What if citizens (US) couldn't protect themselves?

I guess my point is this...(If I lived in the USA)

Would I prefer to have a hand gun to protect my family?
.... Yes, I recon I would.

Do I think I should be able to buy one just by going to the store?
...GOD no... That's nuts?!

You may ask why?... but my answer is if my sole purpose is to protect myself and my family I will make sure I am fully trained on how to use the weapon and all the responsibilites that go with it.

Have I any sympathy for a thief entering someones home and getting shot 20 times in the head... HELL NO! Make it 21 and have one from me... I just think in the US (no offense) there seems to be a whole lot of "whoop whoop, holla holla, I have a gun... 2nd amendment..etc..etc..." when some of these people are the least responsible people to posess a firearm.

I do like the ability to be able to defend oneself, but how many people in the US "think" they can just by owning a gun? The criminal has probably shot half a dozen people in his life, the average gun owning victim has probably never fired it in anger... I fully support the victim, don't get me wrong, but I do think that full training should be mandatory... after all, if you are not willing to do that, should you REALLY own a gun?
 
20ducks said:
Let me remind you that I lived in England for a number of years. Not as a member of the US military, just as a regular everyday bloke making a living, raising a family etc. In those years since then, the gun laws in the UK have become even more stringent and yet weapon related crime increased. So what is the deterrent? Video cameras? That is all good for catching someone, but does little to help prevent weapon related crimes. Besides all that, remember your culture and the US culture is different. Our Constitution ensures our freedom to protect ourselves. And that, I believe, is where the real difference is.

Ours is getting better... it's far to late for me to research my sources here (nearly 1am), but there has been some new legislation just passed, or coming up that does allow for us to protect ourselves more. Ok, so it doesnt allow for guns, but if you kick the s**t out of a guy in your house and "accidentally" go too far then we are a little more protected.

That said... if you do that, I'd say odd's on you'll experience some follow-up.... worth it?... maybe... maybe not....
 
yeah your constitution might say that, I just reckon it's wrong where guns are concerned .. you can't hide from your own gun crime related statistics, can you?

I'm not saying you can't defend yourself far from it, it's an issue of degree.
 
The gun laws are variable in the US. Here in NC, you can protect yourself, but you can't use deadly force to protect property. I have a CCW permit and have handled guns since before I went to grade school. I learned they are not a toy. I also learned that you hit what you're aiming at and if some punk comes into my house uninvited in the middle of the night, there will be ONE side to the story. Mine.
 
The biggest problem we have in the area where I live in regards to gun laws is that we have a huge influx of Central/South American gangs coming in for the drug trade. MS-13, Bloods, Crips, here in sunny Santa Cruz, we have them all. They're not coming in from 1st world countries. They will bring all the weapons in that they need. The still kill people that interrupt their tagging let alone the police that try and raid the marijuana gardens.

How do you get rid of the illegal guns? The criminals that have them won't turn them in. Police forces are underfunded and short handed, so they're not of much help.

I've been trained to shoot everything that I can legally own. I was never able to purchase any of my firearms without a background check. When I was taking reserve police officer training, I outshot my instructor. I like target shooting, and while i've hunted, it's not something that I need to do. I did clean what I killed though.
 
In every area in the US, that has passed liberal "Concealed Carry Laws" the crime rate has dropped by an average of 25% to 40%. This is not just an idle boast. These are facts from the FBI, accumulated over the last 20 years.
All of the chicken little's that proclaimed that shooting's would sky rocket, and we would become like the old wild west, the exact opposite has happened. The wild west did not come about and shooting deaths have been steadily decreasing. In fact, crime in the US had been decreasing for the last 25 years...
Everyone remembers the 'Assault Weapon Ban"? Congress allowed the ban to expire without renewal. It did nothing. It was just window dressing...

In 90% of those areas that now have concealed carry laws, it is required to go through some form of approved hand gun safety course.

Here in VA, you are required to go through a 12 hour NRA or approved equivalent safety course. And when you apply for your permit to carry 'concealed', you get fingerprinted and a background check is performed.
It is a federal law here in the US that does not allow any person from owning a handgun if you have any type of domestic violence conviction on your record. This even applies to Police and Military Personnel...

When I was in the military, we had some problems where some of our sailors could not stand security watches with a weapon because of this...

As a small arms instructor in the Navy (and now still), and every instructor I know, teaches that drawing your weapon is the LAST resort, and ONLY if you intend to kill the person. It is NOT to scare or threaten or show off....
If you really do have to pull your weapon, you better kill the son-of-a-bitch...dead men tell no tails....

