Vanos rebuild

[AndyBeech]

Thanks for that Andy, certainly food for thought

I don't think that £1000 is too bad at all given its using genuine parts, includes labour and a warranty. Lets face it, there's no cheap way to do this unless you can diy it, but frankly I'd happily pay the extra to give the burden of responsibility to someone else-if I screw it up I'll end up paying twice!

Indeed, it's a lot of money, but it's piece of mind for a front of engine refresh that you won't need to worry about again it if it's something you decide needs doing. Other parts around that area will be checked as well, the plastic timing chain guide on mine was also cracked (common fault) and probably would have snapped part of it off had it been left for too much longer so that was swapped out for a new at the same time. Bearing in mind you also get a brand new solenoid and valve block, which is the most costly parts, as opposed to a soldered up solenoid and your old valve block. So I can forget about that whole area now. If you really want to tie up the whole top end in one go, you could do the head gasket and cam followers at the same time, but obvs that's going to really ramp up the cost!

Having said that, mileage dependant, I wouldn't necessarily prioritise that area of the engine for work unless you feel something's up. For example, a change in power delivery, idle characteristics changed, top end noise that wasn't previously there etc.

If you can get someone with ISTA / DIS diagnostics to carry out a full VANOS test, that will give you a good indication if it's working correctly or not. From there if you have no abnormal noises from that area through the rev range, no EML codes relating to it, or power abnormalities, then I wouldn't put it top of my list for work personally. Just my 2p on the matter

 

[Beedub]

yeah i think a grand is reasonable too......

My indy's an ex BMW master tech, he did a complete overhaul of the vanos including solenoids a CDV delete and a gearbox oil change for just over half of that.

now thats impressive!

 

[Dave1971]

yeah i think a grand is reasonable too......

My indy's an ex BMW master tech, he did a complete overhaul of the vanos including solenoids a CDV delete and a gearbox oil change for just over half of that.

now thats impressive!

He's a top quality guy with a great reputation. Talking about jobs I wanted doing he said to me "it's really easy I don't know why places charge so much". I think because he finds it easy he doesn't fully appreciate that the rest of us don't.

 

[jamie_z4]

Dlv does it for 300 quid... But apparently is too dear

 

[AndyBeech]

My indy's an ex BMW master tech, he did a complete overhaul of the vanos including solenoids a CDV delete and a gearbox oil change for just over half of that.

now thats impressive!

He's a top quality guy with a great reputation. Talking about jobs I wanted doing he said to me "it's really easy I don't know why places charge so much". I think because he finds it easy he doesn't fully appreciate that the rest of us don't.

I depends on the 'rebuild'. It's the cost of parts. There's lots of parts you can replace and not all rebuilds are the same in that respect. The parts for mine alone, to put it in context, would have been at least £600 if not more. You get a new valve block and solenoid from BMW with Mr Vanos. That part alone if you went to BMW yourself today is £500 inc. vat. Add gaskets, seals, redesigned pump disk, helical gear work, optional extras such as timing chain guide plus labour on all of that and you can see it quite easily gets up to the grand mark. Add in a valve clearance check while he's in there because, may as well, and it's not a totally unrealistic price.
Obviously I don't know the extent of the repair you had, would be interested to know.

I don't know all the rights and wrongs and what should be replaced and what shouldn't be etc. I can only give advice from personal experience and what I picked up from numerous well known on here specialists I spoke to about it along the way. There's certainly more than one way to rebuild it for sure, and what works for some might not work for others, including my advice of course. The extra money I paid is in my opinion worth it though but yeah there is more than one way to crack an egg in the case of the VANOS.

 

[AndyBeech]

Dlv does it for 300 quid... But apparently is too dear

Eh? The parts alone for a full Besian rebuild would be more than that! Think you're talking about the M54, has Mike done an S54?

 

[jamie_z4]

Dlv does it for 300 quid... But apparently is too dear

Eh? The parts alone for a full Besian rebuild would be more than that! Think you're talking about the M54, has Mike done an S54?

Ah yeah M54, but still cheap sure you'll agree!

