UKIP. Would You?

original guvnor said:
Gargybloke said:
The politicians have no mandate to do what they have done, never had, never will :headbang:
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Oh yes they have. It's called an election. The sad fact is that the majority of the "great" British public take no interest in politics. Most would struggle to name one policy of the party they voted for and many cannot name any cabinet ministers.

I've said all along you get the politicians you deserve. Take an interest, get active, VOTE (because 40% of us can't even be arsed to do that).

If you've done all that then you have a right to complain. If you haven't, well it's tough s**t, you have no right to an opinion. It's part of the something-for-nothing culture that pervades this country.
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Ok, can you point me to an election manifesto of the last 40 years then that says "We will allow unfettered mass immigration if you vote for us"?

I have always voted, but never for this and nobody else I know has.
 
original guvnor said:
Gargybloke said:
The politicians have no mandate to do what they have done, never had, never will :headbang:
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Oh yes they have. It's called an election. The sad fact is that the majority of the "great" British public take no interest in politics. Most would struggle to name one policy of the party they voted for and many cannot name any cabinet ministers.

I've said all along you get the politicians you deserve. Take an interest, get active, VOTE (because 40% of us can't even be arsed to do that).

If you've done all that then you have a right to complain. If you haven't, well it's tough s**t, you have no right to an opinion. It's part of the something-for-nothing culture that pervades this country.
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100% agree on voting but here's a question for you. If you dislike, intensely dislike, all three (or however many) options and there is no independent, what's the option?

My personal view is that you should be required to vote, but there should be an "abstain" option that allows the populace to register their dissatisfaction with the lot that are in power/standing for power. And if at least 51% of the voting population doesn't make a positive vote in favour of candidates they have no mandate and have to think again.

Electoral colleges to allow people to vote on who they want to stand for election locally should also happen and would help make people feel they know the candidate for whom they are putting their x in the box. That would get rid or party favourites being parachuted into safe seats where nobody has ever heard of them. In fact it would do away with the whole idea of a safe seat.
 
turkeys, Christmas, why did I think that?

actually I am not that disillusioned by the choices, they are bound to be unappetising because little is achievable and all the simple solutions promulgated by UKIP and others won't work.

Governing requires a steeped in history political class, leaving it to the likes of Galloway and Farage is bonkers.
 
From where I'm sitting seems like most scroungers and spongers in our society are the British themselves, maybe we should look at ourselves before stereotyping foreigners :wink:

Tim.
 
Stuart Truman said:
Like i said, let's keep the religion and the immigration separate. An immigrant willing to work twice as hard is unlikely to be anything to do with their religion (The majority of Eastern Europeans will be a denomination of Christian anyway.) it's far more to do with their work ethic compared to the locals. Also that a lot of the time they'll do the jobs the locals feel are beneath them.

As to home grown, I didn't say home grown Moslem, I said home grown religious extremists. Whether there, here in the UK or the US. Christian fundamentalists are as bad as any other, and often more blinkered.
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You say "locals" as if it's a dirty word. What's wrong with the inhabitants of a country having some expectation of what their job should be. That's why we have unions so that people aren't exploited and forced to work in an unfair environment.
Uncontrolled immigration is a way for the rich to exploit our nation and in a way print money. Own a business but want more staff who will undercut the "local" people? Then employ foreign people.
We can't in this country complain that we have so many teenagers unemployed when we have so many foreign people taking the jobs that these people would have done. Is an immigrant willing to work for half the money actually good for the working people of this country? I don't think so. It might be good for the business owner but it's not good for workers.
 
Gargybloke said:
original guvnor said:
Gargybloke said:
The politicians have no mandate to do what they have done, never had, never will :headbang:
Click to expand...

Oh yes they have. It's called an election. The sad fact is that the majority of the "great" British public take no interest in politics. Most would struggle to name one policy of the party they voted for and many cannot name any cabinet ministers.

