Train drivers striking over pay

[Smartbear]

Firstly why does any union hold to ransom innocent people purely for financial gains?
Secondly if any union member doesn't like their job/wages why not get a different job?

Can you tell who's side I'm on.

Incorrect, strike action isn’t purely for financial gain - safety is a massive issue behind this strike & previous occasions.
https://metro.co.uk/2022/06/22/rail-strikes-have-nothing-to-do-with-money-says-worker-16871346/
The problem with your suggestion of just leaving if things go downhill is you end up in a race to the bottom, why not join a company that has a trade union to act on your behalf?
Do you enjoy paid holiday/sick leave with your present job? Improvements to working conditions like these were fought for by the unions & their members.
Rob

Safety a massive issue? One of the current practices they are trying to change is rail staff walking the tracks, tapping the rails and looking for defects. Some in the past have been killed. In Germany and other countries they have cameras mounted on trains taking thousands of frames per minute doing the same thing remotely. Some counties use drones to check the track rather than humans which break easily when hit by a train. Much safer I suspect.

Ultrasonics are also employed to detect cracks in running rails that aren’t visible to the naked eye (by a man walking along the rails) maybe you can give us the wisdom of your knowledge on this practice based on years of experience in the industry?
Rob

 

[Pondy]

Holidays? London Underground runs everyday apart from Christmas Day & staff can be rostered to work every bank holiday.
These jobs are available for everyone to apply for

See that proves you have no idea, Robinho. Don't take it personally, I'm not blaming anyone individually. Just polar opposites of working life. Public sector against private. And the divide seems to be getting wider.

Rostered is the key word here. In small business there is no such word, believe me.

Also as a note; I have done work on the London Underground (as a contractor back in the early '90s). The H&S, restricted hours, reams of paperwork and bullshit meant that our costs had to be treble to break even. All paid for by the public purse. It was so ridiculous that nobody wanted the work, so the costs were pushed even higher. At least I didn't have to join a union, that was the only saving grace.

 

[Nanu]

Incorrect, strike action isn’t purely for financial gain - safety is a massive issue behind this strike & previous occasions.
https://metro.co.uk/2022/06/22/rail-strikes-have-nothing-to-do-with-money-says-worker-16871346/
The problem with your suggestion of just leaving if things go downhill is you end up in a race to the bottom, why not join a company that has a trade union to act on your behalf?
Do you enjoy paid holiday/sick leave with your present job? Improvements to working conditions like these were fought for by the unions & their members.
Rob

Safety a massive issue? One of the current practices they are trying to change is rail staff walking the tracks, tapping the rails and looking for defects. Some in the past have been killed. In Germany and other countries they have cameras mounted on trains taking thousands of frames per minute doing the same thing remotely. Some counties use drones to check the track rather than humans which break easily when hit by a train. Much safer I suspect.

So the camera can tell if the bolts are torqued correctly can it? Unless you have experience in the industry it maybe best not to comment on technical issues.
When the train derails do you suspect it could injure more than 1 person?
Rob

no experience whatsoever. Just see what works in other countries. Don’t need inside knowledge for that

 

[Smartbear]

Holidays? London Underground runs everyday apart from Christmas Day & staff can be rostered to work every bank holiday.
These jobs are available for everyone to apply for

See that proves you have no idea, Robinho. Don't take it personally, I'm not blaming anyone individually. Just polar opposites of working life. Public sector against private. And the divide seems to be getting wider.

Rostered is the key word here. In small business there is no such word, believe me.

Also as a note; I have done work on the London Underground (as a contractor back in the early '90s). The H&S, restricted hours, reams of paperwork and bullshit meant that our costs had to be treble to break even. All paid for by the public purse. It was so ridiculous that nobody wanted the work, so the costs were pushed even higher. At least I didn't have to join a union, that was the only saving grace.