ALL MOST EVERYTHING YOU SEE IN THE MOVIES ABOUT FIREARMS IS WRONG OR EMBELLISHED TO THE POINT OF ABSURDITY.......

There are approx. 1000 to 2000 citizens for every ONE police officer. The police cannot be everywhere.....

Criminals will ALWAYS be able to get firearms.. This is a fact... Even in countries where they are outlawed.


It is ALWAYS better to be judged by Twelve, than carried by Six.....
 
neilisdead said:
yeah your constitution might say that, I just reckon it's wrong where guns are concerned .. you can't hide from your own gun crime related statistics, can you?


No we can't. But let's say stricter gun control laws are enacted here in the states. The criminals won't follow those laws either. This is the problem. IMHO there seem to be some, dare I say "cultural" elements to this problem. I grew up just 40 miles from where I live now, but in a different country (Canada). Things were VERY different. I believe my last year living in Canada, there was only one gun related murder in my city (committed by an American) while there were hundreds in our American border city. A Canadian criminal would only need to drive five or ten miles and easily obtain a gun.

I don't own a gun but also don't have a problem with the availability of guns to law abiding citizens. These are not generally the people committing the crimes, and this is what our constitution protects.
 
Statistics and causes Year 2000

The definitive source for US injury death statistics is the Centers For Disease Control National Center for Injury Prevention & Control website which provides statistics on all deaths by injury, not just gun deaths. To get the number of gun deaths for a year just set the Cause of Injury to Firearm. If you only want to know the number of child gun deaths per year then choose the custom age range and input 0 years ( <1 ) as the lowest age and 17 years as the top age. Be sure to select "No Age-Adjusting Requested" if you are only interested in a particular age group.

Note that the CDC child gun death figures are typically half of the figures that the gun control lobby publishes. The difference is in the definition of a child. The gun control lobby counts young adults that are 18 or 19 years old as children, but they do not count 20 year olds as children. You can choose from one of two possible reasons, depending on your level of cynicism: 1. The standard CDC age groups used to go from 0-19, 20-39, etc and the gun control lobby couldn't figure out how to select a custom age group. 2. Counting 18 and 19 year olds as children doubles the number of so-called child gun deaths, and more child gun deaths means more support for gun control.

In 1999 there were 1776 gun deaths in the 0 through 17 age group and 3385 gun deaths in the 0 through 19 age group. By subtraction we find that there were a whopping 1609 gun deaths in just the 18 through 19 age group. Historically the 18 through 24 age group is the highest crime-committing group. At age 18 part-time drug dealers leave school and become full-time drug dealers. Despite the propaganda from the gun control lobby, criminals in general and drug dealers in particular are the group of so-called children most likely to be shot by their fellow criminals. You can verify this by reading the local gun death news stories in any city newspaper. School shootings are so rare that every one gets national television coverage, but drug dealers are shot so often that they are barely mentioned in their local newspaper.

Older people's gun deaths are most likely to be suicides. Suicides typically make up 56.5% of all gun deaths according to the Bureau Of Justice Statistics. In fact, drugs and suicides account for more than 2 out of every 3 gun deaths in the USA.

The best way to prevent gun deaths is to treat depression and other mental illness, teach children not to sell or use illegal drugs, treat drug addiction, and have police concentrate on enforcing drug laws. However, the gun control lobby says that we should spend billions of dollars on gun registration and gun licensing instead of using the money to treat depression and combat drugs.

The accidental gun death rate has been falling since 1930 and US accidental gun deaths per year were down to 824 by 1999 according to the CDC. Note that it is extremely easy to prevent accidental gun deaths
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In 2005 (the most recent year for which data is available), there were 30,694 gun deaths in the U.S:

* 12,352 homicides (40% of all U.S gun deaths),
* 17,002 suicides (55% of all U.S gun deaths),
* 789 unintentional shootings, 330 from legal intervention and 221 from undetermined intent (5% of all U.S gun deaths combined). Wild West Syndrome I guess..... :roll:

Suicide is still the leading cause of firearm death in the U.S., representing 55% of total 2005 gun deaths nationwide. In 2005, the U.S. firearm suicide total was 17,002, a 1.5% INCREASE from 2004 suicide deaths. Most suicides in the U.S. are committed with firearms.

-Numbers obtained from CDC National Center for Health Statistics mortality report online, 2008.

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Another Fact:

Overall, 42,636 people died in car crashes in the U.S. in 2003.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
The non-story of 2006 was also the non-story of 2005. It is a non-story every year going back decades.

