When is it going to get better Brexiteers ?

mr wilks said:
Always be winners & losers :wink: the vote needed to be made & no surprise that there would be a period of instability in order to steady the ship before cracking on
We're a island nation & capable of adapting
I didn't vote either way as being out or in left me firmly planted right down the middle so for every plus there was a minus :?

I'd agree with all of that except the part that says the vote needed to be made.
IMO that should never have happened, a result of weak leadership and a self serving idea that really backfired. The concept of asking the public to vote on such a complex and fundamental issue was foolhardy to say the least.
 
TomK said:
mr wilks said:
Always be winners & losers :wink: the vote needed to be made & no surprise that there would be a period of instability in order to steady the ship before cracking on
We're a island nation & capable of adapting
I didn't vote either way as being out or in left me firmly planted right down the middle so for every plus there was a minus :?

I'd agree with all of that except the part that says the vote needed to be made.
IMO that should never have happened, a result of weak leadership and a self serving idea that really backfired. The concept of asking the public to vote on such a complex and fundamental issue was foolhardy to say the least.

Hear hear! Got to agree with the right honorable gentleman on that. :D
 
TomK said:
I'd agree with all of that except the part that says the vote needed to be made.
IMO that should never have happened, a result of weak leadership and a self serving idea that really backfired. The concept of asking the public to vote on such a complex and fundamental issue was foolhardy to say the least.

The vote was a concession by the Conservatives to elements in the party (to reduce the UKIP effect) and was made in the Conservative's last election manifesto. In one way it was good to see a party fulfil and electoral promise for once!

Regarding the OP question - we will be in a period of uncertainty for at least 2 years until all agreements are finalised -we're not even in Brexit yet, not until March next year when article 50 is enacted. In a few years time, talking heads will still speculate over whether we would be better in or out. At least it's keeping that industry busy :)
 
markeg said:
The vote was a concession by the Conservatives to elements in the party (to reduce the UKIP effect) and was made in the Conservative's last election manifesto. In one way it was good to see a party fulfil and electoral promise for once!

True. It's just a shame that we had to get to that point.
 
TomK said:
markeg said:
The vote was a concession by the Conservatives to elements in the party (to reduce the UKIP effect) and was made in the Conservative's last election manifesto. In one way it was good to see a party fulfil and electoral promise for once!

True. It's just a shame that we had to get to that point.

It wasn't the concept of the vote that was wrong (imo ) it was the reality that many who voted saw it as a vote for or against immigration whilst totally disregarding the bigger picture
 
Unfortunately the "talking heads" industry doesn't pay the taxes needs to pay pensions, public servants etc. We need business to do that. To have business we need markets and workers else we will have an even more inward looking economy which can only build debt.

I totally agree that it was a weak, foolhardy and self serving tactic to go to the polls regarding this issue although it could be argued it is democracy in action but the vote turned into a demonstration of spin / lies rather than a structured debate with both sides giving a fair representation of their opinion.
 
Another one here who has benefited from the leave vote as the pound crash has meant my earnings have gone up a fair amount (I earn a large amount of my income in UAE Dirhams which is pegged to USD). Even knowing that fact now, I still wish we had stayed in... But then I'm a Londoner so perhaps that not surprising. Even with a brexit task force I still cant see how two years of negotiation will leave the UK in a better state than it was in the EU. I may be better off personally right now, but as a nation I worry for our future.

I think the worst thing to come out of the process has been to show just how divided we are as a nation on not just one but multiple issues. Whilst the idea has now been scrapped, the governments proposal that firms need to list their foreign workers was for me a sign that right wing politics have become dangerously in the centre. Some might see it as an extreme example, but in September 1941, Jews in Germany were legally required to wear a yellow badge with a 6 pointed star identifying them as Jewish in public at all times. Not only on their clothing, but even on the houses where they lived. Identification and segregation is how hate begins.

I for one will not even play the card of all those who voted to leave being racist as I dont think that is by any means true. Furthermore I do recognise that there are some valid reasons for leaving including payments to EU and the control of fishing waters for example. However, I do think the entire process hugely emboldend those who were closet racists and felt/now feel to express those sentiments (sometimes even with violence) is entirely acceptable...which it obviously isnt.
 