I've said all along you get the politicians you deserve. Take an interest, get active, VOTE (because 40% of us can't even be arsed to do that).

If you've done all that then you have a right to complain. If you haven't, well it's tough s**t, you have no right to an opinion. It's part of the something-for-nothing culture that pervades this country.
Click to expand...

Ok, can you point me to an election manifesto of the last 40 years then that says "We will allow unfettered mass immigration if you vote for us"?

I have always voted, but never for this and nobody else I know has.
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Well for a start we don't have unfettered mass immigration. What we have is the freedom of movement for nationals of EU member states.

Secondly the Labour party manifesto of 1997 for example gave "High priority for enlargement of the European Union to include the countries of central and eastern Europe and Cyprus, and the institutional reforms necessary to make an enlarged Europe work more efficiently" By definition that means allowing the nationals of those countries to pass freely into the UK.

As I said, nobody reads the manifestos and then they claim they haven't been consulted. Do your research. If you don't, what right do you have to moan about things?

How many people know what was in the Maastrict treaty or Schengen for example (or knew we had an opt out on Schengen)?

I will remind you that if you want a say on our participation in this freedom of movement within the EU you must really vote Tory at the next election because, of the major political parties, they are the only ones committed to giving you an In/Out referendum on our membership of the EU.

I'm sorry to say but the vast majority of people in this country are too lazy and stupid to understand who they are voting for. That isn't the politicians fault.

Frankly the job of an MP is a shite one. Anybody with real talent would run a mile. Until we make the job more attractive in an effort to attract a better calibre of people then we'll get what we deserve. £70k for an MP, with that level of responsibility, is a rubbish wage. There are a lot of people in my company who get paid more than that, some with no staff reporting to them, let alone 100,000 constituents. It's a thankless job.
 
i do vote
and i try to understand what the politicians are trying to do

i dont accept your comment about people being lazy and stupid for not being able to understand the machinations of uk politics and eventually switching off

its hard - we have lives to live and we get jaded by lies, lies by omission, different agendas, and general dishonesty of career politicians or how the press portray them

its really hard to know what to read and who to believe .....
 
We've had champagne socialism, now it's time for some real ale conservatism. The EU is a left wing experiment that has failed. Not only that it is creating division, and that is exactly what the EU is trying to avoid.
Socialism in Europe has failed like communism failed half the population of the world. The problem is that all socialists really want communism does not work (fact). Even Marx, (Karl not Groucho) said socialism leads to communism.
Imagine if we were on the on the LadaForum, TrabantForum!!
So if you are driving round in you 3 litre sports car longing for a bit of Lenin then stop being so champagne socialistic.
 
Lightning87 said:
it looks like i've enterd a communist car forum over here,

you guys across the small pond, are still in youre happy homes, still thinking the world is stil nice and about peace and love, and that any imigrant is an enrichment to the culture....... you're eyes must me glued together with socialistsuperglue.

yes i'm dutch, the happy social liberals in that swampy little country. but a lot here is changing, we've seen a murderd polician ( with you guys probably compare with Hitler), and we have one under severe protection.
why because leftwing idiots, and muslim extremists want to kill him. and i dón't have any thing against muslims, i have a muslim mate from Bosnia. but he is not the type that wants to dictate what other people should and shouldn't because of believes.

when you go out to a foreigh country, don't you adopt their lifestile and habbits ? why don't they do it when they come te live overhere? so no sharia courts, no woman in burka's, no complaining about woman having the same rights etc.

and i thought most of you brits, were anti EU ( at least in the case of them becoming the USEU or EUSSR), but it seems you guys have more in commen with those guys than you might even think.
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It's great that you are here and talking sense to us here in England. You are Dutch and as I have spent much time in your country and know many of your people I know you are much cleverer than us. Most dutch people speak better English than the English and that's a fact and it's a shameful one. But as you have noticed we are a country full off left wing communist morons who have been brainwashed by the last labour government. And most of our teachers in state schools in England are union members who aren't really interested in educating children. I know some primary school teachers and I wouldn't let them pack my bags at Sainbury's let alone entrust the education of a child to them.
 
