Z4 MC trackday upgrade: camber plates and Tyres

Lele

Member
Hi man!

I'm new member here...I'm the happy owner of a Z4 MC.

Yesterday i try the car for the first time in a track, and was very exiciting!

But now I'm planning some upgrade... :evil:

Sure for the next step i will buy an H&R or Bilstein coilover kit, but I'm looking at the same time about camber plates...

I know that TCKLine need some modification for this type of coilover, there are some other products, maybe not from America? :P

And what about Anti-Roll Bars? I don't find nothing by H&R or Eibach... :|

Last questions---about tires..

Wiht OEM wheels for track tyres there is notinh on the 225/45 and 255/40, someone try some other size? maybe a 235/40 front and 265/35 rear?

If i got 19 wheels i can use the CSL size, 235/35 and 265/30 with Michelinc PSCup or the new Toyo R888

Many thanks!
 
If you plan to track your Z4M, don't bother with H&R or Bilstein. H&R is just about the worst coilovers you can get for the Z4/Z4M no matter how cheap they are (yes they're cheap for a reason). Bilstein PSS9/PSS10 is too soft and doesn't offer enough adjustments. Go with TCK or KW V3 if you're going to be tracking. TCK is noisier than the KW V3 (front strut clunks), but you can get linear springs and you choose your own spring rates. TCK coilovers are also lighter than the KW V3 if unsprung weight is any concern for you.

Many people have mounted 245/40/18, 275/35/18 tires on their Z4M stock rims.

OEM CSL size is 235/35/19 & 265/30/19.
 
GP20 said:
If you plan to track your Z4M, don't bother with H&R or Bilstein. H&R is just about the worst coilovers you can get for the Z4/Z4M no matter how cheap they are (yes they're cheap for a reason). Bilstein PSS9/PSS10 is too soft and doesn't offer enough adjustments. Go with TCK or KW V3 if you're going to be tracking. TCK is noisier than the KW V3 (front strut clunks), but you can get linear springs and you choose your own spring rates. TCK coilovers are also lighter than the KW V3 if unsprung weight is any concern for you.

Many people have mounted 245/40/18, 275/35/18 tires on their Z4M stock rims.

OEM CSL size is 235/35/19 & 265/30/19.

Hi GP!
thanks for your answer... I know what you say about coilover...but at the moment what I understand is that everyone tell me something different... so everyone have some parts that prefer, and this is absolutely normal! So about the coiolver I want to decide by my self... :lol:

And now i tell you why at the moment I'm thinking about H&R Kit: the cheap price is beacause you have no adjustments, only the height of the car (+/- 3 centimeter), and the shocks are Bilstein that my garage will revise for special tack use. I don't need adjustments for the simple reason that I'm not a recer, I have no telemetry and what i see with motorcylce track use, suspension adjustments are very hard to do! :)

But thanks for your suggestions, TCK products are my favourite, but i prefer tu buy something that here in Italy people have some experience (and about KW i heard review really different from user tu user!

No news about camber plates and anti roll bars here in Europe? Or anyone try the TCK camber plates with H&R o Eibach springs? They fit without any modify?
 
BMS redesigned Ground Control's E46 sway bars to work with the Z4 M. You can order them from Chris at BMS through email ([email protected]) or phone (714-429-0257). I also recommend TCK's coilovers over KWs because of the increased ability to tune the TCK's for the track. I believe you can also order those through BMS. I am also running TCK's camber plates, although we added an E46 330xi bushing to reduce stress on the shock tower.
 
