'Upgrading' my E46 to an E85 - help sought!

[DaveP]

Well, I'm going around in circles at the moment, and would like a bit of context from those who have experience of doing this (if they exist).

I'm going to be downsizing from my E46 330ci Sport in the next few months, and want something I can use on track as well as occasionally on the road (I really don't do a lot of miles).
I want a 2-seat convertible, and I'd narrowed the list down to an S2000, a 2.7 986 Boxster and an MR2 mk3 (with the 190bhp VVT engine fitted). However, I stumbled on the Fifth Gear Z4/Boxster test, where Tiff and Plato were both favourable about the 3.0 E85 (non-Si) when compared with the 987 Boxster (2.7). Having almost bought a Z4 in the past, the cat was firmly among the pigeons.

While I know the drivetrain etc. pretty well, I worry that it might not feel as special or competent as the Honda or Porsche (which were designed from the ground up as 'proper' sportscars).
I've effectively got about £6k to buy a car and make it usable on track, which seems to be fine to get into a 2003-5 3.0 manual Z4 (with room for brakes, tyres and general refreshing).
A few questions, if I may:
1) For those who did, how does the Z4 feel after coming from an E46?
2) How does the Z4 go on track (without mega mods), compared to other things you've driven?
3) How did the decision to choose the Z4 over the S2000 and Boxster come about?
4) Is it, as the internet suggests, completely impossible to fit a 4pt harness in an E85? (roll-bars are readily available for the Porsche and Honda)

Thanks in advance.

 

[Chris_D]

Had an E46 M3 previously. Tracked and totalled it at the 'ring.
Wasn't an immediate transition to the zed for me as I lost 'Pongo' about 6 years ago and I've only just bought my E85 3.0i Z4 but I would say in comparison that the M3 was definitely a more 'autosport' oriented car obviously, benefitting from more sophisticated engine, chassis and suspension dynamics.
However, I haven't tracked my zed yet and dont really intend to.
After the M3 came an Atom2 and that was just a different planet in terms of feedback, power and handling, a true beast at the ring and capable of outrunning many a Porsche through the twisty sections!
I looked at boxters, S2000's and even an NSX but plumped for the zed due to not wanting to get rid of my daily driver. Also staying in the BMW camp so to speak was a motivating factor. Familiarity breeds contempt so they say but it can also be a benefit when dealing with typical BMW mechanical issues.
For everyday use and having that feeling of 'specialness' I can't rate the zed high enough above boxters et al.
Hope this shines a light for you....

 

[DaveP]

For everyday use and having that feeling of 'specialness' I can't rate the zed high enough above boxters et al.

Thank you - hugely appreciated!
The quote above is part of what concerned me, I guess. The Z4 is more of a 'daily' type compromise than the Porsche (more 'exotic'/expensive) and the S2000 (more highly-strung/less cossetting).

Would this mean that it's less fun on track than the others, I wonder? Or am I, on the basis of 5-6 trackdays a year, underestimating the importance I place on road manners?

 

[Chris_D]

For everyday use and having that feeling of 'specialness' I can't rate the zed high enough above boxters et al.

Thank you - hugely appreciated!
The quote above is part of what concerned me, I guess. The Z4 is more of a 'daily' type compromise than the Porsche (more 'exotic'/expensive) and the S2000 (more highly-strung/less cossetting).

Would this mean that it's less fun on track than the others, I wonder? Or am I, on the basis of 5-6 trackdays a year, underestimating the importance I place on road manners?

You only need to check out Franzino's posts to see how much fun a zed can be on track....
http://www.z4-forum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=90616

Boxter maintenance issues and cost put me off boxters.
S2000 you have to rev the arse off it to make it move.
zed has a double VANOS for torque right accross the rev range. pulls like a horse and actually sometimes feels torqy-er than my old M3. probably due to relative lightness of the zed vs M3.

 

[Artful-Bodger]

I looked at the very same cars before buying my Z4, the choice came down to one thing really, parts prices, Z4's are amazingly cheap to run when it comes to mechanicals as it's pretty much E46, I changed the brakes on mine for 330I fronts and new disc callipers rear for the same price of a pair of discs and pads on a Boxter!

The Honda suffers the same problem, if you lose an engine on a Z4 you can source another one easily and cheaply, have a look at the price of an engine or box on a S2000 or Boxter!

Add in the Z4 is very modification friendly, drives great, and is cheap to insure!

No brainer really unless you like spending money!

 

[Marius]

I prefer 3.0 z4 to e46 m3. Much more fun on the track and my ring times was much better. For me it's much easier to predict how car will react when you on the he edge, m3 is opposite it's just snaps and boom (cracked mine at brands hatch) .

 

[Marius]

I prefer 3.0 z4 to e46 m3. Much more fun on the track and my ring times was much better. For me it's much easier to predict how car will react when you on the he edge, m3 is opposite it's just snaps and boom (cracked mine at brands hatch) .

