huge amount of research on these issues and I've talked to a lot of specialist in the no. As I knew there are problems but that won't stop having enjoyment out of the car you just have to know the issues and deal with them. Stupid scaring people into thinking if you buy one it will blow up.
Again I bring back to the S54, there were huge recalls because of engine failure with half shaft bearings, they changed the size of them and the viscosity of the oil but that doesn't stop them going bang. Like I said the S54 problem was diluted because of the amount of models BMW make, you read any review of the M cars with the S54 and everyone will tell you about possible engine failure. At the time of the 996 they only made the boxster and the 911 it was made out to be a huge deal.
All high performance cars have issues and the more expensive they get the more problems they have. My uncle has a 355 and his last major service was 5k. Chris Harris just put a link up to his 512s recent service... cost him 3.5k. So if 8k is a lot for an engine what about 3.5k and 5k for servicing...
http://www.pistonheads.com/news/default.asp?storyId=29737
Here are your service prices from Strauss (997 is the same as 996)
http://www.strasse.co.uk/service.asp
So ye absolutely ridiculously expensive... :roll:
Strausse have been extremely helpful they always go through your car with you under the ramp fantastic service.
Like I said the problems are there I'm not arguing about that, I just think they are over exaggerated. The IMS north america lawsuit you talk about only affected cars between 2001 and 2005. All cars after that have a new designed IMS, including most 997s including ours and I would say have been replaced.
If you read what I said.. You check the condition of the IMS by the quality of your oil by having an oil test, which is normal in the world of 911 ownership, if the oil has signs of microscopic pieces of metal then the IMS is disintegrating therefore they replace it. I didn't say anything about eyeball checking it. You do exactly the same to find out the condition of your half shaft bearings in the Z4M.
In terms of checking the the RMS your correct they drop the gearbox, 911s were designed for quick access to the engine and releasing just a few bolts drops the engine... But specialists instead of dropping the engine drop the gearbox as it doesn't take as long and it takes no time at all to replace the seal thats what they did to check our 911 and it was replaced as its a cheap part might as well do it for piece of mind. Hours labour...
In terms of servicing the vehicle properly what I meant was preventative measures and all 911 dealers and specialists do this as the norm. Also ensuring the car is warm so it doesn't suffer from oil starvation in the first few minutes of running as an owner is very important to ensure the longevity of the parts. Like I said many of the cars that have suffered are because the oil wasn't warm especially early on in their life. You'll find most catastrophic engine failure happens to cars below 30k.
All I can go off is personal experience, that our car has had numerous oil inspections and has had the IMS seal replaced with an upgraded part... And guess what the engine hasn't blown up... :roll:
People love getting on the band wagon about 911s and everyone thinks their an expert because they have read a few threads.
I did a huge amount of research on these issues and I've talked to a lot of specialist in the no. As I knew there are problems but that won't stop having enjoyment out of the car you just have to know the issues and deal with them. Stupid scaring people into thinking if you buy one it will blow up.
Again I bring back to the S54, there were huge recalls because of engine failure with half shaft bearings, they changed the size of them and the viscosity of the oil but that doesn't stop them going bang. Like I said the S54 problem was diluted because of the amount of models BMW make, you read any review of the M cars with the S54 and everyone will tell you about possible engine failure. At the time of the 996 they only made the boxster and the 911 it was made out to be a huge deal.
All high performance cars have issues and the more expensive they get the more problems they have. My uncle has a 355 and his last major service was 5k. Chris Harris just put a link up to his 512s recent service... cost him 3.5k. So if 8k is a lot for an engine what about 3.5k and 5k for servicing...
http://www.pistonheads.com/news/default.asp?storyId=29737
If you want a warranted older Porsche, keep an eye on 911virgin's website. They have some lovely cars come in and offer a decent warranty. They're well regarded by a few friends who took their first Porsche steps with them.
http://www.911virgin.com
http://www.911virgin.com
The data for the IMS was only upto 2005 because that was the data asked for ..
The redesigned IMS bearing is no better than the one before it.. Which is shown as you had to have yours changed at 6k miles on a 2007 car,that shows that bad IMS bearings where used for at least 10 years of a 12 year M96 engine run....The only significant change was when the DFI unit was brought out,and that has inherent problems and its found that there is incidence of bore scoring.
The main problem with all but the earliest engines is bore scoring...There all bore score,and it can be due to a few things,very high temperature in the rear cylinders due to badly designed coolant flow and poor jacketing. They can get that hot that the cylinder liner microseizes the piston and takes the piston lining of the piston wall.....Bore score appears immedietly,to what degree depends on quite a few factors.
