Tough Roof problem 2009 E89

[Rob E89]

Good work!

There are multiple pages to view for the sensors (3-5?) as well as for the Lock conditions (in total 4). The green arrows on the lower right always indicate additionally pages.

Can be switched by the page down/up keys.

These two first pages look OK.


Another question:
Hey Rob, where are you from? Can't see it on any profile. Chance to meet anywhere?

Ill go through all the sensors in the next 45 mins and report back.

Unfortunately Im from B.C Canada, the other side of the world to you.

In this image https://imgur.com/a/speed-fzrxklI the green bar seems to be set from about 9km/h to 120km/h. Do you think that means that the roof will only open between those speeds? Ill try setting the "GESCHWINDIGKEIT_E89" in the CTM to Wert_04 (this should allow roof operation while moving upto 40km/h?) then drive at 15km/h and try opening the top.

 

[RobbiZ4]

Ill go through all the sensors in the next 45 mins and report back.

Unfortunately Im from B.C Canada, the other side of the world to you.

In this image https://imgur.com/a/speed-fzrxklI the green bar seems to be set from about 9km/h to 120km/h. Do you think that means that the roof will only open between those speeds? Ill try setting the "GESCHWINDIGKEIT_E89" in the CTM to Wert_04 (this should allow roof operation while moving upto 40km/h?) then drive at 15km/h and try opening the top.

The roof always can be opened/close on a parking car, speed 0 (zero). No need to code anything.

 

[Rob E89]

Thank you for letting me know about the different pages!

Here is the sperrbedingungen pages 1 to 4
https://imgur.com/a/mQQXgAN

And here is the sensor data pages 1 to 3
https://imgur.com/a/HVrejve

I notice on page 3 of sensor data Verdeckposition is undefined, could that be the issue?



EDIT:

I was reading a case you solved in 2021. This owner had no error code(same as me), one of the switches wasn't switching when it should.
"After some checks, this switch in the rear panel was electrically fine, no broken wires or sth. else, but it did not change it's switch state."
https://z4-forum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=131002

On my car, Perhaps one of the switches that tells if the rear glass section of the roof is down/up is misreading?

Im tempted to release the 2 hydraulic pump pressure screws,
raise the rear glass section of roof fully to the open position,
re tighten the screws, then see if the roof will open the rest of the way with the open button.

With the glass panel section of the roof open I can access the microswitches and test them with a multi meter (0.05 kOhm when open 2.7 kOhm when closed)

 

[RobbiZ4]

Here is the sperrbedingungen pages 1 to 4
https://imgur.com/a/mQQXgAN
And here is the sensor data pages 1 to 3
https://imgur.com/a/HVrejve

All pages seem to be fine for a completely locked roof.

I notice on page 3 of sensor data Verdeckposition is undefined, could that be the issue?

Interesting!
I will check mine this morning...

I was reading a case you solved in 2021. This owner had no error code(same as me), one of the switches wasn't switching when it should.
"After some checks, this switch in the rear panel was electrically fine, no broken wires or sth. else, but it did not change it's switch state."
https://z4-forum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=131002

IMHO a different situation. Yours currently is completely closed'n'locked. At first the pump has to start to release the locking and then could lead to a microswitch fault like in the former example.

Im tempted to release the 2 hydraulic pump pressure screws,
raise the rear glass section of roof fully to the open position,
re tighten the screws, then see if the roof will open the rest of the way with the open button.

With the glass panel section of the roof open I can access the microswitches and test them with a multi meter (0.05 kOhm when open 2.7 kOhm when closed)

That doesn't work!!!
You need the support of the hydraulicpump to get the rear roof shell unlocked. Alternatively, you need a special tool from BMW to unlock it from the inside of the car.

I'm still doubting that the hydraulic pump is ok.
You could test this with a little trick:

• remove the salmon caps of both relays of the hydraulic pump. Just take your elder ones for testing.

• put the opened relays into the pump's socket

• if you press the metal plate manually for a very short moment, your pump should start to run

• press the plate on the 2nd relay for a very short moment, it should start to run reverse

If the pump doesn't start, there is still an issue with your motor.

 

[Rob E89]

I did the test and made a video for you.

https://youtu.be/ueP7Yas_9Ks

For salmon relay 1 there is a white wire to activate it
For salmon relay 2 there is an orange wire to activate it

Im not sure if relay 1 or 2 is responsible for turning the motor the correct way for roof down.

In the video I only checked the white wire, I just tested the orange wire and it read 0 v with the button not pushed, and peaked at 0.08V with the button pushed. I re-tested the white wire in the vids but i could get a better contact without filming and on the white wire i got a peak of 0.07V with the button pushed. I looked it up an one person says the salmon relays need 7.5V to activate. So the 0.07v is probably a small signal to check the relay.

I also tested the white wire for resistance (from where it plugs into the CTM to the salmon relay) and it has zero resistance.

In short there is an electrical problem. The CTM is not activating the hydraulic pump. Most electrical issues trigger an error code, so my car giving no error code with an electrical issue is very difficult to fix.