 

[Dave1971]

I've had 3 Z4's (including an ///M) and a 3.4s boxster. One thing I would seriously consider is how do YOU like to drive? The cars you have mentioned all have very different manners and characteristics. I can't comment on the S2000 but for me the Porsche although excellent was in some ways a little too capable and a bit dull because of it unlike the ///M which you always felt like you had to be 100% on the ball or it could get a bit frisky.

As others have said Porsche parts prices are still high even if the price of the car has come down with age, my boxster needed a new clutch £1000 :!: .

 

[faz_b]

I can actually offer you a direct user opinion of multiple cars on your list!

I've owned a 330ci drop top, a 3.0 z4 se, a 3.0 z4 si AND a porsche boxster 987.2 (2.9 engine) plus I have driven a s2000 on a few occasions.

First off, the ones I owned in order:

330ci:

z4 3.0 se

porsche boxster 987.2: (ignore the fact they are in showroom, I took these just before I bought it)

z4 3.0 si (my current car)

I'm going to start off with a very straightforward statement. The z4 si was and is the best of all the above - by a good margin as well.

A bit more depth! 330ci was a fantastic car and I would consider owning one again, but having fed the want for more speed now, I would veer in the direction of a e46 M3 instead of another 330 if I was going back to an e46. The only thing that put me off buying one when I was last considering a car purchase (only 6-8 weeks ago in fact) was the running costs of the M3. You need deep pockets for the parts and mods.

The 3.0 se was my first venture into z4 territory and looking back now, I dont think I got the best one. yes it was nice, I spent time and money on it and it had a good turn of speed, but I recall mine had circa 110K on the clock and hadnt been cared for. I did an entire interior swap to get it looking that good and even then, whilst I enjoyed the car and knew it had a lot of potential, I never felt that one was quite right.

I then moved to Dubai and bought the porsche. I thought (like you) that it was a ground up sports car, but actually after owning one... I dont think I would bother with another. Yes its very pretty, yes it has a lot more toys, and the one I had in particular had literally every possible option you could imagine - the carbon interior was a £4000 option when knew, plus it had 911 turbo II alloys, PDK double clutch gearbox, navigation and the top end bose premium sound system. As an every day car, apart from the cramped cabin, it is incredibly practical for a small sports car and very usable with all the toys. BUT... does it feel special? hell no. The "special" feeling fell away for me very quickly after the novelty wore off within a month or so. I took the car to Jebal Jais mountain range to hammer it and have some fun and whilst it performed well, it was also very clinical. If you have never driven a z4 I am sure you would love the car... if you have, then you would know its missing something. Quite what that something is I couldnt tell you, but for me, it didnt feel alive, something slightly disconnected about it. I do have to say though, the PDK gearbox is something else - phenomenal in terms of response. In terms of spec, toys, appearance, brand prestige and more, the porsche DOES beat the 3.0 se and power wise, they are about on par. The handling in bmw and the outright feel of the car is better though.

The s2000 I drove was a friends (also in dubai) and general impressions were a awesome machine... but you can drive it only two ways...like a granny at 10mph, or with your hair and your arse on fire at 100mph - the nature of VTEC...and that nature does make it a little difficult to compare. with the boxster and the z4 its virtually apples for apples, but because of its characteristics, whilst in appearance and on paper the s2000 should be comparable, in my mind... it kind of isnt. I think in realistic terms I would struggle to use it as a daily simply on the basis I have a very heavy right foot and would probably end up driving like an idiot every where, you might be different though?

I bought my z4 3.0 si a month or two ago and hands down, its the best of all mentioned in this post. The upgraded power output to 265bhp does make a BIG difference over the older se, plus with an si you get the general facelift spec (M sport steering wheel, facelift lights and bumpers, updated interior colours, often sport seats are specced and more) It feels tighter than the old se but more importantly, unlike the porsche, It not only makes me giggle when I put my foot down... but I am pretty sure it will continue to do so, and this is coming from someone who has owned in excess of 15 different cars. The feel of a car is massively important to me. Something which I actively seek and is very difficult to quantify - the 3.0 si delivers this for me in spades.

EDIT: another point to note is that whilst its pretty much the same engine in the 330 and the z4. 3.0 se, the z4 is FAR more visceral. Its lighter and all round a hell of a lot more reponsive (and quicker due to less weight) than the 330. When I went from the 330 to the z4, the jump in acceleration and the difference in how the car felt in its response was quite a shock (in a good way!)

 

[swilsco]

Woah, some solid advice there, it just makes me want to get in my Zed now and rag it around!

 

[Rialas]

Faz, that's interesting that you rate the 3.0si above the boxster pdk. Especially as the boxster is 2009 and newer? so a way higher price bracket. I'd possibly agree, love the si.


Dave, this is what I'd do. There are a couple of coupes mentioned with really high mileage in your price range. One of those would be perfect for track use, and if the engine detonates, stick a twin turbo in there from an e90. :lol: I'm tempted myself.

