Tough Roof problem 2009 E89

[bigwinn]

Op I think credit where it is due you have gone deeper into stuff than most would

However, by now I would have sourced a new CTM on sale or return just to plug in and try that option-

 

[Rob E89]

It’s awkward trying to diagnose a fault with a car you have just bought and not knowing if anyone else has messed something up, but I suspect you are overthinking things and it’s probably a faulty switch/sensor or wire, I’ve used NCSDummy to do some coding on mine and I can send you a PSW file to compare if you PM me your email address, although I’m away from home and won’t be back until the end of the week, I’m pretty sure that if you write a blank PSW file to the module that it will reset it back to the factory settings, but please check this before trying.

I think you are right that it is a switch/sensor. Hopefully my electrical resistance testing will tell me which one is broken.

I have coded a blank PSW file to the ctm and it did reset the module back to factory settings. With the other connected modules, i have changed a lot of things:
-Removed the gong sound for most things(this car gongs/beeps almost non stop, i think the JDM versions are worse then EUDM and USDM)
-Cruise control retrofit
-Daytime running lights (and changed from RHD to LHD headlight pattern)
-added digital speed readout and removed speed correction
-Removed media system warnings + changed radio frequencies from japan spec to US spec + changed DVD region and dvd speed lock
+ a few other small things

So if i reset those it will be a huge pain to re code all the things I want. Thank you for the offer!

Op I think credit where it is due you have gone deeper into stuff than most would

However, by now I would have sourced a new CTM on sale or return just to plug in and try that option-

If I had any proof or any signs that the CTM was bad I would buy one right away. But it looks in excellent physical condition and responds perfectly when tested. If the resistance testing of the micro switches comes back perfect then Ill buy a new CTM. Also, I think i have the only E89 for 200km around me, my city is isolated and only has 100,000 people. I have never seen an E89 in this city and I drive around/ cycle around a lot. I wish someone near me had one so i could plug theirs in to my car to test.

 

[RobbiZ4]

I am brand new to the BMW world and just got my E89 10 days ago.

How does this fit to your giant retrofitting experience, you noted down in your last 2 posts? :tumbleweed:
That is sth. I'm wondering since you posted the first details.

 

[RobbiZ4]

Observation:
When i push the roof down button(on key or in car) the windows all roll down as they should, roof panel 2 does not unlock then the roof-down process stops. When I press the roof up button with the windows down after the failed roof-down operation, the windows do not roll up.
=> That leads me to believe the car knows there is a fault, if there was no fault, the car would continue to close the roof from its current part open position.

This conclusion might be correct, as this behaviour is typically on timeout faults of the CTM.

As your pump doesn't start to run managed by the CTM, there is a timeout and the CTM stops any further activity without storing a fault code.

New ideas:
2)I Can unplug the connectors from the CTM and manually measure resistance across the microswitches/sensors. This could reveal a problem where I have a left, and right "roof panel 2" microswitch. If the wires are in good condition, and 1 of the 2 switches is broken and giving a strange signal, it would not be enough for the CTM to give me an error code. But it would be enough for the CTM to think something is wrong and stop the roof open/close process.

I don't agree:

• If a wire is already broken/shorted at the beginning, the CTM can identify it and will present a warning gong when pessing the roof button (in addition with a message on the navi screen if avalable)

• If a "broken" wire get's opened/shorted after the first moving (even on the first milimeter), the pump has to start at first und you will hear it

You didn't report neither 1 nor 2.

3)I bought the car used with a broken roof, I figured it would be the hydraulic motor, a broken switch, or broken wires. I don't know if someone in the past messed around with the coding on the cars control modules. Someone could have messed up the settings, was unable to fix it and sold it as "Broken".

That could be the key to your issues.

Please post a picture of your current CTM label(!) as well as a picture of your hydraulic pump (top view with the white label). Or did you already?

The CTM is linked to a few other modules. It might be a good idea to re-code the CTM back to factory configuration. And then go through the other modules and carefully examine any options that are related to the CTM to make sure they are not interfering with the open/close process.
CAS top.jpg

Postpone this idea.

 

[Rob E89]

I am brand new to the BMW world and just got my E89 10 days ago.