I use H&R E46 CSL front and rear adjustable anti roll bars ( because I have E46 M3 front and rear axle/hubs etc ) and Intrax 1k2 coilovers which come with adjustable top mounts as standard. I also use CSL rims with PS Cup tyres. Great combination in my opinion. It's always wise to fit decent suspension bushes and joints as a top priority otherwise your wasting money on good suspension parts. Suspension and steering geometry gives better results than all the mods in the world so don't bother fitting anything unless you can have it set up properly. Think of it as buying the most expensive hunting scope on the market but not bothering to zero it and wondering why you can't hit a deer at ten paces! If your gonna do it, do it right. The other thing to be careful of is buying "coilovers" that arn't coilovers. I've seen some kits that use a seperate spring and damper in the original locations and glorified Mcpherson struts. These are not coilovers. If you do get coilovers be sure to cornerweight the car properly. That's the whole purpose of coilovers after all.
 
Weak brakes will weaken your performance more than anything else.

Better brakes will improve your lap time more than suspension.
 
Blacklines said:
Weak brakes will weaken your performance more than anything else.

Better brakes will improve your lap time more than suspension.
-LOL, WRONG!

For the Z4 M the first thing you want is R-comp tires. After that, you will want suspension and track pads.
 
Its a bit more complicated than brakes are better than suspension or vice versa. Making a crap attempt at improving the suspension such as sticking a set of coilovers on the car and expecting it to handle like an F1 won't really gain you much because you havn't addressed the worst or more important aspects of BMW suspension tuning. If you do the job properly it will obviously give you more gains than whacking in a set of track pads. If on the other hand you do a proper job on the brakes it will give you more gains than throwing a set of uprated springs on the car.

The other problem is that the original brakes cook themselves quickly if you push them. If you want to do more than three laps at a time then I don't see a problem with addressing the brake issue as a priority. To me it would be a significant gain to be able to stay on track for longer without the brake fluid boiling and the pads overheating. The suspension on the other hand will not overheat or fail after the first three laps it will just be crap!

Personally I find my BBK to be a total godsend, I brake very heavily and very deep into corners and the standard brakes just can't take that kind of abuse. If however you tend to be light on the brakes and they don't give you any problems on the track then tackle the suspension first.

Anyway, brakes are easy things to improve, suspension is a totaly different ball game. I have easily spent over 10kGBP on my suspension, steering, chassis etc to get the handling the way I like it. Do not be fooled into thinking its a simple case of bolting on a few shiney new bits.

Tyres are however the most important aspect of all. Everything you do is transferred to the road via those tyres. If they are useless then nothing else can work to the best of its ability. With tyres though you have to make a proper job of setting up the geometry and keeping an eye on tyre pressures. If you don't its another complete waste of time and money and you will miss out on all that potential.
 
Palantirion said:
Blacklines said:
Weak brakes will weaken your performance more than anything else.

Better brakes will improve your lap time more than suspension.
-LOL, WRONG!

For the Z4 M the first thing you want is R-comp tires. After that, you will want suspension and track pads.

Really???

The standard brake setup are toast for trackdays. I would certainly look at a pad upgrade as a MINIMUM before doing any other trackday-related upgrade. R-Comp tyres are all well and good, but they won't help you if you can't stop at the end of that long-straight!
 
sixspeed said:
Really???

The standard brake setup are toast for trackdays. I would certainly look at a pad upgrade as a MINIMUM before doing any other trackday-related upgrade. R-Comp tyres are all well and good, but they won't help you if you can't stop at the end of that long-straight!
-Track pads are more necessary on some tracks than on others. I run my street pads at Willow, for example, and lose very little lap time because of it. Even at a track like Cal Speedway you can run street pads and just apply the brakes easier. That's driver controlled. What the driver can't increase on his own is the stickiness of the tires. You will gain a LOT more time running 4-6mph faster through every turn, and carrying that speed onto every straight, than you will by being able to brake 20% later. A beginning driver may actually benefit from having to brake sooner as it will allow him more time to mentally prepare for turn-in and pick his visual cues. Pads are my #2 choice after tires, but more for safety that lap time.
 
Ok lets see if I've got this right. Blacklines comment about brakes being a high priority was laughable but now it's a good idea but only on safety grounds and the standard brakes are fine as long as you don't use them too much?

