UKIP. Would You?

[ronk]

I think they all have their snouts in the trough - no matter what the colour of the party flag!

Sorry to be so simplistic.

 

[Finisterre]

It's great that you are here and talking sense to us here in England. You are Dutch and as I have spent much time in your country and know many of your people I know you are much cleverer than us. Most dutch people speak better English than the English and that's a fact and it's a shameful one.

But as you have noticed we are a country full off left wing communist morons who have been brainwashed by the last labour government. And most of our teachers in state schools in England are union members who aren't really interested in educating children. I know some primary school teachers and I wouldn't let them pack my bags at Sainbury's let alone entrust the education of a child to them.

Speak for yourself, I am smarter than most Dutch people. pvr excluded...

You say the country is full of left wing communist morons, what makes you say that? It has been shown that the right tend to do less well in intelligence tests.

Teachers need to be in a union because unions provide the legal cover required to deal with malicious allegations. Most teachers will have allegations made against them at some point in their career.

As someone who has worked in higher education I have written quite a few references for comp sci graduates entering the teaching profession and I don't recognise your characterisation of teachers. It strikes me that you only know a few unusually unacademic and unprofessional teachers.

 

[original guvnor]

It amuses me when people moan about their politicians. The political class is no different to any other walk of life. It is human nature at work. Nothing more, nothing less.

The idea that somehow our politicians are worse or more corrupt than any other country's is laughable. It doesn't matter what system - capitalist, socialist, communist or whatever - politicians get caught up in scandals/corruption/abuses of power. It's because power is a strong pull and humans like to have power over other humans and they take liberties and risks to get it and to line their own nest. Our current system doesn't help but the idea we can sort the system and get a new breed of politicians we can be proud of is ridiculous. What we can do is change the environment - pay them a proper salary, stop them doing other jobs, etc.

Chris - I'm glad you try to take an interest but the majority don't. They are more interested in who is on x-factor. The country is full of sheepeople.

OG your posts appear to "understand" the politicians and bash the proles.

We are all either human and fallible are all stupid lazy and prone to dishonesty.

My point is also that career politicians have a clearer view of the nuances of what is going on and how each issue is related to party goals and personal agenda. In the same way that I dont expect to understand in intricate detail how a plumber works - I hope to pay him and hes fixes my toilet, I also would hope to be able to to vote for a politician and be able to trust that he can do his job.

Imagine how disappointed you would be if you paid a plumber to fix your loo and he took your money and built someone else's fence and then told you that he had fulfilled the spirit of your request, and every time for 30 years similar things happened.

Unfortunately my sense, (and I appreciate that this is coloured by the media) is that if all our politicians were plumbers, we would all have broken toilets. I am sure there are some great ones out there, but the ones on TV, or in Blackpool fit that description reasonably well imho.

That's rather naive. A plumber is trained at college and does exams in being a plumber. Being a plumber is all about one trade. A politician is seeking to represent, to be a leader. There is no professional training, no skill or trade. You also wouldn't employ a plumber you knew nothing at all about, or if you had no idea if they had any formal training or not. Yet, the electorate tend to do that at every election.

I'm not coming at this from a partisan position. The same applies to red, blue and yellow.

If I had a £1 for every time I'd heard someone moan "I didn't vote for them to do that" but then when you ask them if they'd ever read the manifesto prior to the election it's always the same answer.

 

[pvr]

Speak for yourself, I am smarter than most Dutch people. pvr excluded...

Best quote so far

 

[Stuart Truman]

If I had a £1 for every time I'd heard someone moan "I didn't vote for them to do that" but then when you ask them if they'd ever read the manifesto prior to the election it's always the same answer.

So do you actually read their manifestos?

 

[original guvnor]

I have done Stu on regular occasions but then again I studied Politics at school and have always had an interest in the subject. I even bought the odd one or two!

 

[chris g]

That's rather naive. A plumber is trained at college and does exams in being a plumber. Being a plumber is all about one trade. A politician is seeking to represent, to be a leader. There is no professional training, no skill or trade. You also wouldn't employ a plumber you knew nothing at all about, or if you had no idea if they had any formal training or not. Yet, the electorate tend to do that at every election.


ah well the niave is being led by un unskilled and incapable, I think we agree.