I found a hard top manual:
https://weblog.pac1.net/_Documents/140610_BMW_Z4%28E89%29-05_product_description.pdf

I meet all of the roof operating preconditions. It says the order of roof operations are:

The convertible top module checks the conditions for opening the retractable hardtop
when the Open button in the center console is pressed. If the check is successful, the
hardtop is opened as follows:
• Lower side windows (if closed or in intermediate position) (Step 1 is complete)
• Release hardtop at cowl panel (Not sure how i can check for this)
• Switch off heated rear window (takes place via junction box electronics)
• Unlock and open rear module
• Roof panel 2 is released and packed over roof panel 1
• Stow roof panel package in rear module and lock
• Close and lock rear module
• Close side windows.
The hardtop is closed automatically in the reverse order

 

[RobbiZ4]

I did the test and made a video for you.
https://youtu.be/ueP7Yas_9Ks
For salmon relay 1 there is a white wire to activate it
For salmon relay 2 there is an orange wire to activate it
Im not sure if relay 1 or 2 is responsible for turning the motor the correct way for roof down.

Video looks good, wiring is ok, motor is able to run.
Regarding relay 1 or 2 I can't help, it has to be re-wired if running the wrong way.

In the video I only checked the white wire, I just tested the orange wire and it read 0 v with the button not pushed, and peaked at 0.08V with the button pushed. I re-tested the white wire in the vids but i could get a better contact without filming and on the white wire i got a peak of 0.07V with the button pushed. I looked it up an one person says the salmon relays need 7.5V to activate. So the 0.07v is probably a small signal to check the relay.
I also tested the white wire for resistance (from where it plugs into the CTM to the salmon relay) and it has zero resistance.

Well, you can't measure output ports of an ECU this way. Each voltage value is depending on the electronic components inside of the ECU.

In short there is an electrical problem. The CTM is not activating the hydraulic pump.

I'd say it's a logical problem. To identify a hardware problem of the CTM, you have to get it replaced by another CTM, that is known to work fine. Up to this check, it's a logical problem.

Most electrical issues trigger an error code, so my car giving no error code with an electrical issue is very difficult to fix.

I wouldn't agree to this, IMHO it's exactly the opposite.

I found a hard top manual:
https://weblog.pac1.net/_Documents/140610_BMW_Z4%28E89%29-05_product_description.pdf

I meet all of the roof operating preconditions. It says the order of roof operations are:

The convertible top module checks the conditions for opening the retractable hardtop
when the Open button in the center console is pressed. If the check is successful, the
hardtop is opened as follows:
• Lower side windows (if closed or in intermediate position) (Step 1 is complete)
• Release hardtop at cowl panel (Not sure how i can check for this) => this is the front locking motor
• Switch off heated rear window (takes place via junction box electronics)
• Unlock and open rear module
• Roof panel 2 is released and packed over roof panel 1
• Stow roof panel package in rear module and lock
• Close and lock rear module
• Close side windows.
The hardtop is closed automatically in the reverse order

Correct.

The front locking motor can be checked by powering up the 2 pole plug of the CTM. Unplug it from the CTM, put plus/minus on any of the 2 poles and the motor has to lock/unlock. If not, there is an issue with this motor ot it's wiring.

 

[Rob E89]

The front locking motor can be checked by powering up the 2 pole plug of the CTM. Unplug it from the CTM, put plus/minus on any of the 2 poles and the motor has to lock/unlock. If not, there is an issue with this motor ot it's wiring.

Thanks for the input, I have no experience with this sort of issue. Its very frustrating for me.

I just tested the front locking motors using the 2 pin plug in the CTM (brown wire = ground, black wire with red stripe = positive) And it unlocked the front roof panel from the windshield.

What would you recommend I try next @RobbiZ4 ?

 

[RobbiZ4]

Next step:

Check with INPA the locking status of the 2 microswitches next to the front locking motor:
VSW 4_1
VSW 4_2
It's on your first 2 screenshots on top of this page. Do they switch over from locked to unlocked while driving this motor?

 

[B21]

Epic detective work guys.,respect!

 

[Rob E89]

Next step:

Check with INPA the locking status of the 2 microswitches next to the front locking motor:
VSW 4_1
VSW 4_2
It's on your first 2 screenshots on top of this page. Do they switch over from locked to unlocked while driving this motor?

I made a video while I was manually locking and unlocking the front roof panel to the windscreen
https://youtu.be/UoowkCm2ON4

In short:
Locked:
VSW 4_1 : Ein
VSW 4_2 : Aus

Unlocked:
VSW 4_1 : Aus
VSW 4_2 : Ein

 

[RobbiZ4]

Tous ça vas bien.

 

[Rob E89]

Tous ça vas bien.

:/

Do you think the undefined verdeckposition could be the issue?

 

[RobbiZ4]

Couldn't see that on my E89. Tomorrow I'm able to connect with INPA against an E89 with a broken wire in the roof.

 

[RobbiZ4]

Ok, I get "undefined" as well.

 

[Rob E89]

Ah, what do you recommend I try next?

