UKPC - fined for parking over line ...
- Thread starter pvr
- Start date
Unfortunately I was away at the time and Mrs pvr filled in an online appeal, I would have preferred to have done the standard letter as they know that if you get those from money supermarket, it would get thrown out at popla level.
I have to try this at popla now.
I have to try this at popla now.
Z4M-2006 said:
Exactly to my point of appeals process or pay up. Pointless doing the ignore and hope route and ending up in court with a jig fine, loads of added costs and massive wasted effort.
Do not ignore a Parking Charge Notice.
Much of the information in this thread is out of date, or anecdotal "friend of a friend" stories.
Many of the parking enforcement companies are now going to court (I know - I have had the court papers), and in a number of cases they are winning, including reclaiming the £27+ costs involved in a POPLA appeal.
The law changed in early 2013 (when the Parking On Private Land Act was enacted), and the parking enforcement companies can now legally go after the registered keeper if they do not state who the driver was at the time.
If you do not wish to pay, or you want to challenge a charge, then you must follow the correct appeals process, and you really should not ignore any paperwork that you receive.
As an absolute minimum, you MUST read the "newbies" FAQs at:
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/forumdisplay.php?f=163
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showforum=60
Much of the information in this thread is out of date, or anecdotal "friend of a friend" stories.
Many of the parking enforcement companies are now going to court (I know - I have had the court papers), and in a number of cases they are winning, including reclaiming the £27+ costs involved in a POPLA appeal.
The law changed in early 2013 (when the Parking On Private Land Act was enacted), and the parking enforcement companies can now legally go after the registered keeper if they do not state who the driver was at the time.
If you do not wish to pay, or you want to challenge a charge, then you must follow the correct appeals process, and you really should not ignore any paperwork that you receive.
As an absolute minimum, you MUST read the "newbies" FAQs at:
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/forumdisplay.php?f=163
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showforum=60
No such statute. I think you mean Chapter 2, Section 56 and Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. All this actually changed was that correspondence relating to the INVOICE can now be lawfully directed at the registered keeper if they do not supply the driver's details within 28 days. The civil action that needs to be taken in common law to then enforce the alleged contract and recover unpaid fees or demonstrable losses remains un-changed.
If you have knowingly not paid for a ticket in a car park for no good reason then I believe you should pay 'something' to set the record straight, but when they ask for £85 because they failed to recover less than 85p from someone? I'm sorry but this is a scam all day long and society in general should simply not tolerate it. I also hate the ones where parking is free but they try to claim large sums if you stay over 2 hours. If parking there is free then there is no loss (usually supermarket car parks in the suburbs are never full).
I've only ever had one such letter and I think it was from Parking Eye. I replied to their letter stating that unfortunately no records exist of who the driver was on that day and that therefore I was unaware of any such contract existing, any services having been provided or any monies due to them. I then offered to investigate the matter further for them and stated my Ts and Cs with a rate of pay that they would be liable for should they wish to accept this offer. They chose to cancel the invoice. I'm not saying this will work for everyone, but I am one of those people who would cut their nose off to spite their face! I would probably risk higher costs just to prove a point and be able to lie straight in bed at night. I don't recommend to anyone that they behave like me - I just can't help it!
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/9155/guidance-unpaid-parking-charges.pdf
Don't deliberately avoid paying for parking. Do challenge extortionate speculative invoices as unreasonable and offer them reasonable sums instead.
I have submitted the popla appeal now, based on all those points re charge not in relation to cost incurred (free car park !!), crossing the final line at the parking bays next to a wall would "cost" £100 ??? - what is all that about.
I followed the moneysavingexport letter advice of challenging signage, inappropriate fees, them not being the owner of the land and so on. I supplied a picture as well where you can see how bad the signs are and not visible if you are negotiating a 3 way junction to enter the car park - you don't look up / away from the road to see a sign amongst others somewhere on the outside wall of the parking garage.
Will see how it works out.
I followed the moneysavingexport letter advice of challenging signage, inappropriate fees, them not being the owner of the land and so on. I supplied a picture as well where you can see how bad the signs are and not visible if you are negotiating a 3 way junction to enter the car park - you don't look up / away from the road to see a sign amongst others somewhere on the outside wall of the parking garage.
Will see how it works out.
GreyZed said:
The thing you have done here though is to challenge it. The error many seem to make is to ignore all letters and assume they will just go away, which these days they are not so often.