The microseizure cannot be felt,heard or detected...
By the way... Changing an RMS isnt an hours labour..
The official time is 6 hours....
Are you sure that you had your seals changed on your IMS ???
I have probably changed 8 in my time,as we always change them when we do a clutch..And as it happens im halfway through a clutch,dual mass flywheel and RMS on a Boxster 3.2s....
I have never heard of an S54 blow a half shaft bearing
Oh.... If you think that Porsche analyse every oil change then your in cloud cuckoo land,i know a tech that works at the Wilmslow OPC and the stuff he tells me would make your hair curl..
The redesigned IMS bearing is no better than the one before it.. Which is shown as you had to have yours changed at 6k miles on a 2007 car,that shows that bad IMS bearings where used for at least 10 years of a 12 year M96 engine run....The only significant change was when the DFI unit was brought out,and that has inherent problems and its found that there is incidence of bore scoring.
The main problem with all but the earliest engines is bore scoring...There all bore score,and it can be due to a few things,very high temperature in the rear cylinders due to badly designed coolant flow and poor jacketing. They can get that hot that the cylinder liner microseizes the piston and takes the piston lining of the piston wall.....Bore score appears immedietly,to what degree depends on quite a few factors.
The microseizure cannot be felt,heard or detected...
By the way... Changing an RMS isnt an hours labour..
The official time is 6 hours....
Are you sure that you had your seals changed on your IMS ???
I have probably changed 8 in my time,as we always change them when we do a clutch..And as it happens im halfway through a clutch,dual mass flywheel and RMS on a Boxster 3.2s....
I have never heard of an S54 blow a half shaft bearing
Oh.... If you think that Porsche analyse every oil change then your in cloud cuckoo land,i know a tech that works at the Wilmslow OPC and the stuff he tells me would make your hair curl..
Tom, it sounds like I'm having a pop at you but I'm not..
Having owned 911's myself and worked on many Porsches I'm my 30 years as a mechanic I find their level of engineering is mediocre at best, whereas their marketing department is brilliant. Rolex must have the same AE behind them..lol...
What I find very dismaying is the prices of repair items for Porsche..
If you get bore scoring and your gearbox starts to jump out of gear( another common problem) then you are looking at £10,000 repair bill for reconditioning, maybe more..
If the same happened on an S54 then worst case would be £4000, probably less..
That's what makes a 996 and 997 a financially unatractive car to own.
Having owned 911's myself and worked on many Porsches I'm my 30 years as a mechanic I find their level of engineering is mediocre at best, whereas their marketing department is brilliant. Rolex must have the same AE behind them..lol...
What I find very dismaying is the prices of repair items for Porsche..
If you get bore scoring and your gearbox starts to jump out of gear( another common problem) then you are looking at £10,000 repair bill for reconditioning, maybe more..
If the same happened on an S54 then worst case would be £4000, probably less..
That's what makes a 996 and 997 a financially unatractive car to own.
we,l take it all 
They are a great car with cast iron reliability..
All alloy body so not heavy and is suprisingly nimble.They all seem to be specced well from what i have seen and worked on.
They are a true GT car,back road blasting isnt its forte,but long drives will see you get out at the other end fresh as a daisy..
Seats are comfortable,and the cabin is a nice place to be.....I love the paddle shift with the auto blips on downshift,very nice.There is no real known or expensive issues with them.
Downsides...
Fuel consumption.....I get 18 mpg on the daily 6 mile commute,its all stop and start.. 31 Mpg can be achieved on a run,which is pretty good considering its a 4.2 V8...
Tax... Most are in the £490 a year bracket.
Insurance for me was cheap.....45 yr old,fully comp with missus on too.. £231 PA with protected no claims bonus.
All alloy body so not heavy and is suprisingly nimble.They all seem to be specced well from what i have seen and worked on.
They are a true GT car,back road blasting isnt its forte,but long drives will see you get out at the other end fresh as a daisy..
Seats are comfortable,and the cabin is a nice place to be.....I love the paddle shift with the auto blips on downshift,very nice.There is no real known or expensive issues with them.
Downsides...
Fuel consumption.....I get 18 mpg on the daily 6 mile commute,its all stop and start.. 31 Mpg can be achieved on a run,which is pretty good considering its a 4.2 V8...
Tax... Most are in the £490 a year bracket.
Insurance for me was cheap.....45 yr old,fully comp with missus on too.. £231 PA with protected no claims bonus.