I can buy a used E89 CTM For $500 Canadian dollars

I dont know if changing these settings will help diagnosis, but for VSW Logik:

AKTIV-
VSW4_1
VSW4_2
VSW5_1
VSW5_3
VSW6_1

NICHT AKTIV-
VSW1_1
VSW1_2
VSW2_3
VSW2_4
VSW2_5
VSW5_2
VSW8
VSW9
VSW7_3

 

[RobbiZ4]

The front locking motor can be checked by powering up the 2 pole plug of the CTM.

Sorry, could have been done easier with INPA:
Select Karosserie/Cabrioverdeckmodul/F6 Ansteuern
Then you can lock/unlock the front locking system.

I can buy a used E89 CTM For $500 Canadian dollars

Well, it's really rare for a CTM to stop working without an error code for one of the I/O ports.

Last night, I reread the entire thread to find something we missed or misinterpreted, but I couldn't find anything.

For exact these weird situations I do have 2(!) spare CTM's, one built with a SW version up to 6.00.00 (latest version for 3 solenoids), one with the newer one up to 6.70.00 (latest version for 4 solenoids).


But, it seems, that your CTM isn't dead.

• Before ordering a replacement, just try to open the front locking system with INPA.

• What about current fault codes of the CTM (F4 "Fehlerspeicher" and F1 "Fehlerspeicher auslesen") after selecting the CTM.

 

[Rob E89]

I can buy a used E89 CTM For $500 Canadian dollars

Well, it's really rare for a CTM to stop working without an error code for one of the I/O ports.

Last night, I reread the entire thread to find something we missed or misinterpreted, but I couldn't find anything.

For exact these weird situations I do have 2(!) spare CTM's, one built with a SW version up to 6.00.00 (latest version for 3 solenoids), one with the newer one up to 6.70.00 (latest version for 4 solenoids).


But, it seems, that your CTM isn't dead.

• Before ordering a replacement, just try to open the front locking system with INPA.

• What about current fault codes of the CTM (F4 "Fehlerspeicher" and F1 "Fehlerspeicher auslesen") after selecting the CTM.

Yeah, its very frustrating.



If i manually unlock the front windshield from the roof, then release hydraulic pressure with the screws on the hydraulic unit, then manually push the release latches on the rear deck. Can I open the top manually?

 

[RobbiZ4]

If i manually unlock the front windshield from the roof, then release hydraulic pressure with the screws on the hydraulic unit, then manually push the release latches on the rear deck. Can I open the top manually?

Well,
for a complete manual opening there are 2 special BMW tools required: one for mechanically unlock the rear roof shell and a rod for unlocking the trunk frame (by pushing both coupling cylinders).

83300496598 E89 Dorn Koppelverschluss


83300496597 E89 Exzenter Dachverriegelung


There were some discussions regarding these tools here around...

 

[Rob E89]

I have some new observations and ideas:

Observation:
When i push the roof down button(on key or in car) the windows all roll down as they should, roof panel 2 does not unlock then the roof-down process stops. When I press the roof up button with the windows down after the failed roof-down operation, the windows do not roll up. That leads me to believe the car knows their is a fault, if there was no fault, the car would continue to close the roof from its current part open position.


New ideas:
1) I will screen record video all of the sensors while I try to lower the roof to see what the sensors live read. If I observe that, then see at which exact point the roof deviates from the normal operation, that should help diagnose the issue.

2)I Can unplug the connectors from the CTM and manually measure resistance across the microswitches/sensors. This could reveal a problem where I have a left, and right "roof panel 2" microswitch. If the wires are in good condition, and 1 of the 2 switches is broken and giving a strange signal, it would not be enough for the CTM to give me an error code. But it would be enough for the CTM to think something is wrong and stop the roof open/close process.

3)I bought the car used with a broken roof, I figured it would be the hydraulic motor, a broken switch, or broken wires. I don't know if someone in the past messed around with the coding on the cars control modules. Someone could have messed up the settings, was unable to fix it and sold it as "Broken". The CTM is linked to a few other modules. It might be a good idea to re-code the CTM back to factory configuration. And then go through the other modules and carefully examine any options that are related to the CTM to make sure they are not interfering with the open/close process. I was just retrofitting cruise control (did it successfully!!) and I saw some strange options in the CAS module, such as "FH_release_top_zwstlg", I have no idea what this does. There are many options like this, all it would take is 1 to be incorrect to stop the top opening half way through.


Here is the module tree that shows which modules are connected, there are a lot of modules connected with the CTM that could be causing the issue.


If I have made any errors please feel free to correct me.

 

[Chippie]

It’s awkward trying to diagnose a fault with a car you have just bought and not knowing if anyone else has messed something up, but I suspect you are overthinking things and it’s probably a faulty switch/sensor or wire, I’ve used NCSDummy to do some coding on mine and I can send you a PSW file to compare if you PM me your email address, although I’m away from home and won’t be back until the end of the week, I’m pretty sure that if you write a blank PSW file to the module that it will reset it back to the factory settings, but please check this before trying.