As an aside I'm interested in what you would do if you were a supermarket owner with a car park. Instance. In Lichfield there is a supermarket that is close to town. Without the 2 hour free period then the car park is rammed solid by 9am with office workers for the city and no shoppers can get in. Barriers are not possible due to road access and have when tried been damaged by cars trying to get in and out. They tried a pay machine at fair rates for excess periods and people didn't pay.
How would you practically control it without sizeable penalties for office workers abusing the facility?
I'm not in any way defending PCN companies, just looking from the retailers perspective.
pvr said:toolmanchris said:toolmanchris said:Please be carefull. I had a similar thing with stopping on the service roads at the local airport. Was served with a "Fine" of £100 for parking but the latest advice is not to ignore these things.
Try searching on the MoneySavingExpert site as there is lots of information on there. I am currently appealing to the Parking companys trade association as apparently they are getting braver and actually taking some people to small claims court and sending baliff's etc
Dont want to be a scaremonger but please be sure of your facts before deciding to ignore
Just got the decision back from the appeal and it has been upheld so nothing to pay. Hope you have managed to get it sorted
What was the main appeal reason which won it? My reading of those websites seems to boil down to the actual loss element.
Sorry for the late reply just seen this - yes it was the fact that they failed to give a breakdown of their costs and could not justify the amount they were charging as a result.
Speaking as a "keyboard warrior" I will share real life experiences.
Members of my family have now received a total of 5 tickets.
No. 1. Ticket flipped over whilst parked. Request by parking company £90.
Course of action. Asked for common sense to prevail.
Response. Speculative invoice increased to £160
Result. Ignored 4 or 5 pseudo legal bullshit claims and eventually they moved on and set upon easier prey.
No 2. Free car park for 90 minutes.
Course of action. Completely ignored on the basis free means no loss to parking company.
Response. One begging letter.
Result. My wife is richer than if she had caved in to wholly unreasonable demands.
No 3. Free car park and my son accidentally dared to plant a wheel ON the white line.
Course of action. Completely ignored on the basis free means no loss to parking company.
Response. Four or five begging letters increasing the demand to £160 then decreasing it to £40. Chose to completely ignore.
Result. My son is richer than if he had caved in to wholly unreasonable demands.
No 4. Told my wife not to pay because the signposting in the car park did/does not meet with BPA standards and the operator cannot therefore approach DVLA for her home address.
Result. No contact from company in 3 months.
No 5. Told myself not to pay because the signposting in the car park did/does not meet with BPA standards and the operator cannot therefore approach DVLA for my home address.
Result. On going but diddly squat will come of this as above.
Now from the above it might appear some of us are serial offenders but I can assure you we ordinarily always pay our dues to park. However in the cited examples please bear in mind there has been no loss to the companies listed above at case 1, 2, and 3. Furthermore they have have no legal right whatsoever to "fine" you. They cannot send in the bailiff's without a court order which in itself need a court conviction and debt collectors have zero powers. All barr the first case are since the "new rules" came into being. These new rules changed NOTHING except to whom the "fine" can now be addressed. POPLA is actually costing the parking companies and contrary to some mis-information on the subject, very few parking companies are winning anything at court.
Google search long enough and you will find a Word file listing all court cases over the last 3 years (if I remember correctly) and in reality the usual culprits are getting nowhere with this speculative invoice business model.
Case 4 and 5 highlights how we abide by the law whereas many parking companies simply do not. In other words mugs are paying up against illegally issued tickets. This is how these parking companies operate and why they have a never ending stream of willing victims.
This is the last input I'm giving to this thread and I hope it proves useful from a real world perspective.
Members of my family have now received a total of 5 tickets.
No. 1. Ticket flipped over whilst parked. Request by parking company £90.
Course of action. Asked for common sense to prevail.
Response. Speculative invoice increased to £160
Result. Ignored 4 or 5 pseudo legal bullshit claims and eventually they moved on and set upon easier prey.
No 2. Free car park for 90 minutes.
Course of action. Completely ignored on the basis free means no loss to parking company.
Response. One begging letter.
Result. My wife is richer than if she had caved in to wholly unreasonable demands.
No 3. Free car park and my son accidentally dared to plant a wheel ON the white line.
Course of action. Completely ignored on the basis free means no loss to parking company.