AlfaScozzesi said:
...the vote turned into a demonstration of spin / lies rather than a structured debate with both sides giving a fair representation of their opinion...
Just like a General Election then... :whistle:
 
PerryGunn said:
AlfaScozzesi said:
...the vote turned into a demonstration of spin / lies rather than a structured debate with both sides giving a fair representation of their opinion...
Just like a General Election then... :whistle:

Agreed but very dispiriting.

Anyhow better get back to getting beat at the football :o
 
mr wilks said:
TomK said:
markeg said:
The vote was a concession by the Conservatives to elements in the party (to reduce the UKIP effect) and was made in the Conservative's last election manifesto. In one way it was good to see a party fulfil and electoral promise for once!

True. It's just a shame that we had to get to that point.

It wasn't the concept of the vote that was wrong (imo ) it was the reality that many who voted saw it as a vote for or against immigration whilst totally disregarding the bigger picture

But exactly. Asking the general public (dm readers etc..) to see the bigger picture and the real points of the referendum was imo never going to happen. Whatever the result the outcome would not have been decided by the correct reasons. But hey, this is politics! :whistle:
 
faz_b said:
Another one here who has benefited from the leave vote as the pound crash has meant my earnings have gone up a fair amount (I earn a large amount of my income in UAE Dirhams which is pegged to USD). Even knowing that fact now, I still wish we had stayed in... But then I'm a Londoner so perhaps that not surprising. Even with a brexit task force I still cant see how two years of negotiation will leave the UK in a better state than it was in the EU. I may be better off personally right now, but as a nation I worry for our future.

I think the worst thing to come out of the process has been to show just how divided we are as a nation on not just one but multiple issues. Whilst the idea has now been scrapped, the governments proposal that firms need to list their foreign workers was for me a sign that right wing politics have become dangerously in the centre. Some might see it as an extreme example, but in September 1941, Jews in Germany were legally required to wear a yellow badge with a 6 pointed star identifying them as Jewish in public at all times. Not only on their clothing, but even on the houses where they lived. Identification and segregation is how hate begins.

I for one will not even play the card of all those who voted to leave being racist as I dont think that is by any means true. Furthermore I do recognise that there are some valid reasons for leaving including payments to EU and the control of fishing waters for example. However, I do think the entire process hugely emboldend those who were closet racists and felt/now feel to express those sentiments (sometimes even with violence) is entirely acceptable...which it obviously isnt.

:happyclap: :thumbsup:
 
TomK said:
mr wilks said:
TomK said:
True. It's just a shame that we had to get to that point.

It wasn't the concept of the vote that was wrong (imo ) it was the reality that many who voted saw it as a vote for or against immigration whilst totally disregarding the bigger picture

But exactly. Asking the general public (dm readers etc..) to see the bigger picture and the real points of the referendum was imo never going to happen. Whatever the result the outcome would not have been decided by the correct reasons. But hey, this is politics! :whistle:

Afraid I disagree TomK - many voted on what was their big issue; for some, the bigger picture was uncontrolled immigration. Boston, for example, had one of the highest out votes, and the main reason was the level of immigration in the town. But, of course, this view was labelled as being racist - it was more a chance for the local population to declare enough, as there are so many social issues in the area now. Jobs, housing, increased crime - Boston is now the murder capital of the UK. Grimsby wanted greater control over fishing, and the allocations which appeared to favour other European nations. Other areas of Lincolnshire were concerned over farming issues and quotas from Europe - surprising as many benefitted from the subsidies. Down in the south-west, despite the subsidies there to Cornish industries, there was a trend towards the out vote. Correct or otherwise outside of London people perceive European funds as benefitting the well-off, and ex-Labour leaders and wives becoming multi-millionaires on the gravy train doesn't help the image.