How about this, if the driver has excellent brakes he ( or she ) can choose whether to brake half way down the straight to aid with visual cues etc and as his ability and confidence grows he can gradualy decrease the braking distance rather than being stuck with early braking because that's all their capable of. Track tyres will aid in the braking ability of the car as well as cornering so good brakes will make the best of good tyres just as much as good suspension. I can't vouch for any other racers out there but I do most of my overtaking under braking into a corner so good brakes are the highest priority for me. I couldn't imagine braking 20% earlier than I do, it's just unthinkable, I'm still trail braking as I enter the corner until I need the tyres to dedicate themselves to holding lateral G's.

I agree that good suspension is also a high priority but people very seldom tune the suspension properly. I think the biggest and easiest gains an amatuer driver can make on a limited budget is to go for tyres and brakes and learn how to brake properly by tranferring the cars weight over the front ( dual step variable pressure braking etc ). A brilliant suspension setup will prove very advantageous but that takes more than sticking on a set of coilovers and a strut brace. Incidently the first thing you should change on any BMW suspension is the front wishbone rear bushes and the rear trailing arm bushes. Any other mods including track tyres can only work proprly if the tyres are contacting the ground at the optimum angle rather than being free to move around as dictated by the forces exerted on the standard rubber dohnut bushes but thats a whole other story.
 
Curtis said:
Ok lets see if I've got this right. Blacklines comment about brakes being a high priority was laughable but now it's a good idea but only on safety grounds and the standard brakes are fine as long as you don't use them too much?

How about this, if the driver has excellent brakes he ( or she ) can choose whether to brake half way down the straight to aid with visual cues etc and as his ability and confidence grows he can gradualy decrease the braking distance rather than being stuck with early braking because that's all their capable of. Track tyres will aid in the braking ability of the car as well as cornering so good brakes will make the best of good tyres just as much as good suspension. I can't vouch for any other racers out there but I do most of my overtaking under braking into a corner so good brakes are the highest priority for me. I couldn't imagine braking 20% earlier than I do, it's just unthinkable, I'm still trail braking as I enter the corner until I need the tyres to dedicate themselves to holding lateral G's.

I agree that good suspension is also a high priority but people very seldom tune the suspension properly. I think the biggest and easiest gains an amatuer driver can make on a limited budget is to go for tyres and brakes and learn how to brake properly by tranferring the cars weight over the front ( dual step variable pressure braking etc ). A brilliant suspension setup will prove very advantageous but that takes more than sticking on a set of coilovers and a strut brace. Incidently the first thing you should change on any BMW suspension is the front wishbone rear bushes and the rear trailing arm bushes. Any other mods including track tyres can only work proprly if the tyres are contacting the ground at the optimum angle rather than being free to move around as dictated by the forces exerted on the standard rubber dohnut bushes but thats a whole other story.
-I would recommend brake pads if the guy was racing, but for HPDE/track days it's really not that important unless he is visiting a demanding track. You aren't going to be dive-bombing anyone at a driving school, so passing under braking really isn't relevant.

Maybe it's easier to learn with never-fade brakes. But maybe it's better to learn with brakes that will experience a range of ability relative to driver abuse. Then he would learn. Personally I think it's most important for a new driver to learn proper entry technique. It starts by getting it into his head that you need to slow the car down earlier than you think. Almost every novice starts by late-braking and that completely screws up his ability to learn the proper mid-corner and exit techniques. Overly competent brakes is just going to make is easier to cook corner entry.

I ran my first Z4 MC HPDE at Horse Thief Mile, which is very hard on brakes, with my stock brakes and pads. I experienced some fade, but nothing dangerous, and I learned to adjust to it. I was very impressed by how much abuse the stock brakes could take. Even with my StopTechs I sometimes run Axxis street pads on tracks that aren't too demanding. Sure, I could brake better with my HT-15s instead, but it's useful sometimes to refocus one's attention on technique. I experienced pad fade for the first time today (as opposed to fluid fade) at Willow (Axxis pads) and learned how to anticipate and adjust to it. And I was still running 1:38s in 114F heat. My buddy with stock brakes and pads was running 1:41s in only his second time at Willow in a Z4 MC.
 