Response. Four or five begging letters increasing the demand to £160 then decreasing it to £40. Chose to completely ignore.
Result. My son is richer than if he had caved in to wholly unreasonable demands.
No 4. Told my wife not to pay because the signposting in the car park did/does not meet with BPA standards and the operator cannot therefore approach DVLA for her home address.
Result. No contact from company in 3 months.
No 5. Told myself not to pay because the signposting in the car park did/does not meet with BPA standards and the operator cannot therefore approach DVLA for my home address.
Result. On going but diddly squat will come of this as above.
Now from the above it might appear some of us are serial offenders but I can assure you we ordinarily always pay our dues to park. However in the cited examples please bear in mind there has been no loss to the companies listed above at case 1, 2, and 3. Furthermore they have have no legal right whatsoever to "fine" you. They cannot send in the bailiff's without a court order which in itself need a court conviction and debt collectors have zero powers. All barr the first case are since the "new rules" came into being. These new rules changed NOTHING except to whom the "fine" can now be addressed. POPLA is actually costing the parking companies and contrary to some mis-information on the subject, very few parking companies are winning anything at court.
Google search long enough and you will find a Word file listing all court cases over the last 3 years (if I remember correctly) and in reality the usual culprits are getting nowhere with this speculative invoice business model.
Case 4 and 5 highlights how we abide by the law whereas many parking companies simply do not. In other words mugs are paying up against illegally issued tickets. This is how these parking companies operate and why they have a never ending stream of willing victims.
This is the last input I'm giving to this thread and I hope it proves useful from a real world perspective.
Z4M-2006 said:
The government started down the path of kicking these parasites into touch and followed Scotland's lead and stopped them from clamping via the the enactment of the Protection of Freedoms Bill. Unfortunately the clamping shitehawks lobbied big style about their so called 'industry' and companies going bust/loss of jobs etc. Good enough for them IMO but the government caved and threw them a bone in the form of the right to direct their speculative invoicing towards registered keepers where certain conditions are met. The new Act of Parliament does not give them the right to be paid though. As I posted earlier, because they are sending out invoices not fines they would have to pursue and win a civil claim against you under the common law of contracts to force you to pay them anything legally. If absolutely everyone who got a letter like this challenged it and refused to recognise the contract in law these companies would cease to exist very rapidly as their income stream would dry up overnight.
cj10jeeper said:
Your Lichfield example is a site specific problem which the supermarket owner would need to deal with due to their decision to take that site for their business. I do not accept that pay and display and/or barriers would not be effective. I know of at least 2 similar examples where the supermarket has installed pay and display with a ticket that you peel a section off and get refunded or partially refunded at the till when you pay for your shopping. One is in Windermere where parking is always difficult and it seems to work well by preventing people parking there all day but ensuring you can get a space for an hour or two to do your shopping when you need to.
I don't mind paying reasonable sums to park and I accept that some locations have specific issues that need controls to be put in place to manage them but this is no justification for the spread of the Parking Eye and other similar extortion rackets to every car park in every corner of the country. Many supermarket car parks up here in the North East have never been full since the stores were built yet we have 2 hour parking limits and excess time charges! FFS!
And when you end up with a CCJ (which affects your ability to get a job, mortgage, etc) you will be very sorry that you did so.Ant said:
Yes, many of these speculative invoices are issued in the hope that the driver will just pay up, but also many of the parking enforcement companies are going to court, and while people like BRC may seem to be getting away with ignoring the charge notices for now, there is no guarantee that court papers won't be served many months, or even years, after the event. Not having gone through the correct challenge process may well come back to bite them.
One more web site for very useful information on this subject (including details of many of the court cases which the parking enforcement companies have lost) is the Parking Prankster.
http://www.parking-prankster.com/
Ant said:
This really is a silly way to go as has been said below and above by many people.
Over the last month I've sent more than 1,000 borrowers to a debt collection agency. The selection was amongst other things based on those who failed to respond to any letters.
The DCA will add charges and all back interest accrued and if court papers are ignored will in 95% of cases end up with CCJ's and over time wage attachments, bailiffs, etc. we can issues bulk court proceedings like a sausage machine and its a simple automated process....
At any stage those who respond will be dealt with appropriately and very fair arrangements made.
Of course not parking notices, but same basics...
Point is ignoring letters is a stupid way to go. Appeal, win or lose, then pay up or celebrate.
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