What would you do?

I guess my point here is that if you insisted, as the OP did, that the car had one previous "owner", then the V5 is irrelevant (legally) as it does not record owners. Therefore any comeback based on the V5 is tentative at best.

You can have many more owners than keepers and often do when car are being passed through dealers. You can also have many more keepers than owners, for example a company car with one owner (the company or leasing firm) could pass through several employees during it lifespan all of who should be registered as keepers.
Although in practice this doesn't normally happen.

The v5 is simply not a record of ownership and should not be viewed as such. In fact there is as far as know there is no legal requirement to record the legal owners of cars only keepers. The v5 itself is not even proof of ownership and is only likely to be taken as such in absence of any other conflicting documentation.
 
when you buy a car, you go based on the number on the V5 so people's arguments regarding its actual ownership number is invalid.

like already mentioned, when a dealer takes a part ex they don't go on the V5, the next owner does.

New > part ex > new owner = 1 previous owner + current owner not 2 previous + current.

dealership is at fault in my opinion.


.... If I went into a dealership asking for a car with 1 previous owner max then I'd expect to become the 2nd owner of the car... the courts would see it the same way. (I'm not suggesting OP should go to court, im just saying how it would be)
 
nightyard said:
when you buy a car, you go based on the number on the V5 so people's arguments regarding its actual ownership number is invalid.

like already mentioned, when a dealer takes a part ex they don't go on the V5, the next owner does.

New > part ex > new owner = 1 previous owner + current owner not 2 previous + current.

dealership is at fault in my opinion.


.... If I went into a dealership asking for a car with 1 previous owner max then I'd expect to become the 2nd owner of the car... the courts would see it the same way. (I'm not suggesting OP should go to court, im just saying how it would be)
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I agree completly with what you are trying to say. But courts and lawyers are funny people for wanting things to be correct. If you went to court to try and claim you ask the dealer for "one previous owner" but the V5 says "2 previous keepers" you wouldn't get anywhere as the V5 cannot be used of proof of previous owners as it is not a record of ownership. In fact the V5 specifically states that it is not a record of ownership.

What you mean to say I think, is that if you went to a dealership asking for a car with 1 previous owner max then you would expect to become the 2nd registered keeper of the car.

If you think this through you cannot realistically be only the second "owner" of the car unless the original owner is also the dealer selling you the car. However, you could be technically be the 2nd owner and the V5 could say there are multiple previous keepers.
 
Not to sure I'd be very upset. As the way it looks. The V5 can be interpreted in several ways. (Gotta love those ambiguous government forms.) So it would seem that there is no clear cut 100% conclusion per the V5 that the dealer intended to cheat you. At least that is what I would imagine a court MIGHT conclude. But who knows for sure. I probably wouldn't be bothered to raise my blood pressure over it. But you are making the payment not me. I just think if one gets to wrapped up in the minutia of details. One may loose sight of the big picture. I.E. Is the car healthy? Service records? Does it look clean and dent free? If so. Then is there really an issue?

In the US. The price guides have no penalty nor reward for the number of owners. It's valuation goes by mileage according to year and options along with regional dealer sales history for that model of car. A car can be easier to sell if it's a one owner and has the service history. But having one owner is still no guarantee that a car has been looked after. Hell, My 2006 3.0si car was wrecked just after the first owner bought it. I bought it from the second owner whom had no idea about the accident. It was 4 years old when I bought it with 16,000 miles on it. I did a vin search and found the accident info. Then called the company that fixed it. They have a lifetime warranty on said repairs. It has been trouble free, The suspension geometry has stayed true. No rattles. Even after putting 25,000 more fast German miles on it.
 
Shappers said:
bhavin85 said:
A few comments here that suggest 1 previous owner would infact mean 2 people on the log book...not sure how that could be the case ?

This might be my incorrect understanding, so feel free to correct me if I am wrong....but I would expect that a car with 1 previous owner(i.e. the party to which a car has been registered) to state just that on the V5, the car therefore has 1 previous owner.

If the car had been registered to a dealership (as a demo car) first, then to a private individual - second, the car has been registered to 2 seperate parties...this making the car 2 previous owners.

Not sure where I am going wrong...feel free to let me know :thumbsup:
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It depends when you see the V5 as to what the numbers of owners says.

For example I bought my Yaris from a lady who owned it from new. Therefore the V5 said 0 previous keepers when we exchanged paper work. When the V5 from the DVLA was returned it now says 1 previous keeper. When I advertise the car, it would be advertised as 1 previous keeper (as thats what the V5 says), however its 1 previous keeper + the current keeper (ie me) Meaning when the V5 comes back it will say 2 previous owners. This is pretty standard practice, and anyone reviewing the V5 would be able to work that out.