 

[Stuart Truman]

I have done Stu on regular occasions but then again I studied Politics at school and have always had an interest in the subject. I even bought the odd one or two!

Fair play to you. I've not, but then as they always U turn on them, or come up with something more important that wasn't actually in them, they seem more of a guideline than a rule (to quote Capt Barbosa from Pirates...)

 

[JaEdBa]

You say the country is full of left wing communist morons, what makes you say that? It has been shown that the right tend to do less well in intelligence tests.

where has that been shown? there has, for some reason, always been a strong link between academia and the left.

clearly though, they fail to understand the link between self respect, motivation, hard work and subsequent reward.

 

[pvr]

Academics don't have common sense. That is what my wife tells me all the time at least

 

[exdos]

With regard to our so-called democracy: the only chance the electorate have to participate in the political process at the general election is to vote for a single candidate roughly once every five years. Once the MPs have been elected, they take no further instruction from their constituency electorate: instead they follow their party whip. The Party-line is dictated by the party sponsors and from lobbying by corporates. The corporates and lobbyists care not which party is in power because all parties can be bought by their money. This problem seems to have got worse over the past 2 decades and the electorate has now realised that voting is largely irrelevant to the outcome; hence the fall in turnout at elections.

I would suggest that rather than not bothering to vote at the next general election, disaffected voters should join together in an orchestrated campaign and spoil their ballot papers in the same way by writing "Guy Fawkes X" on the paper. Such action would produce a higher turnout with a large percentage of spoilt papers, showing that the electorate actually want to vote, but are dissatisfied with what is on offer. Until such time that the political parties cannot be unduly influenced by the corporates and lobbyists, the electorate will feel more and more marginalised.

 

[The Badger]

Ok EU gives us all in Europe certain rights and regulations and that's fantastic !!! However ! Have you been to Spain or Portugal on holiday and seen the state of the pavements and roads ? Do you think for one minute you would be able to have a succsesful claim against the Spanish or Portugease Councils for say a "broken ankle" NO WAY ! But here in the U.K. You would have a £100,000.00 law. Suite !!!!! So why are we so compliant !!!!! That's our problem "stiff british upper lip" 85% of Europe don't give a s**t about the EEC rules but of course.... we do because we are the honourable british..... Let's get out of Europe and see how we go - we have managed ok without the Euro so far and I am sure we could rejoin if it all goes tits up !!! Let's grow a pair of hairy ones !!

 

[original guvnor]

Some valid points on here.

Party political funding - surely each party that gets more than a certain number of votes should get state funding. In other words the "big three" should all get the same, which would be enough to carry out all of their daily activities as well as fund election campaigns including press advertising/party political broadcasts etc. But so far attempts to do this have been scuppered by lack of consensus and public opposition to the idea.

Manifestos - yes of course sometimes governments do things which weren't in there. Often though there is good reason for it. After all the manifesto is just a snap shot in time and cannot predict how circumstances will unfold over 5 years. The last Labour manifesto for example could not have predicted the financial crash and some of the necessary outcomes.

MP's - we need a radical overhaul of the system and I'm afraid that means paying them a lot more, sorting out their sitting times and hours but at the same time clamping down much harder on what they can and cannot claim and removing from them the ability for them to set their wages.

Corporate lobbying - corporate lobbying is entirely justifiable and will always happen. After all businesses don't get votes but the policies of a government directly affect them and their employees. Therefore businesses need a voice and a channel to lobby government. Quite how that should and should not be done is obviously an area that needs attention though.

 

[Finisterre]

You say the country is full of left wing communist morons, what makes you say that? It has been shown that the right tend to do less well in intelligence tests.

where has that been shown? there has, for some reason, always been a strong link between academia and the left.

clearly though, they fail to understand the link between self respect, motivation, hard work and subsequent reward.

start here
http://www.livescience.com/18132-intelligence-social-conservatism-racism.html

if you look at Kolberg's ethical thinking it makes sense, simple people like simple solutions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Kohlberg%27s_stages_of_moral_development

 

[tombar]

I always thought that parties whose main programme are HOT topics like these are parties which always appeal to the less gifted up there
Stop the free benefits completly . make people pick up rubbish and other things to do to earn benefits. council has to get expensive companies to do these jobs and im sure it will discourage many from claiming

 

[exdos]

The last Labour manifesto for example could not have predicted the financial crash and some of the necessary outcomes.

