UK Gov Zero-Emission Vehicle mandate - discuss

M

mcbutler

Veteran
 Plymouth
Hi all,
So - the Zero-Emission Vehicle mandate being introduced by UK gov in 2024 will force all dealers selling new cars in the UK to make EV's at least 22% of their total annual sales or face fines etc, rising to 50% by 2028 and 80% by 2030!
We see the end of legends like the Ford Fiesta and Focus this year and large brands like Volvo binning all ICE vehicle production well before our UK gov 100% EV's only deadline of 2030.
Many large brands have already ceased all investment and research on ICE engines;
Cadillac
Mercedes
Stelantis (chrysler, citroen, peugeot, fiat)
Jaguar
Volvo
Ford Europe
General motors
Audi
Does this mean the end of supercar sales in the UK from next year? after all if Mclaren are producing a limited 700 vehicle run (the 700LT) they are not going to specially design 170 (ish) EV versions are they!!
Shell have started replacing forecourts with large capacity EV charging stations..
So as demand for petrol/diesel drops the economics of sale dictate that petrol/diesel wil rise rapidly in price as demand drops and petrol stations try to pay their bills.

So lets discuss fellas, its an interesting and pressing subject....
 
mcbutler said:
So lets discuss fellas, its an interesting and pressing subject....
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IMO it's an uninteresting and depressing subject...
Don't want an EV, can't afford an EV, hate EVs. There...discussed! :lol:
 
The engine is the soul of a car. EVs have no soul, and not even that good an answer to the problem at hand.

Sure they accelerate fast, but that gets dull pretty quickly, and beyond that, they’re just s**t.

Invest in hydrogen, synthetic fuel etc. History will not be kind to this motoring folly IMHO.
 
The like of Mclaren, Ferrari etc has exemptions due to low volumes.

I still don’t think the 2030 deadline will happen and the German manufacturers are starting to rebel and want to look into synthetic fuels.
 
Worcester_spoon said:
Sure they accelerate fast, but that gets dull pretty quickly, and beyond that, they’re just s**t.
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If only we had a 'like' button!
LIKE! :thumbsup:
 
EV's are one of the biggest scams going at the moment imo, but when I look at the take-up here in NL I realise it's inevitable that ICE's will probably become a thing of the past.
Personally I would favour a soft hybrid using synthetic fuel if that ever became a viable long-term option.
No range anxiety, lighter, retaining some semblance of an engine 'soul' and noise, driving enjoyment as well as fantastic economy. Nothing not to like and everything to compete credibly against EV's apart peraps from CO2 emissions.
But then weigh up the carbon footprint including the production requirements (double that of an ICE car) and end-disposal phase of an EV as well as the power generation to obtain the electricity to run the fkg thing and you realise that claiming EV's are greener is a total nonsense!
We've all been royally 'had' by false/unfounded policy implementation and deception on a grand scale!
 
I have a BMW i4. It’s jolly fast. But on the weekend, when the sun’s out (or even if it’s just not raining), I’ll take the Z4 out every time. It’s visceral, it’s . . . just more fun.
 
Chris_D said:
EV's are one of the biggest scams going at the moment imo, but when I look at the take-up here in NL I realise it's inevitable that ICE's will probably become a thing of the past.
Personally I would favour a soft hybrid using synthetic fuel if that ever became a viable long-term option.
No range anxiety, lighter, retaining some semblance of an engine 'soul' and noise, driving enjoyment as well as fantastic economy. Nothing not to like and everything to compete credibly against EV's apart peraps from CO2 emissions.
But then weigh up the carbon footprint including the production requirements (double that of an ICE car) and end-disposal phase of an EV as well as the power generation to obtain the electricity to run the fkg thing and you realise that claiming EV's are greener is a total nonsense!
We've all been royally 'had' by false/unfounded policy implementation and deception on a grand scale!
Click to expand...
You know what? I agree 100% with that. :thumbsup:
Governments just 'kicking the can down the road' AGAIN! Move the pollution somewhere else and re-define it as some other bollox like 'carbon capture', then we can be all 'holier than thou' attitude. There is no hope for the human race if GW is really as bad as they say IMO.
They will never be able to change attitudes, and more importantly, make changes to the economics to work for the majority in a short enough timescale. Feck me, my local Council work in decades when it comes to changing a street lamp!

The worst part (or best) is that we all live in a democracy. If no-one bought EVs, they would scrap the idea. You cannot force a democracy to do anything, otherwise it becomes a dictatorship!
 
Pondrew said:
Chris_D said:
EV's are one of the biggest scams going at the moment imo, but when I look at the take-up here in NL I realise it's inevitable that ICE's will probably become a thing of the past.
Personally I would favour a soft hybrid using synthetic fuel if that ever became a viable long-term option.
No range anxiety, lighter, retaining some semblance of an engine 'soul' and noise, driving enjoyment as well as fantastic economy. Nothing not to like and everything to compete credibly against EV's apart peraps from CO2 emissions.
But then weigh up the carbon footprint including the production requirements (double that of an ICE car) and end-disposal phase of an EV as well as the power generation to obtain the electricity to run the fkg thing and you realise that claiming EV's are greener is a total nonsense!
We've all been royally 'had' by false/unfounded policy implementation and deception on a grand scale!
Click to expand...
You know what? I agree 100% with that. :thumbsup:
Governments just 'kicking the can down the road' AGAIN! Move the pollution somewhere else and re-define it as some other bollox like 'carbon capture', then we can be all 'holier than thou' attitude. There is no hope for the human race if GW is really as bad as they say IMO.
They will never be able to change attitudes, and more importantly, make changes to the economics to work for the majority in a short enough timescale. Feck me, my local Council work in decades when it comes to changing a street lamp!

