Waxing - The Emperor's New Clothes?

[Z4M-2006]

Polishing doesn't remove clearcoat..

 

[StevenH72]

Polishing doesn't remove clearcoat..

What does it remove then?

 

[stevo///m3]

I think it does remove clearcoat - just in tiny increments (depending on hardness of pad, type of machine etc). You are lowering (taking the tope edge off) the overall thickness of the clearcoat so that the difference between the top of the unharmed clearcoat and the bottom of the scratches are either the same level or close enough to be filled with a filler product. I have to report some serious disappointment with my filler - Poorboys Black Hole. I just don't think it works very well (or maybe I'm doing something seriously wrong - but how can you do it wrong? - I apply it with a MF applicator pad, leave it for a bit and wipe it back off...?). In my epic detail last year (linked the thread a few days ago - took half a week off work etc) the car came out looking amazing. But only amazing from 3+ foot away; if you got in really close and got the sun to the right angle, you could still seem mega swirls - and that after three coats of polish, two fillers, two sealants and a wax. That polishing was with Hexlogic pads and a DA and I've acquired the Megs MF pads now, along with the recommended MF cutting polish, so will be looking for a serious improvement at some stage this year. I didn't get their finishing product because I'm hoping I'll have what's needed in my existing stock - which is Megs 105 and 205 and Ultimate compound and some SRP - should be able to finish with 105 or SRP I think.

When I used the Black Hole filler I was really disappointed, it did roughly the square route of f*ck all to the finish. Made virtually no difference, at least up close. The sealant seems a million times more effective. After I'd sealed, twice, I then applied a high carnuba wax. I didn't find the wax to bring great benefits either. Sure, it smells nice but it just attracts extra insects towards the car!! Mine is not the most trained eye but I'd still report minimal change by applying wax - whereas the sealant made a very noticeable difference.

Stevo

 

[AnttiO]

I think there that correction you described had some kind of failed if you see swirls when you look it close. You have to see that DA polisher is very limited for its correction power.

You need rotary polisher, lot coarser compound which have more cutting power. For example meguairs 105 and orange hexlogic.
Black paintwork is really difficult to do properly that you clean all swirls, and dont have holograms when finished.

Another option is powerful DA machine with microfibre cutting pad, for example Autobrite direct DA21. Second step will be microfibre finishing and finishing compound.

I have done one black B7 A4 audi, it was really difficult and need over 28hours to make it perfect and be sure there is no holograms.
For example Lambwool pad -> Blue or green hexlogic -> black hexlogic finishing. This is try and error learning job..

 

[Zero4]

DA's / rotary etc do indeed remove clear coat ( or paint if its a single stage ) by microns. modern cars have less and less paint and more clear coat ( I guess due to cost ) there is only so many Microns you can take off before you are left with none, takes a lot to do that but If you held a rotary on the panel for too long, it will burn through, hence the DA was born, to reduce / remove that risk for weekend amateurs and professionals working on rare paint and expensive cars.

I use a rotary for spot work and now a DA21 for most of the car. A car with corrected paint will shine regardless. Wax/sealant adds protection and in some cases ( or at least I've found ) can add a glow to the paint. More "shiny" no, but definitely a glow. On silver I use #645 collonite x2 coats and a coat of R888 which I;ve always found to warm the refections up a tad and almost give a wet look.

Its always going to be in the prep though.

My steps for a major cut/polish are:

Rinse
Iron out
Foam
Wash with Dish soap to strip wax
rinse
clay
rinse
dry
Compound :machine DA21 with Microfibre cutting pad with Menzerna compound med cut
Polish: machine DA21 with finishing pad & Menerna final finish
Once swirl fee I put 2 coats #845 and a coat of R888
Sometimes add PB glaze before #845 but it doesn't really need it I think.