It was a badly run campaign on both sides - whoever thought that two old Etonians promoting project fear was going to persuade people - it was a campaign based on lecturing and talking down to people. Just seems to be the trend nowadays that politics are based on negativity rather that promoting what is positive. At least we're not Americans though - I though we had a bad set of choices for Leader!
 
markeg said:
TomK said:
mr wilks said:
It wasn't the concept of the vote that was wrong (imo ) it was the reality that many who voted saw it as a vote for or against immigration whilst totally disregarding the bigger picture

But exactly. Asking the general public (dm readers etc..) to see the bigger picture and the real points of the referendum was imo never going to happen. Whatever the result the outcome would not have been decided by the correct reasons. But hey, this is politics! :whistle:

Afraid I disagree TomK - many voted on what was their big issue; for some, the bigger picture was uncontrolled immigration. Boston, for example, had one of the highest out votes, and the main reason was the level of immigration in the town. But, of course, this view was labelled as being racist - it was more a chance for the local population to declare enough, as there are so many social issues in the area now. Jobs, housing, increased crime - Boston is now the murder capital of the UK. Grimsby wanted greater control over fishing, and the allocations which appeared to favour other European nations. Other areas of Lincolnshire were concerned over farming issues and quotas from Europe - surprising as many benefitted from the subsidies. Down in the south-west, despite the subsidies there to Cornish industries, there was a trend towards the out vote. Correct or otherwise outside of London people perceive European funds as benefitting the well-off, and ex-Labour leaders and wives becoming multi-millionaires on the gravy train doesn't help the image.

It was a badly run campaign on both sides - whoever thought that two old Etonians promoting project fear was going to persuade people - it was a campaign based on lecturing and talking down to people. Just seems to be the trend nowadays that politics are based on negativity rather that promoting what is positive. At least we're not Americans though - I though we had a bad set of choices for Leader!

You can't say "promoting project fear" (which I agree with, incidentally) after earlier saying "Boston is now the murder capital of the UK"! :lol:

That was one of the most notorious misrepresentations of stats of the whole campaign. Three murders in a year in a place with a tiny population. The year before it had zero - zero divided by any population count is a murder rate of zero, aka "the safest place in the UK, 2014"! Even the City of London, which barely has any inhabitants, was in the top 5 most "murderous" places last year due to a single murder.
 
MrPT said:
markeg said:
.... Jobs, housing, increased crime - Boston is now the murder capital of the UK.

You can't say "promoting project fear" (which I agree with, incidentally) after earlier saying "Boston is now the murder capital of the UK"! :lol:

That was one of the most notorious misrepresentations of stats of the whole campaign. Three murders in a year in a place with a tiny population. The year before it had zero - zero divided by any population count is a murder rate of zero, aka "the safest place in the UK, 2014"! Even the City of London, which barely has any inhabitants, was in the top 5 most "murderous" places last year due to a single murder.

Well, it was a reference to the Independent article link, but yes, I should have said England and Wales, rather than UK. And have you been to Boston? It really is a problem town now, with very high crime rates. Regarding the zero stat, I would be interested in seeing where that comes from, as I am pretty sure there have been a number in 2014 also - unless they were all classed as "accidental" ...
 
markeg said:
MrPT said:
markeg said:
.... Jobs, housing, increased crime - Boston is now the murder capital of the UK.

You can't say "promoting project fear" (which I agree with, incidentally) after earlier saying "Boston is now the murder capital of the UK"! :lol:

That was one of the most notorious misrepresentations of stats of the whole campaign. Three murders in a year in a place with a tiny population. The year before it had zero - zero divided by any population count is a murder rate of zero, aka "the safest place in the UK, 2014"! Even the City of London, which barely has any inhabitants, was in the top 5 most "murderous" places last year due to a single murder.

Well, it was a reference to the Independent article link, but yes, I should have said England and Wales, rather than UK. And have you been to Boston? It really is a problem town now, with very high crime rates. Regarding the zero stat, I would be interested in seeing where that comes from, as I am pretty sure there have been a number in 2014 also - unless they were all classed as "accidental" ...

Here. Anyway - that's beside the point. The point is that we are continually having extreme opinions programmed into us by the media and we have to work very hard to make sure we end up with something resembling a balanced viewpoint. This was almost impossible during the Brexit vote (and the last general election), hence the rather gloomy mood in which most decent people went to vote.
 
