Waxing - The Emperor's New Clothes?
- Thread starter StevenH72
- Start date
Its funny but i have never really liked SRP.... UDS is ok on dark colours though....
I have to say it does amaze me that you cant tell any difference whatsover in an £8000 wax in comparison to a £20 wax...
Like hi end audio i guess......Smoke and mirrors...
I have to say it does amaze me that you cant tell any difference whatsover in an £8000 wax in comparison to a £20 wax...
Like hi end audio i guess......Smoke and mirrors...
Z4M-2006 said:Its funny but i have never really liked SRP.... UDS is ok on dark colours though....
I have to say it does amaze me that you cant tell any difference whatsover in an £8000 wax in comparison to a £20 wax...
Like hi end audio i guess......Smoke and mirrors...
I can't tell any difference between an £8000 wax and no wax.
I'd love to see a genuine example for somebody to prove me wrong though.
I spent a couple of hours with the guy who was doing my X5 at the time with Protech and he showed me all the difference between the products with some spare panels (which is what convinced me to go with the protech treatment rather than wax). Any wax you put on a car will remove the true shine of the paint, after all- you add a layer on top of the paint and the more you have on top of it, the less you see of the paint underneath (bit of an exaggeration of course as the layer is so thin).
Anyway, when looking at a waxed panel in really bright light, it is very shiny (think greasy in a way). Compared to the panel without it, you saw the true colour less clearly.
These were shown in extreme light conditions, so it is only an indication at the limits of course. My other cars beside the X5 and the Porsche are waxed by me with different products as some work well on certain paints whilst others don;t.
Swissol on the Red Golf works great, but was useless on the BMW paint. Menzerna was good on BMW paint and I use that for the Abarth and will use that for the Audi as well (but perhaps test Swissol on there as well first).
Anyway, when looking at a waxed panel in really bright light, it is very shiny (think greasy in a way). Compared to the panel without it, you saw the true colour less clearly.
These were shown in extreme light conditions, so it is only an indication at the limits of course. My other cars beside the X5 and the Porsche are waxed by me with different products as some work well on certain paints whilst others don;t.
Swissol on the Red Golf works great, but was useless on the BMW paint. Menzerna was good on BMW paint and I use that for the Abarth and will use that for the Audi as well (but perhaps test Swissol on there as well first).
I think that a big part of the 'wax makes your car shiny' is a bit of a hangover from the days before cars routinely had a clearcoat applied. Clearcoat only really started to be universally applied in the mid-1980s and the old single-stage paint used to get dull and fade fairly quickly, especially when exposed to lots of sunshine - I'm sure lots of you remember red cars that had turned dark pink after a few years.
Waxing does add a shine to things - think about polishing wood with wax, it adds a nice, glossy, surface coating and, with single-stage car paints, wax was routinely used to protect the paint from the sun to stop it fading so quickly and also to add a glossy layer - as the paint didn't have a clearcoat the gloss effect was much more pronounced.
With modern clearcoat finishes, on the other hand, there is already a gloss layer applied to the car and, assuming the clearcoat itself is in good condition or has been polished to remove scuffs, swirls and minor scratches, any additional shine provided by the wax is going to be negligible
That said, the thin wax layer on a clearcoat will still affect the light bouncing off the car and this is why some people say "it looks 'deeper'" or 'wet'. The transmissive and refractive properties of even a thin layer of wax can also change the perceived colour of the car slightly as the wax will not be equally transparant to all wavelengths of light causing some minor colour shifting. This, IMO, is where people see differences in different types of wax and is why some waxes seem to have more of an effect on some paint colours.
Waxing does add a shine to things - think about polishing wood with wax, it adds a nice, glossy, surface coating and, with single-stage car paints, wax was routinely used to protect the paint from the sun to stop it fading so quickly and also to add a glossy layer - as the paint didn't have a clearcoat the gloss effect was much more pronounced.