 

[Msb]

Corrected paint shouldn't need glaze or filler products, As for wax adding or altering finish it most definatley does, as said above not more shine but it usually adds glow and depth, or if its not a great wax like Collis 476 it can mute finish, flake pop and shine so depending on your cars paint colour and if its a metallic or pearlescent finish choice of lsp can be quite a crucial factor in determining what the end result actually looks like

 

[StevenH72]

Corrected paint shouldn't need glaze or filler products, As for wax adding or altering finish it most definatley does, as said above not more shine but it usually adds glow and depth, or if its not a great wax like Collis 476 it can mute finish, flake pop and shine so depending on your cars paint colour and if its a metallic or pearlescent finish choice of lsp can be quite a crucial factor in determining what the end result actually looks like

How exactly does a wax make metallic fleck pop? I'm sorry but I really can't help but think claims like this (and I understand that a lot of manufacturer claims are marketing buzz), when reiterated by customers really are just placebo reactions to having a nice deeply clean car.

This is the only photo (albeit a still from an Ammo NYC vid), that I have seen that shows (very clearly) the benefit of having perfectly corrected paint. The swirls really take the life away from the paint, however, the water (acting as a glaze / filler) shows the paint in all its glory.



Even towards the edge of the photo, away from the direct light, there is no fleck "pop", it's the 'flawless' paintwork and direct light that makes fleck pop.

 

[Zero4]

I would usually be totally with you on that and I'll always state corrected paint makes the shine... BUT... on my VX220 Silver, which was corrected fully with literally zero swirls and looked great, I got almost another jump in "glow" using R888 wax. many layers of it though, I'm talking 5-8 layers applied. It just looked really wet and warm in its reflection. not shinier just "better" and definitely wasn't a placebo.

I'm stand firmly in the camp that says wax is just for protection but some combinations of brand / paint / application can help give a "look" all in my experience though

 

[StevenH72]

I would usually be totally with you on that and I'll always state corrected paint makes the shine... BUT... on my VX220 Silver, which was corrected fully with literally zero swirls and looked great, I got almost another jump in "glow" using R888 wax. many layers of it though, I'm talking 5-8 layers applied. It just looked really wet and warm in its reflection. not shinier just "better" and definitely wasn't a placebo.

I'm stand firmly in the camp that says wax is just for protection but some combinations of brand / paint / application can help give a "look" all in my experience though

That's interesting, where abouts are you based I'd love to see the actual effects. I'm always willing to be converted

I'll bring a couple of bacon sarnies. :driving:

 

[Zero4]

I'm in the North East but the vx220 was about 9 years ago now but do plan on taking that route with the Z so I'll let you know if it has a good look. I'll be applying a couple coats on #845 insulator wax for protection ( which I find to be easy up there with sealants but its a wax ) and then a couple of R888's on top. Hoping for the same glow.

I, like you do like to watch the AmmoNYC stuff, as well as the Drive clean stuff he does. Larry often talks about his wax adding that "pop" but then he would... its his product. I do find a good carnauba does add a little. jeffs werkstatt is also supposed to be one of those ( sprays ) that enhance the pop.

Lots of people quote "junkman2000" on youtube about wax but it makes me think if it does absolutely zero then why add it after sealant? why not just add another layer of sealant? it seems pointless adding a layer of wax if it does nothing at all yet he still does.

Again though, without prep, it means didly squat

 

[Msb]

Corrected paint shouldn't need glaze or filler products, As for wax adding or altering finish it most definatley does, as said above not more shine but it usually adds glow and depth, or if its not a great wax like Collis 476 it can mute finish, flake pop and shine so depending on your cars paint colour and if its a metallic or pearlescent finish choice of lsp can be quite a crucial factor in determining what the end result actually looks like

How exactly does a wax make metallic fleck pop? I'm sorry but I really can't help but think claims like this (and I understand that a lot of manufacturer claims are marketing buzz), when reiterated by customers really are just placebo reactions to having a nice deeply clean car.

This is the only photo (albeit a still from an Ammo NYC vid), that I have seen that shows (very clearly) the benefit of having perfectly corrected paint. The swirls really take the life away from the paint, however, the water (acting as a glaze / filler) shows the paint in all its glory.