MrPT said:
markeg said:
MrPT said:
You can't say "promoting project fear" (which I agree with, incidentally) after earlier saying "Boston is now the murder capital of the UK"! :lol:

That was one of the most notorious misrepresentations of stats of the whole campaign. Three murders in a year in a place with a tiny population. The year before it had zero - zero divided by any population count is a murder rate of zero, aka "the safest place in the UK, 2014"! Even the City of London, which barely has any inhabitants, was in the top 5 most "murderous" places last year due to a single murder.

Well, it was a reference to the Independent article link, but yes, I should have said England and Wales, rather than UK. And have you been to Boston? It really is a problem town now, with very high crime rates. Regarding the zero stat, I would be interested in seeing where that comes from, as I am pretty sure there have been a number in 2014 also - unless they were all classed as "accidental" ...

Here. Anyway - that's beside the point. The point is that we are continually having extreme opinions programmed into us by the media and we have to work very hard to make sure we end up with something resembling a balanced viewpoint. This was almost impossible during the Brexit vote (and the last general election), hence the rather gloomy mood in which most decent people went to vote.

Interesting stat - worse possible reading though that the perpetrators in 2015 were from the Baltic states - IIRC the victims were also East European. The Independent article came out in January, so was pre-Brexit, and was closely followed by this one which should have sounded alarm bells in Westminster, but didn't. The feeling hasn't changed though - while many are worried about Brexit (like OP), Bostonians still feel that Brexit is the best for them and their town. It's not just a media issue, it is also down to the Government (and I don't just mean the party in power but all elected officials) positioning - for example, the London Mayor talking about a plan for London only exacerbates the feeling of "us and them". It's a mess and will be for a couple of years, but we won't move on until everyone accepts the position, and works positively for the future.
 
For me the EU referendum displayed a few key messages. The most obvious one being that the "metropolitan elite" residing in London and other big cities are totally out of touch with the rest of the U.K. London has done very well out of globalisation and the EU. It's hardly surprising people felt like they wanted to stay. Where I live, in north Notts, we have done very poorly out of the EU and globalisation. All of our mines are shut, we have a relatively unskilled labour force, a lack of government or EU investment in improving infrastructure whilst watching billions spent on Crossrail (London) and HS2 (all about shipping people into London in greater numbers). At the same time the growth in migrants locally has been very noticeable, putting strains on schools, hospitals etc. Every time you mention that one of the liberal elite shouts you down as either a "racist" "Luddite" "daily mail reader" etc. Someone has even used one of those phrases on here. That's why 71% of my constituency voted out. You'll find no regrets up here. If you redid the referendum the out vote would be larger.

Anyone who is making a serious judgment about the impact of Brexit based on a temporary fall in sterling needs to have a good, hard look at themselves. The merits (or otherwise) of this decision won't be known for 10 years at least. A lot of the talk about what terms Article 50 will be on is just posturing. I'm sure an amicable settlement that suits both sides will be the eventual outcome. After all it's in everyone's interests to stay on friendly terms.

In my opinion, Brexit is a positive step. I think the European project will fail, I think the notion that we can't be a successful nation without hanging onto the EU's coat tails is nonsense. What it has hopefully rammed home (and this is something the PM seems to have cottoned on to) is that this country needs to be governed for all of its people, not just a select few in the City of London who've had their snouts in the trough for far too long. The whole economy of the country needs to rebalanced away from an over-reliance on the South East, spreading wealth more evenly.

As for those who say we shouldn't entrust the British electorate with a decision like this - you are the problem. It's that attitude that lost this vote. We trusted the British public to make the right call when it came to going into the EU back in the seventies, and for the time, it was the right decision. Therefore we have to trust the Bristish public when they call time on the EU. They don't normally get it wrong - they vote for what the times need.
 
Whatever happens if the value of the pound doesn't stabilise or keeps dropping then I can't wait to be paying more for everything that's imported.

Tim.
 
TitanTim said:
Whatever happens if the value of the pound doesn't stabilise or keeps dropping then I can't wait to be paying more for everything that's imported.

