Why do road 'accidents' happen?

[original guvnor]

Sorry but I class ROSPA in the same category as BRAKE so I'd take anything they say with a large pinch of salt.

The only reason a car without headlights on stands out in a procession of other cars with them on is because your eyes are adjusting to the difference. The same would be true if one car with headlights on was in a procession of 10 cars without them.

I reckon it could even be dangerous - more people driving on full beam inadvertently, more potential to be dazzled etc. In the past vehicles with headlights on in daylight hours (assuming conditions normal) alerted you to the fact there was something different - for example a motorbike or a police/fire/ambulance. If we're all driving around with them on that becomes harder to do as well.

Frankly if you can't spot another vehicle in broad daylight, or just don't look properly because you are too busy not concentrating, and have an accident because of it, you shouldn't be in possession of a licence full-stop.

 

[paulgs1000]

Sorry but I class ROSPA in the same category as BRAKE so I'd take anything they say with a large pinch of salt.

The only reason a car without headlights on stands out in a procession of other cars with them on is because your eyes are adjusting to the difference. The same would be true if one car with headlights on was in a procession of 10 cars without them.

I reckon it could even be dangerous - more people driving on full beam inadvertently, more potential to be dazzled etc. In the past vehicles with headlights on in daylight hours (assuming conditions normal) alerted you to the fact there was something different - for example a motorbike or a police/fire/ambulance. If we're all driving around with them on that becomes harder to do as well.

Frankly if you can't spot another vehicle in broad daylight, or just don't look properly because you are too busy not concentrating, and have an accident because of it, you shouldn't be in possession of a licence full-stop.

Have you read my earlier posting on the physical reasons whey people do not see other road users?

You have not made reference to them in your argument - do you not feel them relevant?

 

[original guvnor]

Paul I hadn't done but I've just read them and actually I think they support the argument I was making in a way. I think if all vehicles have headlights on it will make it harder to distinguish bikers for example. They used to stand out because they had their (single) headlight on, making it easier for car users to identify them as such and act accordingly.

I just think us all having headlights on all of the time will make sod all difference to accidents and actually as i said above, may cause more accidents. How many times have you had to flash someone coming in the opposite direction at night because they have their full beam on for example?

 

[paulgs1000]

Training alongside an understanding of how accidents can occur will cut down the accident rate. Admittedly there will always be 'human' reasons why accidents occur but anything which can help to cut down the odds of accidents should be considered alongside an awareness of why vehicles can be missed even when people look - hence my posting which I'm concerned no one his commented upon - is the significance not 'seen' (sic). Seems to me that the training to look at three target areas of a potential danger area might be a way for some to avoid 'missing' a potential hazard. Headlights will draw the attention and might be a point at which the eye focusses when scanning - is this not likely to be the case rather than a vehicle unlit - night or day?

 

[exdos]

What are your recommendations for the lighting arrangements for horses and riders, cyclists, and pedestrians on country roads in the daytime?

IMO, most drivers are distracted whilst driving by ICE, SatNav, mobile phones and passengers and use a bad driving position/technique (one hand on steering wheel) and drive as if they are elephants in a circus, simply following the car in front so they are not performing any visual road scanning. Then there's loads of folk who just have bad eyesight which is uncorrected, so they are in a permanent fog and consequently have a limited view of everything. On top of this, many drivers have very limited car control so spend all their brain power on having to concentrate on how to actually make their cars move, so have little mental reserve capacity to think about observation, anticipation and roadcraft to keep themselves and everyone else safe. I could go on...

 

[Bing]

What are your recommendations for the lighting arrangements for horses and riders, cyclists, and pedestrians on country roads in the daytime?

IMO, most drivers are distracted whilst driving by ICE, SatNav, mobile phones and passengers and use a bad driving position/technique (one hand on steering wheel) and drive as if they are elephants in a circus, simply following the car in front so they are not performing any visual road scanning. Then there's loads of folk who just have bad eyesight which is uncorrected, so they are in a permanent fog and consequently have a limited view of everything. On top of this, many drivers have very limited car control so spend all their brain power on having to concentrate on how to actually make their cars move, so have little mental reserve capacity to think about observation, anticipation and roadcraft to keep themselves and everyone else safe. I could go on...

Cut ally couldn't have said it better myself

 

[indizee]

What are your recommendations for the lighting arrangements for horses and riders, cyclists, and pedestrians on country roads in the daytime?

IMO, most drivers are distracted whilst driving by ICE, SatNav, mobile phones and passengers and use a bad driving position/technique (one hand on steering wheel) and drive as if they are elephants in a circus, simply following the car in front so they are not performing any visual road scanning. Then there's loads of folk who just have bad eyesight which is uncorrected, so they are in a permanent fog and consequently have a limited view of everything. On top of this, many drivers have very limited car control so spend all their brain power on having to concentrate on how to actually make their cars move, so have little mental reserve capacity to think about observation, anticipation and roadcraft to keep themselves and everyone else safe. I could go on...