The worst part (or best) is that we all live in a democracy. If no-one bought EVs, they would scrap the idea. You cannot force a democracy to do anything, otherwise it becomes a dictatorship!
Click to expand...

Pondlife! Are we....*gasp* ..... *rubs eyes and re-reads* .... agreeing on something??
Falls over.
:lol:
 
I reckon too many negatives at present,
New EVs are still too expensive.
Charging infrastructure is still inadequate but improving but then once the infrastructure is in place I don't understand how thousands of EVs can be charged at the same time up and down the country without overwhelming the available charging stations, its not a 2 minute fill up and you're on your way.
Cost of home chargers are not cheap £400 to £600 to buy plus installation cost.
Advice I've read is to check your home wiring and fuse box to ensure it can cope with any extra load especially if using a granny cable.

Although I'm not a great fan of EVs I had a look at a BMW i3 recently as thinking of changing my Hyundai Kona and liked the i3 more than I thought I would although thats more to do with its contruction than it being electric, carbon tub, plastic body panels and aluminium parts to keep weight down, quite liked it.

Tim.
 
TitanTim said:
Charging infrastructure is still inadequate
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Oh not in my town. The Council have spent thousands (probably millions as they are not the best at fiscal responsibility) installing EV charging points into a small, disused area of the bus station car park! It is about as far away from the Town Centre as you could reasonably get and in the bus station complex! Why on earth would anyone want to drive to the bus station, charge their EV and then get on a diesel bus to go somewhere and pay twice for the privilege? THEY WOULDN'T, AND THEY DON'T!
The ONLY people who use buses in my area (probably most areas) have no choice as can't afford a car, let alone a £60k plus EV.
But that's not the point. The point is that our local Council has obviously had a "quota" from Central Gov which they had to meet. So they wasted (sorry invested) our local Council Tax on meeting that quota. Box ticked. Now vote for us again come May! :headbang:
The only vehicles I have seen parked in the "EV charging" part are taxis (all diesel piles of old shite) using it as a 'waiting area' and 'having a chat area'.
 
All interesting points of view.
Doing a small amount of research I have found EV's coming to market for $11000 from a company called BYD in China!! Before we slate China BMW have recently moved most SUV production to the 'Great wall Motor Company' in China and they make most car components anyway.
Has anyone seen the MG Cyberster anticipated to be around £40k?
New battery tech is racing forward with some cars having range in excess of most ICE vehicles and 20min charging from 20-80% in fast charge stations.
The production costs are a problem with the EV initially 'dirtier' than ICE but at around 80k miles that changes and the power loss in a lithium battery over distance is les than the power loss in an ICE as wears with age. Ev servicing is also a lot cleaner less fluids, spares etc
In addition the batteries are recyclable in several ways. They are often taken from the EV and swapped directly into lower demand applications like power banks etc. Or completely recycled again for high draw uses like EV. you cant recycle petrol, diesel, hydrogen or the new synthetic green fuels.
Always makes me laugh when people bang on in chats about lithium mining being dirty - abuse of miners etc while they use their lithium powered laptop/phone etc etc to comment - upgrading said phone etc as soon as they can for another pixel in the camera etc..
As for engine noise etc a few high end AV companies, Harmon Kardon for one build noise generators you can have fited to an EV that mimic engine tone etc in response to load/throttle demand and are very realistic. I have a friend who had a Porsche with this fitted, it was great fun, you could select anything you like - V8 - F1 - even UFO lol
As for changing public attitudes well all im going to say on that is when I was a lad if you wore an ear ring you would get beaten to s**t for being a p_ff. Public attitudes have thankfully changed there as they often do given time etc

HOWEVER despite all of this as petrolheads we all know in our souls that its just not the same but I do think its inevitable over the next decade :| :cry: :(

Personally I reckon we will end up with green hydrogen in the end, does a hydrogen engine make a noise? Anyone know the answer??
 
mcbutler said:
Personally I reckon we will end up with green hydrogen in the end, does a hydrogen engine make a noise? Anyone know the answer??
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I believe they do, yes, but it's not just about the noise. You can feel an engine, it's characteristics, its behaviour, its energy, its living and breathing and it adds so much to the experience of driving. I've driven a bunch of EVs, and whilst they're very effective at what they're being asked to do, they're just dull and lifeless, and just not for me, especially when there are potentially better solutions such as synthetic fuels available (which FYI don't need a whole new refuelling infrastructure built).
 
Have a read of this…

https://www.visordown.com/news/industry/six-european-member-states-set-back-track-petrol-ban

JL
 
mcbutler said:
the power loss in a lithium battery over distance is les than the power loss in an ICE as wears with age.
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That sounds like regurgitated EV marketing bullsh!t. Anecdotal at best.
You're going to have to back up that spurious claim with some verifiable evidence/published independent research if you want that to stick!
:headbang:
 
I don’t think the power loss as such is the problem, it’s when a cell or a component in the circuitry that fails, resulting in a very expensive repair or replacement.
 
Chris_D said:
mcbutler said:
the power loss in a lithium battery over distance is les than the power loss in an ICE as wears with age.
Click to expand...

That sounds like regurgitated EV marketing bullsh!t. Anecdotal at best.
You're going to have to back up that spurious claim with some verifiable evidence/published independent research if you want that to stick!
:headbang:
Click to expand...
I got that from a friend in the car leasing business, it was mentioned in conversation how the lease prices of EV have dropped and its a lot to do with the expected drop in battery efficiency over time not happening. If they make big business decisions based on that its probably proven, you could probably find the research if you looked fior it .....
 
Chippie said:
I don’t think the power loss as such is the problem, it’s when a cell or a component in the circuitry that fails, resulting in a very expensive repair or replacement.
Click to expand...
Inrteresting point but probably the same for ICE and ICE have far more parts to fail i would think?
 
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