 

[faz_b]

Faz, that's interesting that you rate the 3.0si above the boxster pdk. Especially as the boxster is 2009 and newer? so a way higher price bracket. I'd possibly agree, love the si.


Dave, this is what I'd do. There are a couple of coupes mentioned with really high mileage in your price range. One of those would be perfect for track use, and if the engine detonates, stick a twin turbo in there from an e90. :lol: I'm tempted myself.

My boxer was a late 2010 and my current z4 is a 2007 so three years in it. The only thing that is better on the boxster for "fun" is that PDK gearbox. Seriously, I can't praise it enough, even with the zhp I've fitted to the z4 and the solid shift feel it had in manual, there is something incredibly satisfying about the 'box in the porsche.

I'll say it again though, on paper for toys, spec and (in my opinion) appearance, the 987.2 boxer does beat the z4. But for fun and driving experience, the z4 has the boxster over a barrel hands down. The price difference was huge as well. I bought the porsche in December last year for nearly £20k. The z4 I paid only £6600 for it late july/early August. Value for money again the z4 wins by a mile.

 

[Marlon]

Great write up Faz - love the pics too. I have to go by other peoples experiences because I have nothing to compare my 3.0si with - I came from an A4 FSI S-line (220 bhp though ) and prior to that a remapped Mondeo ST TDCi. What I will say is every time I drive this car I smile - its a very good DD but when I'm out on a proper run its a massively impressive machine. Never misses a beat and its acceleration and handling is epic. I recall someone on here saying that its the 'sweet spot' in the Z4 range. I've had mine remapped so its now around 288 bhp and feels like it too (before anyone asks I've not had it Dyno tested, so that's Quantum's claim :wink: )

 

[faz_b]

Great write up Faz - love the pics too. I have to go by other peoples experiences because I have nothing to compare my 3.0si with - I came from an A4 FSI S-line (220 bhp though ) and prior to that a remapped Mondeo ST TDCi. What I will say is every time I drive this car I smile - its a very good DD but when I'm out on a proper run its a massively impressive machine. Never misses a beat and its acceleration and handling is epic. I recall someone on here saying that its the 'sweet spot' in the Z4 range. I've had mine remapped so its now around 288 bhp and feels like it too (before anyone asks I've not had it Dyno tested, so that's Quantum's claim :wink: )

Thanks chap! I hope dave finds comments useful which is the main thing. I must admit I have considered a remap but I'm also tinkering with the idea of a supercharger kit... when funds allow and when I'm back in UK again (been called away again on a four month project. Currently writing this in dubai and flying to Saudi Arabia in a couple days)

Have got a list of mods I'm going to get into when I get back as this gig pays quite well, but if I go for the lot I could top £8k which doesn't bare thinking about!!! :| :lol:

 

[Marlon]

Great write up Faz - love the pics too. I have to go by other peoples experiences because I have nothing to compare my 3.0si with - I came from an A4 FSI S-line (220 bhp though ) and prior to that a remapped Mondeo ST TDCi. What I will say is every time I drive this car I smile - its a very good DD but when I'm out on a proper run its a massively impressive machine. Never misses a beat and its acceleration and handling is epic. I recall someone on here saying that its the 'sweet spot' in the Z4 range. I've had mine remapped so its now around 288 bhp and feels like it too (before anyone asks I've not had it Dyno tested, so that's Quantum's claim :wink: )

Thanks chap! I hope dave finds comments useful which is the main thing. I must admit I have considered a remap but I'm also tinkering with the idea of a supercharger kit... when funds allow and when I'm back in UK again (been called away again on a four month project. Currently writing this in dubai and flying to Saudi Arabia in a couple days)

Have got a list of mods I'm going to get into when I get back as this gig pays quite well, but if I go for the lot I could top £8k which doesn't bare thinking about!!! :| :lol:

Superchargers aren't cheap !
Keep us posted

 

[Mr Tidy]

OP, I think faz has provided a pretty thorough comparison!

All I can say is that I have an E46 325ti Sport as a daily and it's a great car - but whenever I get in the Z4 it feels much more special, more like an exceptional car!

I only wanted a Coupe, so didn't have to consider an S2000 or Boxster (Caymans are in a different league price-wise), considered a 350Z but what I read suggested that although more powerful they are a fair bit heavier so not really any quicker.

Plus to me they don't look as good - I wanted a Z4C ever since I first saw one, and it hasn't disappointed!

 

[DaveP]

Thank you all for your replies, particularly those going into so much detail. It's hugely appreciated. I really like the Z4, but I guess the things holding me back fall under two headings:
1) I know the drivetrain. While it's 'nice' in my 330, I just can't help but wonder how special it could be in a car that's only ~100kg lighter. Perhaps I should look at flexing my budget a tad (and buying later into the winter) to get into a 3.0si.
2) I've not spent nearly enough time behind the wheels to understand how they drive, and what will suit my driving style. The answer here is to get out and try some.