You can concentrate on learning your entry techniques even if you have good brakes. I'm a strong believer in the phrase "it's better to have them and not need them than need them and not have them". As a beginner I suspect he's going to need the back up of good brakes more than someone more experienced. At some point everyone overshoots their braking point and it's always nice to depend on your brakes to get you out of trouble rather than a tyre wall. I have no idea how you've managed to use standard brakes with so little trouble, maybe your not going fast enough. I suppose everyones going to have their own opinion but to me it seems a total waste to be braking early to preserve your standard brakes, you loose so much time when your braking at the end of a straight when everyone else is still accelerating.

If you look at Lele's original plans for suspension improvements he will gain very little if anything from spending a lot of money because he is planning on fitting parts that are very low down the list of bad points on BMW's. He could invest less money on a brilliant set of brakes and gain a lot more.
 
Curtis said:
You can concentrate on learning your entry techniques even if you have good brakes. I'm a strong believer in the phrase "it's better to have them and not need them than need them and not have them". As a beginner I suspect he's going to need the back up of good brakes more than someone more experienced. At some point everyone overshoots their braking point and it's always nice to depend on your brakes to get you out of trouble rather than a tyre wall. I have no idea how you've managed to use standard brakes with so little trouble, maybe your not going fast enough. I suppose everyones going to have their own opinion but to me it seems a total waste to be braking early to preserve your standard brakes, you loose so much time when your braking at the end of a straight when everyone else is still accelerating.

If you look at Lele's original plans for suspension improvements he will gain very little if anything from spending a lot of money because he is planning on fitting parts that are very low down the list of bad points on BMW's. He could invest less money on a brilliant set of brakes and gain a lot more.
-Read any book by any pro driver or engineer and you will discover that you spend considerably less time braking than turning or accelerating. It makes the most sense to increase the car's ability during the sections in which it spends the most time. That will pay off in lower laps times.

Regarding my pace, high 1:30s at Willow in 114F weather overlaps the times of half the BMWCCA IP field - those are race-prepped cars with aero, Hoosiers and (of course) full race brakes. My buddy's 1:41s are pretty quick too - especially for totally stock brakes and essentially stock suspension. I was pacing off a modded 997 GT-3 yesterday and consistently out-braked him, despite his Pagit track pads. Perhaps I was better at conserving my brakes in the heat :idunno:
 
You can only spend less time braking as long as you don't have to start braking half way down the straight. As long as you can stand on the brakes at the last second you can spend more time accelerating up to that point, it just makes sense.

As for outbraking a modded GT-3 on race brakes while you were on standard Z4M brakes. Come on! I've raced GT-3's and I still build them for customers and test, maintain and modify them. Unless it was being driven by my grandad ( who's dead incidently ) it's a physical impossibility.

According to the buildsheet on your website for your car you've gone to a lot of effort to fit a perfectly balanced 4 wheel Stoptech BBK using Hawk HT-14 pads ( full race pads with massive initial bite designed for cars using extreme deceleration rates ). Perhaps this has something to do with your Z4's giant killing abilities?
 
Curtis said:
You can only spend less time braking as long as you don't have to start braking half way down the straight. As long as you can stand on the brakes at the last second you can spend more time accelerating up to that point, it just makes sense.
-Go read some books. Then do the math. You will see that braking is the least critical attribute (vs. cornering grip or acceleration) towards quick lap times. The best use for strong brakes is for late overtaking, which is irrelevant to learning how to drive a car properly.