It amuses me when people moan about their politicians. The political class is no different to any other walk of life. It is human nature at work. Nothing more, nothing less.

The idea that somehow our politicians are worse or more corrupt than any other country's is laughable. It doesn't matter what system - capitalist, socialist, communist or whatever - politicians get caught up in scandals/corruption/abuses of power. It's because power is a strong pull and humans like to have power over other humans and they take liberties and risks to get it and to line their own nest. Our current system doesn't help but the idea we can sort the system and get a new breed of politicians we can be proud of is ridiculous. What we can do is change the environment - pay them a proper salary, stop them doing other jobs, etc.

Chris - I'm glad you try to take an interest but the majority don't. They are more interested in who is on x-factor. The country is full of sheepeople.
 
original guvnor said:
Stuart Truman said:
Zeld4 said:
The EU is a left wing experiment that has failed.
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Interesting comment about it being left wing. It was a conservative government under Ted Heath that took us into the EU...
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Yes but Ted Heath was probably the most left wing Tory ever. :)
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I think you're forgetting Ryan Giggs! :oops:
 
Stuart Truman said:
The way to deal with this is to change the UK benefit laws to state that you can't claim unless you've been resident in the uk for 10yrs and make that applicable to everyone. The loophole that's being exploited is that any eu citizen is entitled to the benefits of the country they reside in. If our existing laws were tightened up it would stop this in its tracks yet genuine citizens of the uk of whatever colour or background would have a safety net.

If you were to go to France, you could claim their benefits under their laws.

Alternatively state that you can claim the benefits of your home nation. Romanian, no benefits in Romania, no benefits here either.
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That final comment is one of the most obvious and, probably, workable solutions. Not only should it be the same benefits you are entitled to in your home state it should be at the same rate too i.e. €20/week unemployment payment in wherever then that's what you're entitled to here too.
 
My party manifesto.....

Let the people come here and claim our benefits....but make a charge back to their government. And if I move to Poland and claim benefits, let them charge our government.
 
But the source country has no mean of enforcing the benefit rules, i.e. check that you applied for a job and went for interviews etc.
 
Oh, and by the way, as a Dutch citizen living here I have no rights to vote in NL nor in the UK, so buggered from all sides :D
 
original guvnor said:
It amuses me when people moan about their politicians. The political class is no different to any other walk of life. It is human nature at work. Nothing more, nothing less.

The idea that somehow our politicians are worse or more corrupt than any other country's is laughable. It doesn't matter what system - capitalist, socialist, communist or whatever - politicians get caught up in scandals/corruption/abuses of power. It's because power is a strong pull and humans like to have power over other humans and they take liberties and risks to get it and to line their own nest. Our current system doesn't help but the idea we can sort the system and get a new breed of politicians we can be proud of is ridiculous. What we can do is change the environment - pay them a proper salary, stop them doing other jobs, etc.

Chris - I'm glad you try to take an interest but the majority don't. They are more interested in who is on x-factor. The country is full of sheepeople.
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OG your posts appear to "understand" the politicians and bash the proles.

We are all either human and fallible are all stupid lazy and prone to dishonesty.

My point is also that career politicians have a clearer view of the nuances of what is going on and how each issue is related to party goals and personal agenda. In the same way that I dont expect to understand in intricate detail how a plumber works - I hope to pay him and hes fixes my toilet, I also would hope to be able to to vote for a politician and be able to trust that he can do his job.

Imagine how disappointed you would be if you paid a plumber to fix your loo and he took your money and built someone else's fence and then told you that he had fulfilled the spirit of your request, and every time for 30 years similar things happened.

Unfortunately my sense, (and I appreciate that this is coloured by the media) is that if all our politicians were plumbers, we would all have broken toilets. I am sure there are some great ones out there, but the ones on TV, or in Blackpool fit that description reasonably well imho.
 
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