With modern clearcoat finishes, on the other hand, there is already a gloss layer applied to the car and, assuming the clearcoat itself is in good condition or has been polished to remove scuffs, swirls and minor scratches, any additional shine provided by the wax is going to be negligible
That said, the thin wax layer on a clearcoat will still affect the light bouncing off the car and this is why some people say "it looks 'deeper'" or 'wet'. The transmissive and refractive properties of even a thin layer of wax can also change the perceived colour of the car slightly as the wax will not be equally transparant to all wavelengths of light causing some minor colour shifting. This, IMO, is where people see differences in different types of wax and is why some waxes seem to have more of an effect on some paint colours.
StevenH72 said:Z4M-2006 said:Its funny but i have never really liked SRP.... UDS is ok on dark colours though....
I have to say it does amaze me that you cant tell any difference whatsover in an £8000 wax in comparison to a £20 wax...
Like hi end audio i guess......Smoke and mirrors...
I can't tell any difference between an £8000 wax and no wax.
I'd love to see a genuine example for somebody to prove me wrong though.
It's probably because your car having been corrected, and corrected well shows hardly any benefit to whatever product is applied..
If your prep is good with little or no swirls/webs then any wax put on would purely be for protection.
I think a protective layer is important, and as long as it doesn't detract from the prepped appearance then it's all good..
The differences I have seen definatly add "something"..but I will admit that it was the uber expensive stuff that made the panels look "flatter and uniform".... I doubt that it could be caught on camera as the change is subtle..plus you would have to know your cars paint intimately..
Hi guys, every cars necessity is different , every waz, cleaner or sealer acts differently upond the method (pad, speed and heat) used to perform the task.To those that have swirl marks you shoyld use a medium cutting pad with a medium cutting cream agent, second use same cream light cutting pad (same machine same speed).with last pad (clean) same machine use the wax of your preference 2-3times as desired same for the sealant afterwards withe light cutting pad.Most important after all this work is to subsequently clean your car with a soap thats PH is neutral, to guarantee your not washing off the oils just applied on the cars in the wax etc. This process applies for cars that have swirl marks for example.Lets say you want to correct the reflective pattern of the car so you dont have the scale effect , common on Japanese cars, for these cars you have to skip the medium cream and pad and to water sanding with 3000 grit paper.Im certified to restore and paint cars and my first amd most important advise when dealing with old cars thar are probably second handed is to measure the amount of clear you have left on the paint , to see how much sking you have to pursue your desired look.check this url for an example of something made for the average joe ----- https://www.pce-instruments.com/us/measuring-instruments/meters/coating-thickness-gauge-defelsko-corporation-coating-thickness-gauge-posipen-det_975522.htm?_list=kat&_listpos=9------the brands are all similar and your expectatives should not always be aligned with what you spended on products. If you want to make a huge difference in you car and budget for material is not an option and its acompanied with certain knowledge of power tools then all is game! ! Thats my 5 cents on this thread!!
God Bless you all
God Bless you all
I used to love detailing, spent/wasted hours and hours getting the paint to perfection....the amount of money I have sitting in car cleaning product in that garage is embarrassing really. To be honest, in this country I fail to see the value now, the weather is horrendous, a large part of your hard work is undone within 24 hours. The amount of times I have cleaned the car, then literally for the rain to come down an hour later.....soul destroying. If I lived in California, then it's a totally different story....quantifiable value.
In my head, get the car detailed once, then save the money and have the car re-sprayed after 3 years....and it's all nice and fresh again.
In my head, get the car detailed once, then save the money and have the car re-sprayed after 3 years....and it's all nice and fresh again.
Angelus666 said:
To be honest, although the above may sound almost heretical, I am becoming increasingly of the same mind.
I have been "detailing" my cars now for nearly 20 years. I used to go on the Roadfly detailing forum in the USA way before the term was ever widely used here in the U.K. I bought my first Porter Cable from the USA over 15 years ago and still have to run it on 110V. It's still going strong I might add...that's Good Old 'Mercian hardware for you!