Curtis said:
As for outbraking a modded GT-3 on race brakes while you were on standard Z4M brakes. Come on! I've raced GT-3's and I still build them for customers and test, maintain and modify them. Unless it was being driven by my grandad ( who's dead incidently ) it's a physical impossibility.
-What happened happened. The driver wasn't Hans Stuck, but he wasn't bad either. Pretty much the same skill level as myself - competent, but certainly no pro. Btw, I said I was using street pads, not stock brakes. Please read my posts a little more carefully. The one using stock brakes was a buddy of mine in another Z4 MC. I brought him up to point out that even with stock brakes the car was still very quick and safe to drive in the heat.

Curtis said:
According to the buildsheet on your website for your car you've gone to a lot of effort to fit a perfectly balanced 4 wheel Stoptech BBK using Hawk HT-14 pads ( full race pads with massive initial bite designed for cars using extreme deceleration rates ). Perhaps this has something to do with your Z4's giant killing abilities?
-I believe that was my point (again, read my posts). Even using street pads, the StopTech 4-wheel BBK offers great precision, balance and cooling - superior to the Brembo setup on the GT3 in this track and temperature. I say superior because we all know that the weight balance of the GT3 makes it dynamically superior under braking to a Z4 MC, if the brakes were apples-to-apples. But bear in mind this example is specific to Willow Springs. At Cal Speedway or Buttonwillow I wouldn't think of braking so hard with street pads. Which brings us back to my original point - braking needs are largely track dependent.

I might also point out that originally I said that the most important track upgrade for the Z4 M would be R-comp tires. Aside from the obvious increases in lateral grip and low-speed acceleration, this mod also noticeably increases braking force. Swapping stock pads for track pads doesn't so much increase stopping distances as it makes the brakes function properly at higher heat thresholds than stock.
 
Firstly I don't need to read books to learn about driving, I race and I build race cars, I know that a perfectly built and setup chassis system has major benifits but we're not talking about anything like that, we're talking about a cheap set of "coilovers" and swaybars. I already have my degree in chassis dynamics and I know what's usefull and what's not. Going back to the original argument fitting a good set of brakes all round will have more benifit than making a half arsed attempt at improving the suspension. If you did a brilliant job on the suspension which takes a lot of time, testing, money and effort you will have better lap time gains than the brakes will give you however Lele is not planning on making this investment, he just want's to spend some money improving his track experience. If you looked at his suspension plans and knew anything about building a track car you would realise that he's wasting his time and money. Not only that he has no plans to do any setup or adjustments to the suspension once he's fitted it which again defeats the purpose of fitting it in the first place, geometry and settings are what makes it work. You can actualy reduce the cars handling abilities if you don't do these things properly. Under these circumstances it's better to go with something you can just bolt on and have instant improvements from.

You've spent most of your time on this thread telling everyone that stock pads are perfectly suitable for track use as long as you don't use them too much, but failed to emphasise the fact that your using street pads in a full aftermarket Stoptech Big Brake Kit and I'm sure you also use braided lines, full race brake fluid, additional cooling etc. Lele does not have any of these things, his brakes are 100% standard. Trying to relate the two is dangerous, I sometimes use street/fast road pads on track too but I also use a BBK. Completely standard discs, calipers' pads' hoses and fluid on a race track is a recipe for disaster unless as discussed earlier the driver brakes extremely early and lightly for each corner but that kind of defeats the purpose of being on a race track. As you say, track pads will allow you to reach higher heat thresholds which basically means you can use them more aggressively before they cook themselves which means you can brake deeper and save lap time. Great! What is wrong with that?

I agree tyres are very important, earlier I said this

"Tyres are however the most important aspect of all. Everything you do is transferred to the road via those tyres. If they are useless then nothing else can work to the best of its ability. With tyres though you have to make a proper job of setting up the geometry and keeping an eye on tyre pressures. If you don't its another complete waste of time and money and you will miss out on all that potential."

Again I refer you to the fact that Lele has no plans at all to do any setup or adjustments to the car neither has he made any provisions to make sure that the original geometry settings ( as terrible as they may be ) are kept in check. The gains will therefore be minimal.