I strongly disagree with that point. When Labour took over from John Major's Tory government in 1997, the UK Economy was in the best shape that it had been in for decades. But that wasn't enough for Gordon Clown: he imposed a windfall tax on the pensions, which has crippled them now. That was predictable. He sold a good proportion of our gold reserves when gold was at a low point, which was considered by many at the time as stupid. He also had a large windfall from selling the 3G mobile phone licences to the major phone providers. So Clown inherited the UK Economy in good shape, he had a load of cash (from pension, gold and phones) and then we had a credit boom on top and a financial services sector operating "Casino investments", that looked like a toxic mix to me and others at the time and the fact that it has all ended badly was completely predictable.

Corporate lobbying - corporate lobbying is entirely justifiable and will always happen. After all businesses don't get votes but the policies of a government directly affect them and their employees. Therefore businesses need a voice and a channel to lobby government. Quite how that should and should not be done is obviously an area that needs attention though.

Sure, corporate lobbying is required, but instead of this being done behind closed doors with money passing to the parties in return for acting on the will of the corporates, the corporates should be required to present their cases to all-party committees in open chamber, much like the Select Committees do. Simple.

 

[JaEdBa]

You say the country is full of left wing communist morons, what makes you say that? It has been shown that the right tend to do less well in intelligence tests.

where has that been shown? there has, for some reason, always been a strong link between academia and the left.

clearly though, they fail to understand the link between self respect, motivation, hard work and subsequent reward.

start here
http://www.livescience.com/18132-intelligence-social-conservatism-racism.html

if you look at Kolberg's ethical thinking it makes sense, simple people like simple solutions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Kohlberg%27s_stages_of_moral_development

hmmm, so you've made a direct link from right wing views to racism from how I interpret the opening few paragraphs of the first article. seems a leap too far in my opinion.

 

[original guvnor]

Sure, corporate lobbying is required, but instead of this being done behind closed doors with money passing to the parties in return for acting on the will of the corporates, the corporates should be required to present their cases to all-party committees in open chamber, much like the Select Committees do. Simple.

Oh crikey what a bureaucratic nightmare that suggestion would be. Can you imagine the paralysis at the heart of government?

Lobbying has precisely one aim - to influence government policy. Therefore why should an opposition MP in a select committee have any say whatsoever in what the government of the day decides its policies should be?

A Select Committee is there to audit the work of government. It isn't there to decide who the elected government speaks to or decide on their policies.

 

[original guvnor]

The last Labour manifesto for example could not have predicted the financial crash and some of the necessary outcomes.

I strongly disagree with that point. When Labour took over from John Major's Tory government in 1997, the UK Economy was in the best shape that it had been in for decades. But that wasn't enough for Gordon Clown: he imposed a windfall tax on the pensions, which has crippled them now. That was predictable. He sold a good proportion of our gold reserves when gold was at a low point, which was considered by many at the time as stupid. He also had a large windfall from selling the 3G mobile phone licences to the major phone providers. So Clown inherited the UK Economy in good shape, he had a load of cash (from pension, gold and phones) and then we had a credit boom on top and a financial services sector operating "Casino investments", that looked like a toxic mix to me and others at the time and the fact that it has all ended badly was completely predictable.

I agree 110% on your analysis of Gordon Brown and his management of the UK economy.

What I meant was, that it isn't always possible for Governments to predict what will happen in their time in office at the point they write their manifesto. As Macmillan said "events dear boy, events". So you cannot expect everything they do in office to be contained in a manifesto that is probably written 6-12 months before the general election that elected them.

 

[Z4M-2006]

I fit the dynamic of a traditional labour supporter,and usually voted for them out of blind ignorance.

But as i have got older and realised that politicians are mostly much of a muchness with a different rosette,and cant find it in my heart to support any of them.

IMHO Gordon Brown did irreparable damage to the labour party as a whole.He will be remembered for being a feckless idiot with as much monetary control as a smackhead on dole day..