Like Angelus666, I have or had an absolutely embarrassing amount of money invested sitting in my garage in terms of detailing products. I say "embarrassing" because it's embarrassing that I fell for so much hokum, snake-oil and marketing double-dutch over the years.
With time and experience, I began to wake-up and look at things with a bit more clarity of thought. I started just throwing a lot of stuff away...boxes full of half used stuff! Other stuff I just used up to get rid of it and never replaced it again. I'm now trying to work to a position where I've used all up the 'stuff' and will then just stick to a very small number of items that I'll use for the "paint correction".
But, let's just call "paint correction" by its ordinary English word which is "polished". It saves using two words when one will suffice? It also saves it from sounding like a whole load of mumbo-jumbo?
This, in my book, actually means no more than taking out those blemishes (fine scratches, swirls, spiders, micro-marring whatever one wishes to call them) which are limited to the clear coat. Anything else is a waste of time, effort and money as it is not possible. One proviso to this is that I do have one car which has true 'solid paint' (i.e. no clear-coat) where true paint removal and actually polishing of the paint is possible.
To achieve proper paint correction, I no longer feel I need a myriad of different expensive lotions and potions. Time and technique are by far the most important elements in achieving a good shine...not product IMHO. The concept is simple. All one is trying to do is level off the clear-coat. That is to say, removing all the tiny scratches etc. that cause light to be scattered away from rather than reflected directly back towards the observer's eye. Anything less than this or products that do (or claim to) "add shine" are just masking the issue by filling in the scratches temporarily. They might do this with varying success and (possibly) some do so for varying lengths of time but that's what they are doing. So, a wax or glaze etc might actually make a car that isn't or can't be fully polished "shine" more by filling-in those imperfections that would otherwise cause scatter.
As such, I have nothing against manufacturers making and selling these products and claiming they can add shine. However, when I read on professional detailers websites or on forum descriptions that they:
".... used as the final touch, to really bring out the depth of shine "Such and Such's Super-Mega Expensive Wax"....made from the finest Carnauba wax, collected from the most exotic hidden Brazilian Palm groves, who's leaves have been plucked and dried only by Amazonian virgins and thus the purest that you can apply to a car...Oh, and by the way, it costs $20,000 for a tiny tub but it does come in its own velvet lined box so it's got to be good."
What they are telling me is an admission of failure!
In other words, some of the micro-blemishes are still there. They've failed to eliminate them...and so they've had to fill them in! " Sorry about that! But we have filled them in really expensively! So that's ok, isn't it?"
On a properly/perfectly polished car a wax does not add shine. However, I believe one has to be realistic. And realistic and several levels:
Firstly, even if one could achieve an absolutely perfectly polished car which is both extremely difficult and potentially hazardous trying to achieve, can this be truly and indefinitely maintained, particularly in this country if the car is going to actually be used to any degree? The most careful of washing and drying techniques can obviously significantly reduce the re-introduction of blemishes but I doubt they can totally avoid them in the long-term with regular use of the car. There was a chap in the U.S on the Roadfly Detailing Forum years ago who never used waxes etc on his perfectly polished car but then he also only ever used filtered, distilled, de-ionised water to wash his car and nothing else! How many of us would be able and prepared to go that far? One wonders what use he had for even frequenting a detailing forum?
So, for most of us, if we're honest, we might be using a bit of wax or some such to cover up a little of our 'failure' to eliminate all of scratches, all of the time?
Secondly, I'm currently polishing my Z4 and it's going well, I think. To be honest, it was pretty good before I even started and I've spent quite a long time to where it's both as close to where I want it to be...and where I to dare to go! The true shine (i.e without any wax or other) is pretty much what I'm going to be happy with. I'm going to use up some Z5 with Z6 layering as my own "admission of failure" and simply because I have it lying around still, paid loads for it and now I just want to be rid of it. That's the last of the Zaino products/"stuff" that I have and I'm not buying any of it again.
Question:
Why am I not going further with the polishing?