I'm not trying to be awkward here, I'm just trying to help out a guy who's planning to flush a lot of money down the drain. Have a word with Memo, I gave him advise regarding what parts would make the best improvement on track on a limited budget. In the end I sent him £450 worth of parts but most importantly a complete geometry setup for his car. In his words the car was completely transformed and that was backed up with lap times, all that was without a crap set of "coilovers" in sight.

That's the benifit of having read all the books years ago, getting my engineering degrees, building cars and knowing what I'm talking about.
 
Palantirion said:
Blacklines said:
Weak brakes will weaken your performance more than anything else.

Better brakes will improve your lap time more than suspension.
-LOL, WRONG!

For the Z4 M the first thing you want is R-comp tires. After that, you will want suspension and track pads.

First let me say I have watched your car progress with lots of interest - thanks for all the updates and ideas.

Secondly let me say that if a single short lap time is your goal I agree with you - tyres would provide the best instant improvement. However if you want to do more than one lap brakes must come higher up the list. Thats from my own personal experience. I accept it is an unusually long circuit but having driven more than 30,000 miles at the nurburgring in many different cars (and on many different bikes) I have found the standard Z4M brakes to be overwhelmed very quickly.

Palantirion said:
Swapping stock pads for track pads doesn't so much increase stopping distances as it makes the brakes function properly at higher heat thresholds than stock.

I assume you meant reduce? (I only point that out because you were telling people to read your post more carefully!)

Don't know why, but I have a feeling we will meet one day. Looking forward to seeing your car and saying hello.

Cheers

Ben
:thumbsup:
 
Curtis said:
Firstly I don't need to read books to learn about driving, I race and I build race cars, I know that a perfectly built and setup chassis system has major benifits but we're not talking about anything like that, we're talking about a cheap set of "coilovers" and swaybars. I already have my degree in chassis dynamics and I know what's usefull and what's not. Going back to the original argument fitting a good set of brakes all round will have more benifit than making a half arsed attempt at improving the suspension. If you did a brilliant job on the suspension which takes a lot of time, testing, money and effort you will have better lap time gains than the brakes will give you however Lele is not planning on making this investment, he just want's to spend some money improving his track experience. If you looked at his suspension plans and knew anything about building a track car you would realise that he's wasting his time and money. Not only that he has no plans to do any setup or adjustments to the suspension once he's fitted it which again defeats the purpose of fitting it in the first place, geometry and settings are what makes it work. You can actualy reduce the cars handling abilities if you don't do these things properly. Under these circumstances it's better to go with something you can just bolt on and have instant improvements from.

You've spent most of your time on this thread telling everyone that stock pads are perfectly suitable for track use as long as you don't use them too much, but failed to emphasise the fact that your using street pads in a full aftermarket Stoptech Big Brake Kit and I'm sure you also use braided lines, full race brake fluid, additional cooling etc. Lele does not have any of these things, his brakes are 100% standard. Trying to relate the two is dangerous, I sometimes use street/fast road pads on track too but I also use a BBK. Completely standard discs, calipers' pads' hoses and fluid on a race track is a recipe for disaster unless as discussed earlier the driver brakes extremely early and lightly for each corner but that kind of defeats the purpose of being on a race track. As you say, track pads will allow you to reach higher heat thresholds which basically means you can use them more aggressively before they cook themselves which means you can brake deeper and save lap time. Great! What is wrong with that?

I agree tyres are very important, earlier I said this

"Tyres are however the most important aspect of all. Everything you do is transferred to the road via those tyres. If they are useless then nothing else can work to the best of its ability. With tyres though you have to make a proper job of setting up the geometry and keeping an eye on tyre pressures. If you don't its another complete waste of time and money and you will miss out on all that potential."

Again I refer you to the fact that Lele has no plans at all to do any setup or adjustments to the car neither has he made any provisions to make sure that the original geometry settings ( as terrible as they may be ) are kept in check. The gains will therefore be minimal.