It is possible that the Garage checked the V5, and it said 1 previous keeper; and they took their information from that.
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If you advertise it as one previous keeper you would be lying, it's two, you have to count yoursel :rofl:
 
The only time you may have a problem buying a pre registered car from any source,irrespective of mileage,is you have purchased second hand goods. If you were to total loss the car in the first year the insurance company will adjust accordingly. In this case,a copy of the original sales invoice to the 2nd keeper will show the number off miles. If its true delivery miles and not into the hundreds it's trully a dealer Pre reg.
 
Getting lost in this thread now, its doing my head in.

Just re-read the original post.

Basically, the OP was saying to the dealer, that he wanted to be the 2nd owner of the car. When he got the documentation, he finds out he is actually the 3rd owner.

Owner/Registered keeper, previous owners, previous owners + current etc confuse the situation, and whilst legally the argument could probably be put in such a way to support either case, to me, I would say that asking for a car with a maximum of 1 previous owner would mean, to most people, that you are the 2nd person it will be registered to.

As the car, whilst at the dealer waiting to be re-sold, doesn't get registered to the dealer, then for the purpose of this context, they don't count as an owner (although obviously they own the car as stock). Previous owners surely means either private individuals, or a company (i.e. a dealership owned it as a demo/loan car, or a company owned it as a company car).

Had the OP said "I only want a car where I am the 2nd owner" then surely there could be no confusion (again, ignoring the wording of owner/registered keeper), and in my view, although he used different "words", I think he actually did say the same thing.

I'm gonna stop now, cos I think I understand it in my little brain, but the more I type I'm just making it more complicated!
 
I can't agree with that. He probably wanted to say that,but in fact said he wanted one with no more than one previous owner,

"Prior to me signing on the dotted line I asked BMW to check the number of previous owners the car had, I made it very clear that I would not buy a car with more then 1 previous owner. It was, as they called it a "deal breaker"."

Therefore he has,at time of purchase,bought a car with one previous owner. I know he wanted a car that only had one owner from new,it's just that it has it seems,quite legitimatly,been lost in translation.
Unfortunate,but hopefully the dealer will sort it out.
 
Tonybz said:
I can't agree with that. He probably wanted to say that,but in fact said he wanted one with no more than one previous owner,

"Prior to me signing on the dotted line I asked BMW to check the number of previous owners the car had, I made it very clear that I would not buy a car with more then 1 previous owner. It was, as they called it a "deal breaker"."

Therefore he has,at time of purchase,bought a car with one previous owner. I know he wanted a car that only had one owner from new,it's just that it has it seems,quite legitimatly,been lost in translation.
Unfortunate,but hopefully the dealer will sort it out.
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EXACTLY!!!! The op wanted a car with 1 previous owner TO HIM, so that he would be the 2nd owner, but due to the way the request was worded, is where the confusion may have arisen.

I still reckon any reasonable person would interpret "I made it very clear that I would not buy a car with more then 1 previous owner" as meaning that he would be the 2nd owner, as he is talking about the cars history when he gets it, i.e. "yes its my new car, but it had 1 owner before me".

That's how I see it anyway. According to the paperwork, when he signed on the dotted line, the form might have said "current owners details...joe blogs", number of former keepers=1, so yes, technically, saying "I want 1 previous owner", the salesman could look at the paperwork, see the figure 1 in the box and think that's what this car has, but that (to me) is wrong, cos as that point, the car is on its 2nd owner, and technically, as soon as he signs the paperwork, its on its 3rd owner.

So technically, he may have got what he technically asked for, but what I am saying is, that I think he meant something else. I'd also say the salesman agrees with the OP, cos when he phoned the salesman, he too was surprised.
 
Oh my god, this thread!

It's easy to start slipping into legalities of how to decipher what the information on the V5 actually means and 'owners' vs 'keepers' but its simple.
Either the salesman deliberately 'misunderstood' what the OP was asking him OR he genuinely misunderstood. The OP is never going to get to the bottom of that one so that can be debated til the cows come home.

Luckily for the OP the dealership doesn't seem to be prepared to argue the keepers/owners/demo car/whatever and they have straight away agreed with him over what the sale criteria actually was.

Because the OP can never prove they intended to deceive he now has two choices, either take it back or accept compensation in the form of money, goods or services.
I should think the dealership will come up with something of lesser value than they are prepared to go to in the end so I would push for more when compensation offer is made.

If you love the car then keep it. Don't cut your nose off to spite your face.
If the one owner thing is set in stone for you and you're not bothered about that particular car, then take it back.

Good luck either way.
 
Exactly my point too. It's all far too ambigous, the OP asked about owners, the V5 doesn't record owners, we all know what he meant including the dealer but basically there is little comeback to the dealer unless there is some other paperwork or contract. I suspect there is a right to return under the sales of goods act as car is not as described, but can this be proved?