Yet the number of people who die in car crashes in North America is staggering, even if it is absent from the agenda of most public officials and largely ignored by the public.
When all is said and done and the ball begins to drop on New Year's Eve, 44,000 people, give or take several hundred, will have died in auto accidents in the United States this year.

In Canada, about 2,500 die in road fatalities.

For perspective, consider that:

# At the 2006 casualty rate of 800 soldiers a year, the United States would have to be in Iraq for more than 50 years to equal just one year of automobile deaths back home.
# In any five-year period, the total number of traffic deaths in the United States equals or exceeds the number of people who died in the horrific South Asian tsunami in December 2004.

U.S. traffic deaths amount to the equivalent of two tsunamis every 10 years.

# The National Safety Council says your chance of dying in an auto crash is one in 84 over your lifetime. But your chances of winning the Mega Millions lottery are just one in 175 million.
# If you laid out side by side 8-by-10 photos of all those killed in crashes this year, the pictures would stretch more than eight kilometres.
# If you made a yearbook containing the photos of those killed this year, putting 12 photos on each page, it would have 3,500 pages.

If you limited your traffic-death yearbook to a mere 400 pages, you'd either have to squeeze more than 100 photos onto each page or issue an eight-volume set.

Automobile deaths are the leading cause of death for children, for teenagers and, in fact, for all people from age 3 to 33.
 
Doctors:

* The number of physicians in the U.S. is 700,000
* Accidental deaths caused by Physicians per year are 120,000
* Accidental deaths per physician is 0.171

Statistics courtesy of U.S. Dept of Health Human Services.


Guns:

* The number of gun owners in the U.S. is 80,000,000
* The number of accidental gun deaths per year, all age groups, is 1,500
* The number of accidental deaths per gun owner is .000188.

Statistics courtesy of F.B.I.

Statistically, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners.

Remember, "Guns don't kill people, doctors do."

FACT: Not everyone has a gun, but almost everyone has at least one doctor.

Please alert your friends to this alarming threat immediately. We must ban doctors before this gets completely out of hand!

Note: Out of concern for the public at large, the statistics on lawyers have been withheld for fear the shock would cause people to panic and seek medical attention.

:wink:
 
This is kind of long, so those of you with attention disorders had better go back to sleep, or better yet browse the Internet for more silly jokes. :poke:

I have many guns. I like to build guns, well at least stock rifles. I taught all my children and will teach all my grandchildren to safely shoot. I used to hunt and some of my best boyhood memories are of my father and me hunting. We never hunted just for the fun of it but as we were very poor, we needed the food. Here in my part of the country hunting and fishing is a big deal. It is one of the many reasons we live here. I doubt that folks in East LA have guns to hunt. Well at least not hunt animals for food.

The culture of our country is much different with the right of our citizens to bare arms for defense. There are a lot of opinions as to how that should be interpreted but so far our Supreme Court has held that we are within our rights to bare arms. I don’t know if that is in any law in the constitutions of other countries. To remove it from our constitution would take an amendment and that is not going to happen. When ever the government has tried to pass laws or in other ways asked citizens to voluntarily give up or register their guns, only honest people have done so, and the crooks have done business as usual.

It is shameful that so many people choose to use a gun to salve a problem. Recently the city of Portland commissioned a study to determine why people choose to use a gun in the commission of a crime. The fact that they can be acquired so easily on the streets was one of the reasons, but as a side benefit they found that marriage appeared to be the biggest reason for using a gun. Obviously if we outlawed marriage the use of a gun would go down.

We have had many strong arm robberies in affluent neighborhoods especially against senior people. A meeting was called and the police were asked for advice and they gave the normal stuff about setting up neighborhood watches etc. They of course did not advise having guns for defense. But they did say if we are going to have guns to get a shotgun. You can not miss in your living room. So I do believe that if it is a well know fact to crooks that the citizens are very likely to be able to defend themselves, this type of attacks will go down. I find having a big mean dogs work well too.

BUT BUT BUT…… I have asked this question of many of my NRA friends. I know we are against banning assault rifles, but where do we draw the line? I know folks who have bazookas for heavens sake. Where does it all stop? What is not OK? If nothing is off limits I want my own atomic bomb. Why pussy foot around? :D :lol:
 
I don't see a need for an assault rifle, but I have no real problem with a semi-automatic carbine type rifle with a high capacity magazine. My Mini-14 was a great rifle for coyote eradication in brushy areas where something like my Weatherby Mk V was both overkill and too awkward.