I do drive with my lights on all the time, as they are auto off. Its so easy not to spot a vehicle in the distance when they can blend into the scenery, black in the shade, greens with a tree background etc.

I also ride motorbikes with headlights on all the time, and hi-vis jacket. im not bothered that i cant show off my nice Dainese leathers to the full or if I get odd glances from other bikers because I wear Hi-vis(on a Ducati). So many riders like to look black on their non-lit bikes.........good luck with that.

I see so many bad driving habits, everything from exdos' list to people marking the school report on the steering wheel. A lot is down to bad and aggressive driving techniques, and drivers driving beyond their limits. A lot of drivers forget that they may be good drivers, the person next to you may not be. Everybody thinks they are a good driver, but it takes a lesson in life to realise that you are immortal. I used to drive the weekend warrior way, forever over the limit. Fortunately I grew up and now Im a Sunday driver...everywhere. I find that 70 on cruise gets me there much less stressed and only 5 minutes behind someone who has risked it all getting to that very same set of light/traffic queue.
Then there are people who cause accidents because they are not following the rules. A 30mph limit is a limit for a reason. I see every single day, 75% of drivers doing 40 or more in 30. Humans have forgotten that vehicles are a means of transport and not for personal racing. If you cant organise your life to get somewhere on time...........take a guess.

Sit back, relax and enjoy your driving.

 

[Zed Five]

Just my two-penneth.

As someone who drives high miles and is a biker too, my view is that too many people are 'in the now' rather than seeing 5-20 seconds ahead. All too often i'm behind a car that either 'should be moving across now', 'should be thinking about indicating , now, now ,now, ok there it is' or 'shouldn't need to brake'.

How many people do you see drive up to a roundabout and come to a halt, THEN look? - it's more than you'd think. a-n-t-I-c-I-p-a-t-e.

- oh yes, add in phones/children in car etc etc. generally treating driving the vehicle as 2nd or 3rd on the list of things to do. :?

 

[teamemmenracing]

accidents ................

On the lights thing ..... just look around Europe and you will see that lights on actually produces results, cant argue with that ......

On legislation, If anything had to be changed I would target speed limits .......and penalties. 70 mph is antiquated, less than 3% of accidents happen on motorways, even countries as congested as Holland have raised limits to 80 plus ...... But 60 mph on blind country roads, you have to be kidding ...... that's mental,

In my opinion, most accidents happen because drivers are not paying attention, and by that I mean not concentrating 100% on driving and what's going on around them ....... try day dreaming about what the bird in the office will be doing right now when you are zipping around the country side on a motorcycle for example ...... doesn't work.

I have my lights on all the time ..... I'd rather piss off yahoo's than be a statistic

 

[mcbeee]

accidents ................

On the lights thing ..... just look around Europe and you will see that lights on actually produces results, cant argue with that ......


On legislation, If anything had to be changed I would target speed limits .......and penalties. 70 mph is antiquated, less than 3% of accidents happen on motorways, even countries as congested as Holland have raised limits to 80 plus ...... But 60 mph on blind country roads, you have to be kidding ...... that's mental,

In my opinion, most accidents happen because drivers are not paying attention, and by that I mean not concentrating 100% on driving and what's going on around them ....... try day dreaming about what the bird in the office will be doing right now when you are zipping around the country side on a motorcycle for example ...... doesn't work.

I have my lights on all the time ..... I'd rather piss off yahoo's than be a statistic

Me too , lights on all the time,

Speed limits.... our roads are mostly wide straight lines, the speeds drop due to surface (gravel), local area (houses, businesses) and shoulder or not. Makes sense most of the time. A few years back in Montana there was no speed limit in most places outside urban areas. The actual limit was "Reasonable and Prudent". Doing 100mph on the freeway would get you a warning, in my experience most were doing 80-85mph. The problem was they kept killing off the old farmers who didn't adapt to the high speeds of the others. They would pull out onto the road the same way they had been doing it for 40 years and putt along at 45 or so and get creamed by a car doing 85. Little windy roads should NOT be high speed....there's too many crosses on the side of the road and we don't need more.

 

[ab7]

Always have my lights on in the zed, ever since the first few weeks of driving it where a few people in vans etc. cut me up on dual carriageways - presumably not seeing me due to the low height of the car?

I agree with the lights on thing but I'd argue the vast majority of accidents come down to human error/ stupidity (often the result of distraction/ lack of attention) which happens everyday but most people get away with it (including me).

 

[AndyBeech]

accidents ................

