Unemployed forumites

[lazerium]

Flimper, what area of business were you a senior manager in before? You should use the experience to make you stand out from the crowd and get your recruitment consultant to specifically target and contact/cold call their clients who fit you're previous are of expertise. Knowledge of an industry (manufacturing, retail, construction) or business area (IT/HR/distribution etc.) is a massive positive on your CV if targetted at the right employer.

I know it sounds strange but most employers (myself included) don't always know they've got a vacancy but will take on someone on spec if they stand out and look like they can add value.

 

[flimper]

I was/am a Trader/Odds Compiler in the bookmaking industry. My real problem is selling myself, and as you say, making myself stand out to a prospective employer. I haven't got a recruitment consultant, maybe that is what I need?

 

[gannet]

we are looking for a graduate programmer - proving a lot harder than you would think :?

we have a lot of applicants, just quality is poor

Yes - same here. I employ about 5 IT contractors a year and the standard is generally shocking. And that is for people I pay £500 a day for.

Poor quality in which areas, communication skill, knowledge, experience?

We get their cvs and select for interview based on that - we then have a 'programmer test' which asks them to write a program after the interview. 90% can't do the test or are very poor - one person even just simply walked out

We now have a pre-screening test, which asks some fairly basic questions - of which all should be straight forward to a graduate programmer. Candidates either cannot read or simply don't know the answers to the test so leave them blank

beggars belief really :roll:

 

[lazerium]

Flimper, you definitely need a recruitment consultant! Think of them as a bit like estate agents - they're a necessary evil but vital to finding you the right job.

You just need to remember that despite everything they tell you, they are ultimately payed by the employer (typically between 20-40% of your salary as a fee). Some of them will be lazy and just trawl through the vacancies they currently have while other will be pro-active in contacting their clients about you. There's nothing wrong with signing up with more than one (but don't tell them that or they won't give you their full attention).

Gaapweb.co.uk will give you a good idea of the more specialist consultants in your area, but Robert Half & Michael Page will generally appear on most employers lists of recruiters.

You also need to convert you're experience into more widely recognised and demanded specialisms, I would suggest that you're areas of expertise might actually include risk measurement and analysis, hedging, probability/scenario analysis etc. and highlight any particular skills eg. spreadsheets etc.

 

[flimper]

Thanks for taking the time to help, some useful nuggets there

 

[IK.]

Robert Half get the thumbs up here. My partner found her job through them and they were very good.

 

[sp3ctre]

We get their cvs and select for interview based on that - we then have a 'programmer test' which asks them to write a program after the interview. 90% can't do the test or are very poor - one person even just simply walked out

We now have a pre-screening test, which asks some fairly basic questions - of which all should be straight forward to a graduate programmer. Candidates either cannot read or simply don't know the answers to the test so leave them blank

beggars belief really :roll:

That is an interesting perspective. I recon I can code web applications better than most of our web development team, but ask me to sit in front of a computer and write from scratch and I couldn't remember all the exact syntax. For example, my DB connection strings in PHP.... used them 1000's of times but never written them, just copy/pasted.

I fell foul of that once (rookie mistake, I know) in a test... had done v.well in the interview but fell at the last hurdle. Several years on I now work for that same company (went for a different job), but still recon I can do better at web application programming than most of the team we have here.

 

[playalistic]

We get their cvs and select for interview based on that - we then have a 'programmer test' which asks them to write a program after the interview. 90% can't do the test or are very poor - one person even just simply walked out

We now have a pre-screening test, which asks some fairly basic questions - of which all should be straight forward to a graduate programmer. Candidates either cannot read or simply don't know the answers to the test so leave them blank

beggars belief really :roll:

That is an interesting perspective. I recon I can code web applications better than most of our web development team, but ask me to sit in front of a computer and write from scratch and I couldn't remember all the exact syntax. For example, my DB connection strings in PHP.... used them 1000's of times but never written them, just copy/pasted.

I fell foul of that once (rookie mistake, I know) in a test... had done v.well in the interview but fell at the last hurdle. Several years on I now work for that same company (went for a different job), but still recon I can do better at web application programming than most of the team we have here.

In the real world I have never held an interview and expected someone to be able to hack an app up using a specific framework or technology. I don't think you're going to encounter many interviewers who would expect this without at least giving you access to documentation via the web/man pages etc. I mean, this is how we do it in the real world. The tests I tend to give are more (in my opinion) basic tasks such as reversing a string. It is amazing how many applicants at "senior" level fold even given a simple task such as this. Once we progress beyond that level we tend to spend a couple of hours pair-programming (ping-pong TDD style where one writes a failing test, the other makes it pass) on a real feature for a customer. Now this is the very best way to interview a candidate in my opinion. Also, asking for their github account can shed a lot of light on what kind of developer they are i.e. which open source projects they maintain or contribute to. In my opinion this kicks the CVs ass into touch.

 

[BobZ4]

Yes - same here. I employ about 5 IT contractors a year and the standard is generally shocking. And that is for people I pay £500 a day for.

Is there still that sort of money in IT contracting these days with the recession etc....? I work in IT and have done for about 20 years now, i thought the old days of £500 a day contracts were long gone, not that i am looking I am happy where i am at the moment.

OP apologies for wandering off topic slightly.