Answer:
A) I'm lazy and getting bored. The equivalent of probably 3 solid days so far is getting to be enough for me now. Admittedly, I did waste a good deal of that time because I was going 'too soft' on this Z4 paint which seems very tough? I did most of it with my PC. I did the bonnet which was the biggest area with the PC to start off with and spent ages before I realised I was kidding myself and had to go back to square one and get my rotary out!
B) This brings me to my second reason for why I think I'll stop the polishing process at this point. With the PC, one would have to be wilfully moronic to be able to go right through the clear-coat. With the rotary, it is certainly possible and to cause other problems along the way. I know it's possible to go through a clear-coat with a rotary because I've done it once before. Actually, I did it 'semi' on purpose just to see what it would take to get some really bad swirls out on the boot panel on an E34 530i that I once had. Even going through to the base-coat didn't totally eliminate them and it did actually take a surprising degree of stupidity to go all the way through the clear-coat! :lol: That said, it didn't really matter to me too much on that car. But on my prized Z4....???
So, the reason for stopping now is fear.
So people say: "Use a Paint Thickness Gauge!"
This sounds like another expensive load of hokum to me. The essential information one needs is the thickness of the clear-coat. In this context nothing else matters. Sure, a paint thickness gauge might be useful in telling one the total thickness of paint between the underlying panel and the surface and so may, for example, be useful in highlighting areas where variations in thickness might indicate previous repairs etc. but in this context, unless it can differentiate the actual thickness of the clear-coat only it is useless. There might be charts of figures somewhere that show of the total thickness of paint on the surface of the panel e.g. " X% should typically be clear-coat when new" but even this is fairly useless information in the context of a second-hand car when one doesn't actually know how much has already been polished off elsewhere before you even got the car?
I believe that there may be some PTGs (or rather scientific instruments which probably cost mutliple £1000s) out there that may be able to differentiate layers but certainly not the things I've commonly seen advertised (often for £100s) on detailing websites...although I haven't looked lately. Certainly that cheapo thing linked to above wouldn't inspire me with anymore confidence than just using my own commonsense and calling it a day when I felt I'd gone far enough to remain safe.
In summary
Sure, we all like our cars to look nice but I, as much as many people, have I think been too guilty of reading detailing forums and then become needlessly and actually pointlessly obsessed/borderline OCD with car "detailing".
So, I think there is actually a lot of truth in what Angelus666 says and certainly when one owns a car in this country and actually wishes to drive it. Our weather and roads are filthy! I'd also agree with what the OP alludes to in the original question which was as much as to pose the question: "If you are truly OCD and have truly achieved the perfect shine, why would you need a wax to add extra shine?"
Right! Better get back to the garage now and see how that layer of Z5 I put on yesterday is curing! :lol:
Think i got the above although i was lost for a while :? a refreshing change to hear the other side :wink:
I love my cars (& van) & like them clean & shiny BUT i'm not interested in spending crazy time or cash on products that may or may not outperform all other products available .
I am more than happy with Autoglym SRP to clean paint (£10 ) Poorboys blackhole (£13 ) with glaze to fill light scratches + add colour then top off with Autosmart Mirror finish wax (£10)
A lot of snobbery & elitism goes with detailing products so for the uninitiated don't feel pressured into spending big money
start with the well known "cheaper" products & see how it goes , if happy then stay with the proven formula , you can get great results with minimum time & little effort
I love my cars (& van) & like them clean & shiny BUT i'm not interested in spending crazy time or cash on products that may or may not outperform all other products available .
I am more than happy with Autoglym SRP to clean paint (£10 ) Poorboys blackhole (£13 ) with glaze to fill light scratches + add colour then top off with Autosmart Mirror finish wax (£10)
A lot of snobbery & elitism goes with detailing products so for the uninitiated don't feel pressured into spending big money
start with the well known "cheaper" products & see how it goes , if happy then stay with the proven formula , you can get great results with minimum time & little effort mr wilks said:Think i got the above although i was lost for a while :? a refreshing change to hear the other side :wink:
I love my cars (& van) & like them clean & shiny BUT i'm not interested in spending crazy time or cash on products that may or may not outperform all other products available .