Even towards the edge of the photo, away from the direct light, there is no fleck "pop", it's the 'flawless' paintwork and direct light that makes fleck pop.

Please read again what i said, i said the wrong wax will mute flake pop not enhance :headbang: a good wax however will let the flake pop be seen in all its glory as well as adding wetness and depth

 

[jimmybell]

I'm of the same opinion - detailingworld is full of people regurgitating the marketing BS from some of these companies, down to the weird and wonderful adjectives the companies employ to sell them.

I'd also argue that unless you're Larry himself, pretty much all of us aren't going to notice the difference between two cars at 90% and 100% quality polish/wax job, never mind notice the difference between two similar waxes.

I've got Victoria Concours wax, it's nice. It's a similar colour to my car, so technically it's possible it improves the colour - but really it's just nice because it keeps it clean longer, and water/dirt beads off.

 

[mr wilks]

Lavished some Autobright wax polish on my TT today , , if there's a easier to use product that smells as good & gives as good a shine for £10 then please tell me what it is









I have been using Autosmart mirror image but after almost 12 months that ran out so thought id try something different to compare
My target price for any product is always £10 , not cause i'm tight but cause i think its enough :wink:
For any lazy folks who want a great finish with minimal effort give it a go
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Autobright-Bright-Brazilian-Carnauba-Polish/dp/B00BV4O1XG/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1426186159&sr=8-2-fkmr0&keywords=autobright+cherry+fusion

 

[Tricky Dicky]

DA's / rotary etc do indeed remove clear coat ( or paint if its a single stage ) by microns. modern cars have less and less paint and more clear coat ( I guess due to cost ) there is only so many Microns you can take off before you are left with none, takes a lot to do that but If you held a rotary on the panel for too long, it will burn through, hence the DA was born, to reduce / remove that risk for weekend amateurs and professionals working on rare paint and expensive cars.

I use a rotary for spot work and now a DA21 for most of the car. A car with corrected paint will shine regardless. Wax/sealant adds protection and in some cases ( or at least I've found ) can add a glow to the paint. More "shiny" no, but definitely a glow. On silver I use #645 collonite x2 coats and a coat of R888 which I;ve always found to warm the refections up a tad and almost give a wet look.

Its always going to be in the prep though.

My steps for a major cut/polish are:

Rinse
Iron out
Foam
Wash with Dish soap to strip wax
rinse
clay
rinse
dryl
Compound :machine DA21 with Microfibre cutting pad with Menzerna compound med cut
Polish: machine DA21 with finishing pad & Menerna final finish
Once swirl fee I put 2 coats #845 and a coat of R888
Sometimes add PB glaze before #845 but it doesn't really need it I think.

Hi I have a titanium silver zed ,where do yo buy your #845 and R888 do these products have trade names ,tried to find ,no joy thanks

 

[Zero4]

Hi, I usually buy from www.cleanyourcar.co.uk ( great service )

#845 = Collonite 845 Insulator wax
R222 - paste wax = R888 paste wax ( R222 is the brand I keep calling it R888 for some reason, maybe the tyres I used to have haha )



Colonite is a very good brand, the #845 is a really good performer and last a long time, well worth it just shake well to get it from solid to liquid ( depending on temp )

Links:

http://www.cleanyourcar.co.uk/wax/collinite-no-845-insulator-wax/prod_208.html

http://www.cleanyourcar.co.uk/wax/r222-carnauba-wax/prod_357.html

 

[Tricky Dicky]

Hi, I usually buy from http://www.cleanyourcar.co.uk ( great service )

#845 = Collonite 845 Insulator wax
R222 - paste wax = R888 paste wax ( R222 is the brand I keep calling it R888 for some reason, maybe the tyres I used to have haha )



Colonite is a very good brand, the #845 is a really good performer and last a long time, well worth it just shake well to get it from solid to liquid ( depending on temp )