On the lights thing ..... just look around Europe and you will see that lights on actually produces results, cant argue with that ......

On legislation, If anything had to be changed I would target speed limits .......and penalties. 70 mph is antiquated, less than 3% of accidents happen on motorways, even countries as congested as Holland have raised limits to 80 plus ...... But 60 mph on blind country roads, you have to be kidding ...... that's mental,

Trouble is, and the argument against putting the motorway speed limit up (one of the main reasons actually), is that most people already go around 80mph on motorways anyway, and if your prudent and aware you'll most likely avoid any trouble from the police doing that. You put the speed limit up to 80mph and people will start going up to 90mph without worrying too much and with the standard of driving these days that is too fast IMHO, a lot of drivers just don't have the awareness around them to go at those speeds and that's where the problems start.

Country roads are generally given national speed limits but as with all speed limits it doesn't mean you actually have to go that fast, its just the way country roads can vary in their open straight bits to the bendy sharp bits

 

[Wa'ya]

With regards to not being seen I'm with Geezar (being an ex motorcyclist - everyone should learn to use the road on a m/bike - would make most of them a better driver).

Two interesting points regarding not being seen -

There is the blind spot in the centre of the retina where the optic nerve is attached - this can 'hide' a relatively small outline of an approaching motorcycle if a driver just checks once - hence 'think once think twice think bike'.

Then there's an article in the most recent IAMs magazine where a fighter pilot explains that when we scan a road (or the sky) we do not see everything as we move across a view - we actually pause and take in a detail and a focussed view at certain points as we scan - then move to another point - the movement period is actually blurred. During the movement of the eye nothing is focussed upon (the brain deals with this whilst putting together a smoother 'view'). Hence when someone says they did not see you it might actually be the case.
Fighter pilots are trained to scan with this in mind and the article recommended that drivers should train themselves to not just look into a road but to consciously look at three points , near middle and distant to avoid missing detail which lies within the area which is not actually 'seen' (ie a pushbike car or fast approaching m/bike). Takes some effort but soon becomes a normal part of your observation.

If you want to check out whether we do see when we move our eyes - look into a mirror and look at first one eye and then the other - try to spot your eyes moving - you will not see your eyes move as you do this. . .

These are some interesting quotes I wasn't aware of, and I also agree most accidents happen due to people being distracted for what ever reason. Often I have said everyone should be required to have motorcycle experience, and learn to drive/ride like your invisible. Being a biker myself I tend to look ahead 2-3 cars when in traffic, watch for cars who are waiting at intersections, and maneuver so that I can be seen when approaching the intersection while in a line of traffic.

While I'm sure the running of headlights during the daytime does help to some degree yet way too often the first comment you hear in a motorcycle/car accident is "I didn't see him".

 

[slick]

If 30% of road accidents are caused by excess alcohol and 50% caused by excess speed........surely that means 50% are caused by driving too slow and 70% caused by being sober......therefor drive faster and drink more

 

[Anonymous]

In my opinion a large amount of the very serious accidents we have on our roads, where people are killed or maimed comes down to extreme negligence by one of the parties:

1. Wreckless / dangerous driving (fuckwits)
2. Driving under the influence of alcohol / drugs (fuckwits)
3. Driving whilst phoning / texting / emailing / facebooking / titting about on an electronic device / other distraction (fuckwits).

I would say the above are underlying factors in the majority of very serious UK road accidents.

In April 2013 I was hit head on by a fuckwit on the A68 in Northumberland.

The Police report concluded that the fuckwit was on my side of the road because he was taking the "racing line" through the bend. This bend was blind and there was a blind summit on the apex. I was doing 60MPH and he was doing 80MPH +.

My headlights were on.

 

[Geezah]

I guess a poll would be interesting, Lights on or lights off? But I still don't know how to set one up! Anyone? :roll:

 

[Wa'ya]

Has anyone seen the daytime strobing motorcycle headlights? A few Bikes here in the US have them and they do grab your attention when you see them on the road.

 

[Stark]

I have a new 3 series loan car and I am sure there is no way to turn the lights off, in any position. I have triple checked and there is still a small light on, in whatever position I turn the light switch

 

[mcbeee]

Has anyone seen the daytime strobing motorcycle headlights? A few Bikes here in the US have them and they do grab your attention when you see them on the road.

Aargh! they drive me crazy, they are too distracting .....
I feel the same way about " Loud Pipes Save Lives", can't stand them they just piss every one off and cause road rage... put the top down and follow a bike with loud pipes for five or ten or fifty miles and you'll know what I mean.

 

[mad4slalom]

+1 on the above, all of us have made silly mistakes / had moments of inattention and mostly gotten away with it.

who else thinks that non dizzy looks like a young peneope keith !!!