I am more than happy with Autoglym SRP to clean paint (£10 ) Poorboys blackhole (£13 ) with glaze to fill light scratches + add colour then top off with Autosmart Mirror finish wax (£10)
A lot of snobbery & elitism goes with detailing products so for the uninitiated don't feel pressured into spending big money
Exactly!
And those are all very good products. And so, I'm adding up here...for only £33 one could have a very good line up and a very good looking car indeed!
I get enquiries through my website all the time... "What do you use to do this?"; "What do you use to do your engine bays" etc etc etc. Like I have some secret, miracle formula "cures". I don't! I just tell people the truth, as far as I know it... that it's just time, effort and elbow grease. You don't do this on Sunday afternoon some "magic secret products kit" that you bought off the internet for the USA....nor should you want actually. Believe me! :lol:
http://www.bmwclassics.co.uk/gallery/index.php?spgmGal=cc_before
http://www.bmwclassics.co.uk/gallery/index.php?spgmGal=cc_during
http://www.bmwclassics.co.uk/gallery/index.php?spgmGal=m535
the "shine" come from the prep, the paint correction. The flatter the paint is ( less peaks and troughs from scratches ) the better the shine and depth is. Wax is just for protection. Ok... Some waxes I've found have a slightly "glossier" effect ( like R888 on silver, its very good ) but generally has little in terms of lasting protection. a good sealant or even wax like #845 can give great protection but its the elbow grease that makes the car shine. anything but machining the car with a DA or rotary is nearly masking the very thing that creates a dull surface.
As for cost, the off the shelf consumer products actually work out more expensive in the end.
As for cost, the off the shelf consumer products actually work out more expensive in the end.
RLFILMSCO said:
How so ?
We have 4 vehicles in our household including my son's & all 4 get the same treatment
I put our yearly costs on detailing/cleaning products around £100 with half that going on snowfoam for the pre wash as it doesn't go as far as the wax & polishes do even though it costs more & you initially get more
All 4 vehicles also have the same shine & glass like touch on the paintork , even my Astravan
mr wilks said:RLFILMSCO said:
How so ?
We have 4 vehicles in our household including my son's & all 4 get the same treatment
I put our yearly costs on detailing/cleaning products around £100 with half that going on snowfoam for the pre wash as it doesn't go as far as the wax & polishes do even though it costs more & you initially get more
All 4 vehicles also have the same shine & glass like touch on the paintork , even my Astravan
I tend to buy valet bulk products. So basically instead of buying say a detail spray at £10 or so I buy bulk Litres which is made to dilute. lasts a hell of a lot longer per spray bottle for the cost. I found if I was using it every weekend/2 weekends it just makes sense especially for things like shampoo.
By consumer i mean, walking into halfords and buying the Megs stuff with a jazzy label. A lot of consumer products also have fillers, especially the polish and all I want a polish to do is polish. Thats not obviously a blanket statement but Pure compounds and pure polishes tend only to be sold at dedicated detailing places and often are the "pro" range ( whatever that means haha )
I have spent lots of cash over the years.. I was into it 20 years ago and there is always the chase for perfection or that " perfect" product..
It also depends on what you want your paint to look like . Some people are happy to slap polish on and it looks good...in the direct light it looks horrendous but they are happy enough and that's ok..
The machine polisher is a must if you want to get the car paint looking its best, you don't need to spend hours and hours on a panel.. Even knocking back the faintest of scratches will reap big rewards..
I have done all the 3 stage compounding etc etc but now I have a simple procedures and products to make the car look 80% better for 25% of the work and time..
Few passes on each panel with megs ultimate compound on hard pad.remove with microfibre.
Then with finishing pad cover panels with 50 cal show glaze as a filler.. Dwell for 5 minutes and remove.