As others have said, if the car is fine and you are happy with it, ask the dealer for a discount or some free servicing or something and move on. Only other options is to pay for the report that tells you the previous keepers details you could ask the dealer to pay for that, or contact the previous keeper and find out about the original keeper and millage when they purchased the car. If the car was simply a pre reg with delivery miles then it's as good as one owner and you can relax. However if it was a 6 month old demo car with a couple of thousand miles on it when pervious keeper purchased it then I'd be tempted to argue some more with the dealer or return the car. Did you get the one owner thing in writting, or get it put down on any requirements documents?
 
Push for a free set of winter wheels...there's about £1600 right there!
 
An additional years warranty and a years free servicing should easily be achievable.

Bear in mind that a hire car has only one previous keeper, and you really wouldn't want one of them!
 
i think some of the best legal brains in the country would have a grand time and earn loads of money arguing over this one, and true you can see both arguments, But i wouldnt put money on which way it would go, sounds like one for judge judy, . going back to the compensation culture I mentiond earlier, look how many posts regarding this are demanding this and threatening that ! I really dont think there was any intention to deceive the purchaser, I still think it does'nt really matter very much if the car is right condition wise, surely we should think the best of people until they prove otherwise. if the purchaser cant live with this car then he is right , maybe he should buy a brand new Unregistered car then he will be
happy but what will that cost, another few thousand pound for sure which will then depreciate and he will be back to square one to prove a point.
I would be more inclined to put it to the back of my mind , move on and enjoy the car. ps Not patronising just how I see it :thumbsup:
 
Apart from not complying with the specific requirement for only one previous owner I am unclear what problem the OP envisages with two previous owners. Is it a resale value issue or something else? If it has been a demo car then there may be some angst as to how it was treated/driven during this period. There again how was it treated/driven by the first 'private' owner? If it was just pre-registered by the first dealer and sold on with delivery mileage then what's the real problem?
So to the question of what would I do? Well if it is in really good nick, has full service history and drives well I wouldn't do anything TBH. If the dealer is persuaded to throw some goodwill gesture into the mix then all well and good but I wouldn't 'cut my nose off to spite my face' over this.
 
Thanks for all the comments boys and girls...turned into a fairly interesting read.

The dealer has agreed to find a replacement car, for the same spec...so the search is on....good to see BMW pulling their finger out and actually doing something on this balls up
 
Ummm. nothing is written down then you really dont have a leg to stand on. your word against his.

Its pants but the law.

Good thing they are looking for a similar specification car which unless its younger and less miles you wont be happy with either.

number of keepers has never been an issue to me especially if its bmw in the first instance, not many zds are sold so a lot of main dealer pre reg stock so they have them for 6 months to rotate stock and move 2nd hand stock into the market. When a new owner would have it for 1 to 3 years, so could easily have 2 for a 18 month old car when infact its one.

Now I have a similar story, Audi TT main dealer 2 owners and asked if it had been involved in any accidents or repair, ohh no they said, only to find out later it had a damaged under side and half the car resprayed and alloys messed with and door miss aligned. I contacted the last owner to find out what had happend which was the car hitting a wall. After 1 month of them trying to fix the shoddy paint job and make good and 3 months of hell around the issue they gave me a full refund as they could not find me a similar stock car, as the 225 had been pulled.

I was lucky as I asked for the 140 point check (as part of the sales pitch on audi approved used cars) which they could not find at the time so I had this request put on the sales document. What transpired was that one dealer took in the car as px but simply sent it to another dealer who did not check it. So they could not produce one or they could not fabricate it after. My local audi dealer got involved as insisted by audi uk but they refused to officially comment as it was very obvious to the traied eye what had been done.

So before you purchase always ask to see any records and checks on the car. Most bmw history is available to be seen if bmw have completed the works and they will have the pre sales work as well which is worth looking at or getting a copy.

Now I would get the service inclusive as a start and get them to put the bmw protect on its not going to cost them a lot.
 
My 1st Z4 had a leak that they couldn't fix, so after a fight they replaced it. Leaky one was put on sale and they were telling people it had a minor leak which they fixed on the 1st attempt! That was a blatant lie!

Dealers can be underhand lieing scum!
 
Tonybz said:
I can't agree with that. He probably wanted to say that,but in fact said he wanted one with no more than one previous owner,

"Prior to me signing on the dotted line I asked BMW to check the number of previous owners the car had, I made it very clear that I would not buy a car with more then 1 previous owner. It was, as they called it a "deal breaker"."

Therefore he has,at time of purchase,bought a car with one previous owner. I know he wanted a car that only had one owner from new,it's just that it has it seems,quite legitimatly,been lost in translation.
Unfortunate,but hopefully the dealer will sort it out.
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What a thread :D

I have to say I agree with this, it all comes down to the OP's understanding of "previous." Anyway at least BMW are sorting it out, although if you otherwise like the car then it could be that in swapping it for something else you might encounter a different issue.
 
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