I’m not taking it personally at all, I’ve also worked in the private sector on shifts but never had to work on bank holidays (as I regularly did on the tube)
H&S is a nightmare in the industry but can you imagine the outcry if it was allowed to slide? Accident rates would soar and the industry would be (rightly) slated.
It’s happened before over the years, that’s how things evolve on the railway - practices that don’t work tend to become exposed, wether it’s working too many hours (because of low pay) leading to more & sometimes fatal mistakes or accidents involving trains that have highlighted how signalling systems can be modified to reduce loss of life.
I’d say i have more idea than most on this thread as I’ve seen life from both sides & have a comprehensive understanding of the railway industry.
It’s frightening how quickly some people forget https://www.ciras.org.uk/Whats-New/Articles/watching-the-weak-signals-clapham-and-the-corporate-memory
Rob

 

[Smartbear]

Safety a massive issue? One of the current practices they are trying to change is rail staff walking the tracks, tapping the rails and looking for defects. Some in the past have been killed. In Germany and other countries they have cameras mounted on trains taking thousands of frames per minute doing the same thing remotely. Some counties use drones to check the track rather than humans which break easily when hit by a train. Much safer I suspect.

So the camera can tell if the bolts are torqued correctly can it? Unless you have experience in the industry it maybe best not to comment on technical issues.
When the train derails do you suspect it could injure more than 1 person?
Rob

no experience whatsoever. Just see what works in other countries. Don’t need inside knowledge for that

You need inside knowledge to realise what’s needed, we can’t adopt everything that works in other countries for many varied reasons, but you wouldn’t know anything about that.
Rob

 

[MikeyH]

Can we do teachers next? Please!

Seems to be the highest paid public sector workers are the ones wanting to strike all the time. Train drivers, barristers, teachers! Of course, it's not actually their fault. No public sector worker has the first clue, or cares, where the money actually comes from.

If I knew 35 years ago what I know now, I would have moved heaven and earth to work in the public sector. Pensions, pay rises, striking if you don't get a good one, holidays...all a different world to the one I have lived in being a small businessman for 30 years. :roll:

Plus 1

 

[Pondy]

Holidays? London Underground runs everyday apart from Christmas Day & staff can be rostered to work every bank holiday.
These jobs are available for everyone to apply for

See that proves you have no idea, Robinho. Don't take it personally, I'm not blaming anyone individually. Just polar opposites of working life. Public sector against private. And the divide seems to be getting wider.

Rostered is the key word here. In small business there is no such word, believe me.

Also as a note; I have done work on the London Underground (as a contractor back in the early '90s). The H&S, restricted hours, reams of paperwork and bullshit meant that our costs had to be treble to break even. All paid for by the public purse. It was so ridiculous that nobody wanted the work, so the costs were pushed even higher. At least I didn't have to join a union, that was the only saving grace.

I’m not taking it personally at all, I’ve also worked in the private sector on shifts but never had to work on bank holidays (as I regularly did on the tube)
H&S is a nightmare in the industry but can you imagine the outcry if it was allowed to slide? Accident rates would soar and the industry would be (rightly) slated.
It’s happened before over the years, that’s how things evolve on the railway - practices that don’t work tend to become exposed, wether it’s working too many hours (because of low pay) leading to more & sometimes fatal mistakes or accidents involving trains that have highlighted how signalling systems can be modified to reduce loss of life.
I’d say i have more idea than most on this thread as I’ve seen life from both sides & have a comprehensive understanding of the railway industry.
It’s frightening how quickly some people forget https://www.ciras.org.uk/Whats-New/Articles/watching-the-weak-signals-clapham-and-the-corporate-memory
Rob

As usual Rob, you are the epitome of reason and candour. I salute you

I don't necessarily agree with you on this subject, but that's fine by me.

 

[Argyll Andy]

No public sector worker has the first clue, or cares, where the money actually comes from

I beg to differ

 

[Scubaregs]

No public sector worker has the first clue, or cares, where the money actually comes from

I beg to differ

Each council prints their own cash?

 

[Argyll Andy]

No public sector worker has the first clue, or cares, where the money actually comes from

I beg to differ

Each council prints their own cash?

If only, would solve a lot of problems, and I’d get a bloody mahooosive pay rise

Within the Public Sector (Local Authority), the limited income streams and very large fixed costs means there only is a VERY small % of the budget where you can generate more income.

So £100m budget, £80m fixed, variable budget ‘only” £20m so £5m cut from £100m is in reality a 25% budget cut or increase to income streams of 25%, never going to happen, solely for political reasons. No councillor would keep their seat if that was passed.