 

[Z4 Beemer]

That is an interesting perspective. I recon I can code web applications better than most of our web development team, but ask me to sit in front of a computer and write from scratch and I couldn't remember all the exact syntax. For example, my DB connection strings in PHP.... used them 1000's of times but never written them, just copy/pasted.

How very true! I also can never remember the exact syntax of mysql_connect or fetch_assoc functions and under the pressure of an interview things can feel even worse. We never ask any candidates to write code for these exact reasons but instead ask them to give examples in order to determine their programming experience. They might be technically brilliant at programming but have no people or team-working skills.

 

[sp3ctre]

I hope flimper doesn't mind this going a bit OT but I find this conversation fascinating (yeah, I need to get out more!)

 

[gannet]

We get their cvs and select for interview based on that - we then have a 'programmer test' which asks them to write a program after the interview. 90% can't do the test or are very poor - one person even just simply walked out

We now have a pre-screening test, which asks some fairly basic questions - of which all should be straight forward to a graduate programmer. Candidates either cannot read or simply don't know the answers to the test so leave them blank

beggars belief really :roll:

That is an interesting perspective. I recon I can code web applications better than most of our web development team, but ask me to sit in front of a computer and write from scratch and I couldn't remember all the exact syntax. For example, my DB connection strings in PHP.... used them 1000's of times but never written them, just copy/pasted.

I fell foul of that once (rookie mistake, I know) in a test... had done v.well in the interview but fell at the last hurdle. Several years on I now work for that same company (went for a different job), but still recon I can do better at web application programming than most of the team we have here.

In the real world I have never held an interview and expected someone to be able to hack an app up using a specific framework or technology. I don't think you're going to encounter many interviewers who would expect this without at least giving you access to documentation via the web/man pages etc. I mean, this is how we do it in the real world. The tests I tend to give are more (in my opinion) basic tasks such as reversing a string. It is amazing how many applicants at "senior" level fold even given a simple task such as this. Once we progress beyond that level we tend to spend a couple of hours pair-programming (ping-pong TDD style where one writes a failing test, the other makes it pass) on a real feature for a customer. Now this is the very best way to interview a candidate in my opinion. Also, asking for their github account can shed a lot of light on what kind of developer they are i.e. which open source projects they maintain or contribute to. In my opinion this kicks the CVs ass into touch.

I should clarify I think - we do not expect a program as such - pseudocode would suffice. What we look for is the approach to the problem, and whether or not the solution they produce (or start to produce) would work. We work in Delphi but do not expect that of anyone who starts to work with us - a good programmer can pick up any language pretty quickly.

There are NO time limits set in either of our tests - it becomes pretty obvious whether they can do it or not or even if they have an idea. They are also warned they may receive a test as part of the interview before they come.

yeah and sorry flimper for the thread divert

 

[Anonymous]

flimper, best of luck on the job front

 

[flimper]

No probs, it's still an interesting read! Thanks Kryton

 

[Dav the wheel nut]

How about becoming an independant unauthorised public services pharmaceutical distributor :wink:

 

[sars]

Good luck and hope you do find something soon.

Over the last 18 months I have recruited two mechanical design engineers, the first a graduate, will take 3 years to develop and the second has many years of experience but not in our quite specialised field of Safety Relief Valves and will thus take a while to become productive. The most starting part of the recruitment process was not how many foreign Engineers applied, those who have done a post graduate qualification here and haven't left, but the complete lack of good home grown engineers.

I would advise anybody who is doing A levels at present, wanting to go to university, to do either a mechanical or chemical engineering degree, there just isn't enough to go round and you will always be in demand.

 

[RichardG]

I'm not at degree level, but I am a time served maintenance technician, we were told when we were starting give it 10 years and you will be able to name your price as no one is training anymore, well the biggest problem I'm finding in trying to get UK based work now is that the salary level is pathetic you see firms wanting everything under the sun and then offering less money than I was earning 15 years ago, I know so many people who have left the profession due to this and the lack of respect by academic managers who seem to think because you get our hands dirty you must be stupid forgetting the fact you have spent 4 -5 years training holding down a full time job at the same time as going to college. The trades and the skills are dieing as everything with the exception of software gets dummed down, which is just getting ridiculous with companies employing software engineers to write machine programs and prove how clever they are, which is great, but they never go out into the field, that's left us jacks of all trades who are getting lost in the so many different systems we are expected to know. I see companies where the youngest technicians are like me at 40+ no one is coming in when are they going realise if they want to continue they have to invest in training and not a 6 week course where by you claim to be fully qualified afterwards.

rant over

Anyway back on topic, hope you find what you are looking for Flimper

 

[flimper]

Good news, I have got myself a junior accounts assistant role Ultra low money but 70 people went for it so that's a positive, also I look at as being paid to train. Now have to learn how to make a nice cup of tea!

 

[gannet]

woohoo - congrats and good luck

 

[ZermattV]

I would advise anybody who is doing A levels at present, wanting to go to university, to do either a mechanical or chemical engineering degree, there just isn't enough to go round and you will always be in demand.

X 2 ............. not the easiest degrees in the world but really glad i did chem eng ......... great option for the science minded.... best bit is you don't need to get a PhD to get a fulfilling technical position.


glad to hear your news flimper.