Tim.
Just buy things that come from outside Europe :D
 
original guvnor said:
For me the EU referendum displayed a few key messages. The most obvious one being that the "metropolitan elite" residing in London and other big cities are totally out of touch with the rest of the U.K. London has done very well out of globalisation and the EU. It's hardly surprising people felt like they wanted to stay. Where I live, in north Notts, we have done very poorly out of the EU and globalisation. All of our mines are shut, we have a relatively unskilled labour force, a lack of government or EU investment in improving infrastructure whilst watching billions spent on Crossrail (London) and HS2 (all about shipping people into London in greater numbers). At the same time the growth in migrants locally has been very noticeable, putting strains on schools, hospitals etc. Every time you mention that one of the liberal elite shouts you down as either a "racist" "Luddite" "daily mail reader" etc. Someone has even used one of those phrases on here. That's why 71% of my constituency voted out. You'll find no regrets up here. If you redid the referendum the out vote would be larger.

Anyone who is making a serious judgment about the impact of Brexit based on a temporary fall in sterling needs to have a good, hard look at themselves. The merits (or otherwise) of this decision won't be known for 10 years at least. A lot of the talk about what terms Article 50 will be on is just posturing. I'm sure an amicable settlement that suits both sides will be the eventual outcome. After all it's in everyone's interests to stay on friendly terms.

In my opinion, Brexit is a positive step. I think the European project will fail, I think the notion that we can't be a successful nation without hanging onto the EU's coat tails is nonsense. What it has hopefully rammed home (and this is something the PM seems to have cottoned on to) is that this country needs to be governed for all of its people, not just a select few in the City of London who've had their snouts in the trough for far too long. The whole economy of the country needs to rebalanced away from an over-reliance on the South East, spreading wealth more evenly.

As for those who say we shouldn't entrust the British electorate with a decision like this - you are the problem. It's that attitude that lost this vote. We trusted the British public to make the right call when it came to going into the EU back in the seventies, and for the time, it was the right decision. Therefore we have to trust the Bristish public when they call time on the EU. They don't normally get it wrong - they vote for what the times need.

I understand and in many elements agree with your philosophy, however I don't think Brexit will have any long term impact on the economic centre of the UK, being SE focussed, spreading wealth, etc. Nor sadly do I really believe the end result after all the negotiations will we actually reduce migration as we'll end up conceding to continue to trade with Europe and frankly many industries rely on it to survive. Of course most of what is discussed is speculation as we just don't know as the negotiations have over 2 years to go from now and real end game is 10, 20 or more years down the road.

Not referencing your or any specific posts, but what does concern me and going back to OP's question is that ironically the short term impact will be far, far worse than is currently recognised with good news a long way off and for the less well off a really significant issue and I don't mean a year or so:

The pound is much lower and will stay low making everything more expensive from holidays to food to petrol to cars and on an on and not slightly, but really big hikes which hit the less well off so much harder
We're finally seeing some hints of sense in oil markets production, so prices will soon rise (10% in the next year seems average) and they are of course $ priced so multiply up.
Our interest rates will drop or stay the same, just as other economies such as the US move to an increase later this year making Sterling weaker still
There will be more quantitive easing, in effect further reducing our wealth
Every time a Euro country makes an anti UK comment or the UK government talk tough we'll take another battering and I could continue to add indicators...

Sure there may be some investment on a cheap £ and we may export more, but the guy in the street isn't going to benefit from it, seeing just a massive cost of living rise and soon inflation. People are not tolerant so I see significant issues on the horizon

Am I personally worried - no not really. I can absorb increased costs (and I'd venture to say most Z4 owners can or we'd not be driving such cars). My business is mainly in Europe and in Euros and the sterling slump has made me some very significant personal on paper profit already. The stock rise has added nicely to that. This chaos has positioned me so I could just about retire while in my 50's, so something of an unexpected but pleasant 'win'

Will we make a success of it? I'm sure and am really behind hoping we do, but I doubt the British public will have the patience to weather it for years on end.

It'll be more than a bumpy decade or so to come...
 
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