 

[AndyBeech]

Dlv does it for 300 quid... But apparently is too dear

Eh? The parts alone for a full Besian rebuild would be more than that! Think you're talking about the M54, has Mike done an S54?

Ah yeah M54, but still cheap sure you'll agree!

No idea, don't know what's involved with that particular engine.

 

[jamie_z4]

Eh? The parts alone for a full Besian rebuild would be more than that! Think you're talking about the M54, has Mike done an S54?

Ah yeah M54, but still cheap sure you'll agree!

No idea, don't know what's involved with that particular engine.

It's still gonna be the same principal, still an i6 engine with twin vanos....

 

[markos]

I remember about 6 years back Mr Vanos was around £600, definitely not more. He was sorting out a friend's Z3M, I brought mine over and asked him to have a listen to mine, which he did and he thought it needed doing. To my ears – and my friend's – we couldn't hear what he was on about. 5 years and 20k+ miles later (and asking every M tech who ever serviced the car to listen for any VANOS noises – which they never heard) the car ran perfectly, no issues, no unusual noises or rattles apart from the usual S54 noises. Guess his ear was a lot sharper than everyone elses.

 

[AndyBeech]

Ah yeah M54, but still cheap sure you'll agree!

No idea, don't know what's involved with that particular engine.

It's still gonna be the same principal, still an i6 engine with twin vanos....

To a degree maybe, but the units are quite different in design. But the thread is specifically about the S54 so it's kinda moot point in any case?

 

[GuidoK]

The S54 and M54 vanos units are totally different in both design and functioning with each its own problems.
The s54 vanos is more complicated (more parts and more potential issues)

 

[AndyBeech]

I remember about 6 years back Mr Vanos was around £600, definitely not more. He was sorting out a friend's Z3M, I brought mine over and asked him to have a listen to mine, which he did and he thought it needed doing. To my ears – and my friend's – we couldn't hear what he was on about. 5 years and 20k+ miles later (and asking every M tech who ever serviced the car to listen for any VANOS noises – which they never heard) the car ran perfectly, no issues, no unusual noises or rattles apart from the usual S54 noises. Guess his ear was a lot sharper than everyone elses.

Ha yeah, fair one. I think I paid him about that nearly 10 years ago on my E36 M. He does have a rather unique market niche though. I deffo had an abnormal noise on my Z4 not the usual rattle, more a whirring sound. And not a single other specialist I'm aware of offers an exchange service on the unit (I spoke to many). It was basically spend X amount of money diagnosing a fault / replacing parts which could be many things (stupidly I did initially) and a refurb unit was the only thing that fixed it and runs quiet as a mouse now. Took ages to get to that point mind, he is a pain in the ass to get hold of, although I believe he does have personal circumstances which dictate that in fairness, let alone a 2 month odd waiting list for work.
It was a garage in Reading I went to eventually that Steve visits periodically to service his customers cars VANOS units and it was done in a week after that, got lucky I guess in that respect. But yeah I doubt many will have the issues with it I did, I just got unlucky!

The S54 and M54 vanos units are totally different in both design and functioning with each its own problems.
The s54 vanos is more complicated (more parts and more potential issues)

Thanks Guidok, what I thought. On that, you're a knowledgeable chap, what's your thoughts on the VANOS and various repair methods? The topic still interests me after my trails and tribulations with it! Always wondered if on the German forums there would be any different points of view on it for example.

 

[GuidoK]

what's your thoughts on the VANOS and various repair methods?

Are you referring to the bolts that can shear off or the potential breaking of the oil disc locating pins?
Or that kit to reduce axial bearing play in the splined shaft bearing?

 

[AndyBeech]

what's your thoughts on the VANOS and various repair methods?

Are you referring to the bolts that can shear off or the potential breaking of the oil disc locating pins?
Or that kit to reduce axial bearing play in the splined shaft bearing?

Well the whole Besian method of rebuilding. The seal (o-ring) kit seems fair, and obviously the new bolts are neccasary as BMW revised the design themselves.