Neither of those would really be what i'd consider home protection though, if I need a long arm, then it might not really be self defense unless the guy 4 houses down has decided to engage me from his living room.

I too grew up on a diet of wild game as my father's job just didn't make all the ends meet. He was able with a shotgun, fishing rod, and bow to keep the family fed for a minimal outlay in ammunition or bait.

And my wife and I are both NRA life members.
 
There is a culture of over protecting the criminal over here, with as a result that their crimes are both more and more violent as well as increasing.

The violent frequent corner shop attacks would go down for sure if the shop owner had a gun. You see CCTV footage of attacks which are so vicious, and the victim only has a chair or so to defend themselves, as if they use a bat, they are the ones that end up in court.

If my office burglar alarm goes off, I have to check it out first before the police would come as I am the first to receive the call from the monitoring company. I can only take certain sprays with me, lets call it hairspray :wink: , to defend myself if needed. Would I prefer to have a gun? Sure I would. Would I use it? Sure I would, if I see a knife wielding yob coming at me I will shoot him in the legs without thinking about that. However, living in the UK, I would be prosecuted for loss of income for the "victim", sexual therapie sessions (I kid you not) and of course, I would be convicted and sent to prison.

I sure would like to see licensed gun ownership in the UK as at least you could create an environment of safety for your family which the UK police fails to provide.
 
:thumbsup:
pvr said:
There is a culture of over protecting the criminal over here, with as a result that their crimes are both more and more violent as well as increasing.

The violent frequent corner shop attacks would go down for sure if the shop owner had a gun. You see CCTV footage of attacks which are so vicious, and the victim only has a chair or so to defend themselves, as if they use a bat, they are the ones that end up in court.

If my office burglar alarm goes off, I have to check it out first before the police would come as I am the first to receive the call from the monitoring company. I can only take certain sprays with me, lets call it hairspray :wink: , to defend myself if needed. Would I prefer to have a gun? Sure I would. Would I use it? Sure I would, if I see a knife wielding yob coming at me I will shoot him in the legs without thinking about that. However, living in the UK, I would be prosecuted for loss of income for the "victim", sexual therapie sessions (I kid you not) and of course, I would be convicted and sent to prison.

I sure would like to see licensed gun ownership in the UK as at least you could create an environment of safety for your family which the UK police fails to provide.


PVR, thanks for the insight. I find your observations similar to what I have read about gun control across the pond.
 
I must admit though, after being in the UK for 4 solid years I had to return home for my Father's funeral. As many of you know, going through customs, immigration etc at O'Hare Airport is a unique experience especially if you are an ex-patriot. In one area there was a Chicago cop just standing around doing what some cops do. BUT, what I was experiencing wasn't from a Chicagoan's eyes anymore, it was from a British perspective: what I saw was a tall, big guy in uniform with a very large .38 revolver in a holster on his belt. It startled me to think that here I am back in the US where we NEED this type of protection. I was back in the cowboys/Indians or cops/robbers mentality. I thought about this a lot when I returned to my UK village sanctuary. Back in my village we had a part time constable. When our house was built, I asked about where certain facilities etc were. I thought for a moment, what if there was trouble with a neighbor or whatever, who do I call? Do I call this constable? He doesn't carry a gun, what the hell is he going to use as a weapon, halitosis? Like I wrote before, these are 2 different cultures as rabman pointed out in his analogy.
 
A personal anecdote:


2003. Brother-in-law and husband's nephew are up from Charleston, SC. I go to town to pick up pizza. Arrive back home. I live in an older, very quiet neighborhood-not much traffic. We back into our driveway. On this particular night, I see the faint glow of oncoming headlights from around the slight curve just beyond my driveway. I pull over to the right so that my wheels are off the road and stop to wait so I can pull past my driveway and back in. The speed limit is 35 mph. One car comes by and almost sideswipes me. The second comes straight for me-no slowing down, no swerving to miss. Remember, my tires are OFF the road on the right. The drunk hits me head on and pushes me backwards almost 50 feet-my foot solidly on the brake. Airbag deploys and I'm a bit stunned. Hubby, BIL, nephew come running up the driveway to find the drunk attempting to exit his car with a very large hunting knife. BIL, shall we say, convinces the drunk to sit in the car until the cops come.

Now, if this had happened on the road into town or some other dark road and I had been by myself. What do you think would have happened if I did not have my firearm? Would I have shot him? Damn straight-if he had come to my door with knife drawn, there would have been no doubt. Guy had a long history of DWI and had three hunting knives in the car.


Remember, England is roughly the size of ONE of our states.
 
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