Was discussing/explaining all of this with a senior manager yesterday. They don’t deal with finance at all in their roll so Pondrew is partially correct about the knowledge of/lack of of financial set up within the Public Sector. For us every 1% un-budgeted pay increase awarded that costs us circa an additional £1.2m and that’s in a smallish Council. We”normally” build in a 2% increase in budget prep which will be there, so up to 2%, we’re on budget, above that, we’re trying to find the funding. Where the real stinger is we do budget prep starting now, for completion in Nov 22, passed by Council mid Feb 23, implemented Apr 23. We normally build in a small % for increases like fuel etc, this is totally unpredictable just now and very difficult to forecast, including any additional Pay increase negotiations.

I’m making this very clear here, I’m not saying there should only be the 2% increase because what that’s budgeted for, everyone is due fair renumeration for the job they carry out and to try and cope with ever increasing costs, pay awards should not equal a pay cut by not being enough to keep up with COL increases

But as Pondrew says, a nice easy life in the Public Sector, not :wink:

And yes, I’ve worked in both sectors, owned multiple businesses over the last 30 years so am also aware of the “advantages” of working for yourself Pondrew :wink:

 

[Pondy]

But as Pondrew says, a nice easy life in the Public Sector, not

I don't remember saying that TBH. Polar opposites of working life, that's all. With polar opposite views for obvious reasons.

This thread is about public sector pay rises and strike action (specifically train drivers). I don't think people in my situation, and there are millions of us, can be blamed for having a problem with the constant demands of well-paid civil servants wanting more and more without a care of where it comes from, while the rest of us who actually pay for it are being squeezed just as hard but have to just get on with it.

 

[pvr]

But as Pondrew says, a nice easy life in the Public Sector, not

I don't remember saying that TBH. Polar opposites of working life, that's all. With polar opposite views for obvious reasons.

This thread is about public sector pay rises and strike action (specifically train drivers). I don't think people in my situation, and there are millions of us, can be blamed for having a problem with the constant demands of well-paid civil servants wanting more and more without a care of where it comes from, while the rest of us who actually pay for it are being squeezed just as hard but have to just get on with it.

Agreed - but whilst Britain has the worst militant unions in the world who oppose any automation and improvements such as Nanu's example of German Engineering advances, driverless trains, removal of redundant guards, we are stuck with this ever lasting circle of bad service and strikes. Taken that the UK had 43 derailments since 2000 and Germany 19 (Source Google - first hit on derailment statistics), I don't think the current methods are "world beating". We won't mention the wrong type of snow and leafs.

 

[MikeyH]

The industry that I worked in as an employee up to about 20 years was mainly very small companies with around 2 employees. No one belonged to a trade union, no point, if we had gone on strike within a few weeks the firm would most likely gone under. So no job. Most of the owners belonged to the Free Masons so controlled what everyone was paid, cause a fuss no employment in the business. So yes I’m happier to be self employed now and able to set my own income. Still not making £60,000 a year but at least being paid what the job is worth.

 

[Argyll Andy]

But as Pondrew says, a nice easy life in the Public Sector, not

I don't remember saying that TBH. Polar opposites of working life, that's all. With polar opposite views for obvious reasons.

This thread is about public sector pay rises and strike action (specifically train drivers). I don't think people in my situation, and there are millions of us, can be blamed for having a problem with the constant demands of well-paid civil servants wanting more and more without a care of where it comes from, while the rest of us who actually pay for it are being squeezed just as hard but have to just get on with it.

Firstly the bits at you were in jest as usual, not directed at you or your comments, in fact I agreed with you on some points which you know as a rule I don’t like to do :lol:

I do take your points on board, as you say we have different views and different sides of the fence. I understand the frustration at everyone, including me, about very well paid CS’s demanding more without a care of the consequences. On my personal experience there’s a lot less of them in LA settings so not something I’m personally seeing much of.

Strike actions and unions, don’t particularly agree with strike action just for pay tbh and unions, they can f**k right off as far as I’m concerned. They’ve personally shafted me twice. Once when I was very young and didn’t know better and again within the last 5 years, my job (with another 3 colleagues) was up for comp redundancy. I contacted the union (3 out of the 4 of us were members) I asked for a breakdown in their part of getting to that stage, they were involved in meetings from before we knew, and also to represent us, put over our views and a legal point I was raising.

I’m still waiting for feedback from that meeting. Our jobs were made redundant at that stage, we were notified by HR that we had individual meetings where we would be offered reduced hrs on reduced terms as the removal of our posts had been approved. I asked what the union had done, answer zero, hadn’t raised our points, nada. Nodded it through.