I'm not trying to be awkward here, I'm just trying to help out a guy who's planning to flush a lot of money down the drain. Have a word with Memo, I gave him advise regarding what parts would make the best improvement on track on a limited budget. In the end I sent him £450 worth of parts but most importantly a complete geometry setup for his car. In his words the car was completely transformed and that was backed up with lap times, all that was without a crap set of "coilovers" in sight.

That's the benifit of having read all the books years ago, getting my engineering degrees, building cars and knowing what I'm talking about.
-I think we're having a problem getting into too many tangents to the original comments. You posted "Weak brakes will weaken your performance more than anything else.", which is complete rubbish. On any circuit you spend more time in turns and accelerating than you do braking. Therefore improvements in braking will effect only a small portion of your overall lap times. Also, "Better brakes will improve your lap time more than suspension.", which may be true for some unusual cars, but not the Z4 MC. From my own testing, switching to R-comp tires and good suspension increased my speed in the corners so much that in just Turn 2 at Willow I dropped more time than I dropped in all braking zones combined by switching to from stock brakes to StopTechs+race pads. It's really very simple math.

Regarding my setup vs. stock, I clearly stated in my previous posts that I was using street pads on a StopTech BBK. I don't use any special race fluid, and I have no ducting other than cutting out the little BMW restrictor. I also clearly stated that my friend was using a totally stock brake system in 114F weather and was able to not only travel the circuit safely, but also quite quickly. He learned a lot about driving and car control, and that IS the goal here. We're not racing.

Blacklines said:
First let me say I have watched your car progress with lots of interest - thanks for all the updates and ideas.

Secondly let me say that if a single short lap time is your goal I agree with you - tyres would provide the best instant improvement. However if you want to do more than one lap brakes must come higher up the list. Thats from my own personal experience. I accept it is an unusually long circuit but having driven more than 30,000 miles at the nurburgring in many different cars (and on many different bikes) I have found the standard Z4M brakes to be overwhelmed very quickly.
-You have a point, but consider this. If you are driving hard enough as a beginner (a big IF) to overheat your brakes, then you are going to be harder on the tires than the brakes. You use the tires for a good 75% of the time on a track like Willow, from braking to the end of track-out on every turn. You use the brakes only about 5% of the time on that same track. I would certainly choose tires first, as the benefit extends over a longer period of time, but also because once you start cooking stock tires you aren't going to be braking well no matter what pads you have.

Blacklines said:
Palantirion said:
Swapping stock pads for track pads doesn't so much increase stopping distances as it makes the brakes function properly at higher heat thresholds than stock.

I assume you meant reduce? (I only point that out because you were telling people to read your post more carefully!)

Don't know why, but I have a feeling we will meet one day. Looking forward to seeing your car and saying hello.

Cheers

Ben
:thumbsup:
-LOL, good catch. Yes, I did indeed mean "reduce".
 
Palantirion said:
-You have a point, but consider this. If you are driving hard enough as a beginner (a big IF) to overheat your brakes, then you are going to be harder on the tires than the brakes. You use the tires for a good 75% of the time on a track like Willow, from braking to the end of track-out on every turn. You use the brakes only about 5% of the time on that same track. I would certainly choose tires first, as the benefit extends over a longer period of time, but also because once you start cooking stock tires you aren't going to be braking well no matter what pads you have.

Blacklines said:
Palantirion said:
Swapping stock pads for track pads doesn't so much increase stopping distances as it makes the brakes function properly at higher heat thresholds than stock.
-LOL, good catch. Yes, I did indeed mean "reduce".

Well I guess to some extent we agree - single short circuit lap - you will achieve a better lap time with with a standard car fitted with decent tyres over one with upgraded brakes.

However:

Are tyres on their own an upgrade? For some people maybe. But I think of tyres like petrol.
Will the average driver be doing more than one lap? Yes - very many more and they will cook the brakes. So all the tyres in the world are wasted.
What if your circuit length is a bit longer than the limp wristed (Laguna Seca apart) N. American circuits you are used to driving?


Cheers

Ben
:)
 
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