Seal with artdejohnson repel coat..
Super fast and simple.. Products under £60 inc pads.. I have a Das21 which covers the panels very quickly, evenly and with little effort as it's well balanced..
And let's be honest guys, it's ok taking pics of our cars and putting them on the net... They all look brand new! Ha ha..but it's the 5ft away check that's the hard one to be happy with..
It also depends on what you want your paint to look like . Some people are happy to slap polish on and it looks good...in the direct light it looks horrendous but they are happy enough and that's ok..
The machine polisher is a must if you want to get the car paint looking its best, you don't need to spend hours and hours on a panel.. Even knocking back the faintest of scratches will reap big rewards..
I have done all the 3 stage compounding etc etc but now I have a simple procedures and products to make the car look 80% better for 25% of the work and time..
Few passes on each panel with megs ultimate compound on hard pad.remove with microfibre.
Then with finishing pad cover panels with 50 cal show glaze as a filler.. Dwell for 5 minutes and remove.
Seal with artdejohnson repel coat..
Super fast and simple.. Products under £60 inc pads.. I have a Das21 which covers the panels very quickly, evenly and with little effort as it's well balanced..
And let's be honest guys, it's ok taking pics of our cars and putting them on the net... They all look brand new! Ha ha..but it's the 5ft away check that's the hard one to be happy with..
Z4M-2006 said:
This is so true. It's often difficult to tell just how good a car looks on most internet pictures.
But with my Z4 I've been going for more like a 5cm away check! :lol: I bought it a week and a half ago and apart from driving it back home I haven't even driven it yet*. I'm going to "detail" it first to a standard that I'm happy with...but I'm only going to do it once! Thereafter, I hope I am sufficiently cured of this illness to be able just drive and wash the car!
(* In truth, there's been little chance or incentive to drive it so far anyway as I've been busy at work during the days and the roads around here are still filthy at this time of year.)
Yep..
I have to use mine daily so its a bit if a battle between the OCD, the dirt and keeping my hands off it.
I was talking to a pro detailer late last year about the situation we are discussing..
He is probably one of the best in the country and is a great guy to boot, very honest and straightforward with no snake oil or secrecy ..
We where talking about paint depths specifically and the paint to clear coat ratio.. And he said as a rule most cars have 250/400 microns of paint colour and clearcoat with a 60/40% ratio respectively ..
But new generation cars can have as little as 80 microns of paint colour and clearcoat in the same ratio's..
So actual correction maybe a thing of the past.. Glazing (filling and masking) and protection being the way forward.
I have to use mine daily so its a bit if a battle between the OCD, the dirt and keeping my hands off it.
I was talking to a pro detailer late last year about the situation we are discussing..
He is probably one of the best in the country and is a great guy to boot, very honest and straightforward with no snake oil or secrecy ..
We where talking about paint depths specifically and the paint to clear coat ratio.. And he said as a rule most cars have 250/400 microns of paint colour and clearcoat with a 60/40% ratio respectively ..
But new generation cars can have as little as 80 microns of paint colour and clearcoat in the same ratio's..
So actual correction maybe a thing of the past.. Glazing (filling and masking) and protection being the way forward.
all done by hand , no machinery as i would be worried i would do more harm than good :? 
Only a rotary used incorrectly can harm paint Andy.. With DA's it's really difficult to go damage..
The thing is that a picture will not pic up what the eye can see, it's impossible..
And if the panel has never been corrected then it will have swirls, holograms etc etc on there.. Its unavoidable mostly...
I have done mine late last summer and I can see marks again where the clumps at BMW washed it in October..
Like I say... It's what your happy with.. Personally I wish I was less bothered..
The thing is that a picture will not pic up what the eye can see, it's impossible..
And if the panel has never been corrected then it will have swirls, holograms etc etc on there.. Its unavoidable mostly...
I have done mine late last summer and I can see marks again where the clumps at BMW washed it in October..
Like I say... It's what your happy with.. Personally I wish I was less bothered..