But yeah the anti rattle kit, solenoid and valve block parts, I never did understand why you would replace the seals in the valve sealing plate when a new one of those from BMW is pounds anyway for example. Out of interest, do you know if BMW actually supply a new VANOS unit these days or if they just refurb units themselves...I was under the impression it was the latter?

 

[GuidoK]

But yeah the anti rattle kit,

I dont have hands on experience with the s54 vanos, but I doubt the anti rattle kit is necessary. If in that region (so the axial bearing that sits in the splined helix gear) develops more play than from factory, it can only come from wear from that bearing (in which case that bearing is scrap).
Its only useful to reduce rattle that was there from factory, so maybe only when upgrading cams that apply more force on the vanos than stock.

solenoid and valve block parts

I think if the solenoid pack functions, it functions.

, I never did understand why you would replace the seals in the valve sealing plate when a new one of those from BMW is pounds anyway for example. [/quote[
They replace the original bmw seals (made from NBR) with viton seals that are supposed to be more heat resistant and last longer.
But if you take a new valve seal plate you're also good for many years.
Any failure is easily spotted as it would leak to the outside. A new bmw seal plate is about £25.

[quote[
Out of interest, do you know if BMW actually supply a new VANOS unit these days or if they just refurb units themselves...I was under the impression it was the latter?

I dont know. I only know that a complete unit from bmw is 2k, so very expensive.

What I think is the most akward failure in the vanos unit is the hub with the oil pump disc locating tabs breaking off. I've seen tabs breaking off from people with cars that they never track and just drive relative calmly and people who are complete hooligans and not breaking them, so it seems that its not related to the useage of the engine. It just happens or not.
I think the altered hub from turbotoy is the best solution, but expensive (£700 or so). But they place a cnc'd ring on it with redesigned tabs, made out of a very exotic steel type that is very tough. (much stronger than the steel type that vac motorsports uses who have a similar engineered solution). I think if your hub is broken already (and you have to get a new one anyway) the turbotoy solution is hte way to go
I think the beisan altered pump disc may be only part of the solution.


The first thing that I noticed about the whole vanos and camshaft procedures is that I cant find a torque setting or loctite advice for the bolts that hold in the splined gearsleeve into the camshafts. (I think those are the bolts that risk shearing off?)
Has anybody noticed that or am I just looking in the wrong place in TIS?
The beisan guide says 12Nm and the use of a medium threadlocker. (I would clean those bolts and boltholes very meticulously with cotton swabs and acetone or so)

 

[Beedub]

the VAC hub is around 100 bucks cheaper.... than the turbo TOY unit, having read the specs for both and done alittle research into the materials i dont think the TT unit is worth the extra 100 bucks for the cobalt piece... i do however like his weight offsetting idea by removing excess material from the outer section, but this would be cheap and easy to replicate on the VAC unit. i really need to order one of these while my engine is so lack of miles, would be a really nice preventative item. my vanos is currently silent, but so it should be at 12k miles. I also really enjoy taking these type of items off myself and just having a go.

https://store.vacmotorsports.com/s54-vanos-hub-upgrade-p3771.aspx

 

[GuidoK]

The turbotoy unit uses an aircraft grade steel that is literally twice as strong as the steel used in the VAC unit.

 

[Beedub]

The turbotoy unit uses an aircraft grade steel that is literally twice as strong as the steel used in the VAC unit.

and they have still broken occasionally...... TT will confirm some of these have still failed, which i found concerning

For me without a core replacement im looking at 750 bucks before i pay for the shipping etc, so the VAC unit is more attractive . i have emailed VAC for the metal strength figures for the billet they have used and will report back. If its higher than the stock figures quoted by TT website but double the thickness of the stock tabs i'm happy with that, either way it doesnt seem even the strongest solution is perfect.

 

[GuidoK]

The turbotoy unit uses an aircraft grade steel that is literally twice as strong as the steel used in the VAC unit.

and they have still broken occasionally...... TT will confirm some of these have still failed, which i found concerning

I thought that had only happened with the earlier versions (V1, V2, made from 4130 and 4340)?
And not the latest ones made from maraging steel?