Links:

http://www.cleanyourcar.co.uk/wax/collinite-no-845-insulator-wax/prod_208.html

http://www.cleanyourcar.co.uk/wax/r222-carnauba-wax/prod_357.html

hi thanks for getting back , ive found a site called AutoGeek Online which discribes #845 warming and application etc , i think i will be getting some , .do you rate the r222 over Victorias Concours wax , as ive heard V good reports about it in some forums my car is Tit silver ,

 

[Zero4]

I've not used Vic concours myself but heard lots of good reviews on it. I had a tub of R222 which lasted a long time and used it primarily on my silver VX220 and really made a great wet look "sheen"

Your prep has to be good though, I've just taken out all the swirl marks out of the Z's paint and I have VERY good paint now. not perfect as have the odd stone chip obviously but its got very very clean paint now for an 03 plate.

I don't think it matters too much what you use ( there may be very slight changes in warmth and reflection with specific wax ) but if your prep is good its more for protection. #845 last a hell of a lot longer than most waxes ( in some cases more than sealants ) but is applied and buffed very easily which is why I use it.

 

[MickAdams]

So people say: "Use a Paint Thickness Gauge!"

This sounds like another expensive load of hokum to me. The essential information one needs is the thickness of the clear-coat. In this context nothing else matters. Sure, a paint thickness gauge might be useful in telling one the total thickness of paint between the underlying panel and the surface and so may, for example, be useful in highlighting areas where variations in thickness might indicate previous repairs etc. but in this context, unless it can differentiate the actual thickness of the clear-coat only it is useless. There might be charts of figures somewhere that show of the total thickness of paint on the surface of the panel e.g. " X% should typically be clear-coat when new" but even this is fairly useless information in the context of a second-hand car when one doesn't actually know how much has already been polished off elsewhere before you even got the car?

I believe that there may be some PTGs (or rather scientific instruments which probably cost mutliple £1000s) out there that may be able to differentiate layers but certainly not the things I've commonly seen advertised (often for £100s) on detailing websites...although I haven't looked lately. Certainly that cheapo thing linked to above wouldn't inspire me with anymore confidence than just using my own commonsense and calling it a day when I felt I'd gone far enough to remain safe.

How exactly do you use common sense or know when you've gone too far to remain safe if you don't know what's there to begin with?

While it's true that it's not going to give you an exact number, you can easily use the cheaper type of PTG to get an idea of how much clear coat you have left on the original panels. All you do is find a bit of paint without clear on it, common places are in the door shuts, boot shut, under the bonnet etc... There's not normally too much variation, but take a few reading in these places, and use the highest reading as a safe guide to show what the rest of the car will have. You can then easily get an idea of how much clear there is on the outside of the car by seeing the difference between what's on the panel and the reading you took earlier.

Having a PTG is a great idea, especially if you're polishing a car that you don't know the history of. On my own Z4 for instance, I found that the boot lid paint is for some reason substantially thinner than the sides of the car or bonnet. I've used this information when polishing to guide me to go a lot easier and not aim for total correction on the boot lid, where I have on other panels where there's more to go at. Without having a PTG I'd not have known what to do, and would have no idea what I could and couldn't do around the car.

 

[Tricky Dicky]

I've not used Vic concours myself but heard lots of good reviews on it. I had a tub of R222 which lasted a long time and used it primarily on my silver VX220 and really made a great wet look "sheen"

Your prep has to be good though, I've just taken out all the swirl marks out of the Z's paint and I have VERY good paint now. not perfect as have the odd stone chip obviously but its got very very clean paint now for an 03 plate.

I don't think it matters too much what you use ( there may be very slight changes in warmth and reflection with specific wax ) but if your prep is good its more for protection. #845 last a hell of a lot longer than most waxes ( in some cases more than sealants ) but is applied and buffed very easily which is why I use it.

I think you are correct , #845 is on my to buy list ,stil debating about which wax to use, thanks for all your help

 

[Z4M-2006]

845 is a wax...

Its longevity is excellent... I used it a lot a few years ago, probably went through 6 bottles..


In its price range I think its pretty much unbeatable, although I prefer the ioncoat naviwax for an extra £10.

Brilliant longevity and the water displacement is mental ..