I went to my “meeting” to be told I was being made redundant and may possibly be offered an alternative job. Meeting was attended by my LM, HR Manager and Legal rep for Council. I refused to sign anything, made the legal challenge myself, they all looked at each other, told me I was wrong and asked me to sign the paperwork again. Told if I didn’t I would be made redundant without offer of alternative employment. I told them again wasn’t signing anything until my legal point was officially answered. I left the meeting, the subsequent 3 were called in and asked to sign. I told them I hadn’t signed and they decided not to either. Got a phone call 4 days later telling me they couldn’t do what they’d proposed. I was staying in my job and the funny thing is they also found out that while we remained the post holders they couldn’t make any changes because of our service and T&C’s I 99.9% knew this was the case right from the start so that was my challenge. Union knew f**k all and I had to try and explain it to them before the meeting. Another pointless interaction with the union. Left the union the day after I got confirmation my job was ok

 

[Scubaregs]

I officially get made redundant on August 31st and one of the few pleasures I will take from it is when I cancel the DD to unite. Only reason I joined is the company I work for tend to discipline employees at every opportunity and I felt it was wise to be in the union in case I was ever in that situation. Company agreed a wage rise three years ago with the union, which should have came into force last year, then reneged on it. Union did feck all.

 

[Ed Doe]

Kinda didn't want to get involved, but isn't the point of the drivers striking to cause a meaningful and immediate impact on the running of trains? If the ticket office went on strike people would just use automated ticket machines, and if maintenance workers went on strike then the public wouldn't really see an immediate effect, which would make it difficult to define a start and finish to strike action. So by the drivers joining the strike action my understanding is they are supporting the wider employees, rather than necessarily striking for themselves....

Anyway I'm now more interested in what scubaregs does for a job? I'm fairly frequently in full BA and suits and harness crawling about inside pressure vessels on oil and gas platforms, so curious as to what you do and what gas you're working in?! Our frequent ones ars h2s and benzene, neither of which are particularly pleasant!

 

[Pondy]

Anyway I'm now more interested in what scubaregs does for a job?

Judging by the post above; nothing after 31st August.

 

[Scubaregs]

Anyway I'm now more interested in what scubaregs does for a job?

Judging by the post above; nothing after 31st August.

I wish Pondy, but will need to pick something up as a bit early to retire.

[ref]Ed Doe[/ref], I'm a man tech in a chemical manufacturing plant, agrochemicals. We have quite a few H2's, none of which are particularly nice. The chemical requiring full BA/Acid suit for unloading from the tanker is a liquid, I'm not going to name it.
Before I joined that particular process, one of my coworkers was doing the tanker with a man tech who was doing it for the first time. Whist they were on top of the tanker coupling up the hoses, a pigeon dropped dead in mid air and landed beside them. The experienced man tech promptly fled the scene, leaving a bewildered trainee behind, frantically gesticulating for them to follow.
No leak was found, all was good, however that experienced man tech never did a tanker again.

 

[Smartbear]

But as Pondrew says, a nice easy life in the Public Sector, not

I don't remember saying that TBH. Polar opposites of working life, that's all. With polar opposite views for obvious reasons.

This thread is about public sector pay rises and strike action (specifically train drivers). I don't think people in my situation, and there are millions of us, can be blamed for having a problem with the constant demands of well-paid civil servants wanting more and more without a care of where it comes from, while the rest of us who actually pay for it are being squeezed just as hard but have to just get on with it.

Agreed - but whilst Britain has the worst militant unions in the world who oppose any automation and improvements such as Nanu's example of German Engineering advances, driverless trains, removal of redundant guards, we are stuck with this ever lasting circle of bad service and strikes. Taken that the UK had 43 derailments since 2000 and Germany 19 (Source Google - first hit on derailment statistics), I don't think the current methods are "world beating". We won't mention the wrong type of snow and leafs.

That’s the trouble with statistics, they can be made to prove anything you want, you also need to be careful what you wish for, after the removal of the redundant guards it’s going to take some convincing to remove the drivers.
Who do you think leads the stranded passengers to safety after the train breaks down? Where there’s poor light or heaven forbid a fire?
It’s the driver.

Rob

 

[Pondy]

Rob. Did we have the fewest accidents because not many trains moved, due to industrial action?

Asking for a friend..