How does this fit to your giant retrofitting experience, you noted down in your last 2 posts? :tumbleweed:
That is sth. I'm wondering since you posted the first details.

I don't have any experience with BMW, my e89 is my first and I haven't had it for very long.
I have a problem and I am trying to fix it the best I can with my limited knowledge. Taking the car to a mechanic will cost more than the car is worth to repair. Im posting my results and thought processes in this thread, so that anyone in the future with a similar problem can hopefully fix their E89 roof too.

This conclusion might be correct, as this behaviour is typically on timeout faults of the CTM. Interesting to know

As your pump doesn't start to run managed by the CTM, there is a timeout and the CTM stops any further activity without storing a fault code.

New ideas:
2)I Can unplug the connectors from the CTM and manually measure resistance across the microswitches/sensors. This could reveal a problem where I have a left, and right "roof panel 2" microswitch. If the wires are in good condition, and 1 of the 2 switches is broken and giving a strange signal, it would not be enough for the CTM to give me an error code. But it would be enough for the CTM to think something is wrong and stop the roof open/close process.

I don't agree:

• If a wire is already broken/shorted at the beginning, the CTM can identify it and will present a warning gong when pessing the roof button (in addition with a message on the navi screen if avalable)

• If a "broken" wire get's opened/shorted after the first moving (even on the first milimeter), the pump has to start at first und you will hear it

You didn't report neither 1 nor 2. I have no error codes and dont suspect a wire is broken/shorted. I was thinking that one of the micro switches is giving the CTM the wrong voltage. Not a huge difference in voltage that would produce a code, but enough to cause the roof not to work. Maybe 18 mV too high or too low. I will ignore this for now and come back to it later if other solutions dont work.

3)I bought the car used with a broken roof, I figured it would be the hydraulic motor, a broken switch, or broken wires. I don't know if someone in the past messed around with the coding on the cars control modules. Someone could have messed up the settings, was unable to fix it and sold it as "Broken".

That could be the key to your issues. I have reset most of the modules back to factory default settings. If other solutions dont work I will look into resetting everything back to default at a future date.

Please post a picture of your current CTM label(!) as well as a picture of your hydraulic pump (top view with the white label). Or did you already? I seem to have an early model CTM(7206761) and the 3 solenoid Hydraulic pump, Ill attach pics

Hydraulic pump stickers

 

[RobbiZ4]

Txs 4 the pics, pump and CTM are from week 15/16 2009 and should fit together.

 

[RobbiZ4]

I was thinking that one of the micro switches is giving the CTM the wrong voltage. Not a huge difference in voltage that would produce a code, but enough to cause the roof not to work. Maybe 18 mV too high or too low. I will ignore this for now and come back to it later if other solutions dont work.[/b]

AFAIK all sensor values are working just logically, not by an exact voltage. Values are LOW (0,4-0,65V) and HIGH (1,8-2,6V). This seems to be very tolerable against drifting voltages. Hallsensors can be substituted by microswitches and vice versa for test purposes - very very tolerant input ports.

 

[Rob E89]

AFAIK all sensor values are working just logically, not by an exact voltage. Values are LOW (0,4-0,65V) and HIGH (1,8-2,6V). This seems to be very tolerable against drifting voltages. Hallsensors can be substituted by microswitches and vice versa for test purposes - very very tolerant input ports.

I see, so there is a lot of room for error with fluctuating electrical signals.

I had to take a few days off trying to fix it because it was causing me stress. I made a video of the live sensor data while im pushing the roof open button. Does anything look out of order/strange?

https://youtu.be/8aPLpKAxYdA

I think the loud creeking noise when I push the "roof open" button is all 4 window motors pushing the windows down for half a second. When I push the window open button and the window is already open, it makes a similar noise.

 

[Rob E89]

Im going to buy a new CTM. The CTM on the car is : 61357206761 dated at 15th week of 2009 with SW version 4.7

From my research I understand that I need a CTM made before 03/2012 to match my 3 solenoid hydraulic pump vs the newer 4 solenoid hydraulic pump. RobbieZ4 mentioned SW Version 6.0 being the newest CTM that the 3 solenoid hydraulic pump would accept. The newer CTMs are all SW 6.7.

I saw this compatibility chart, and it makes it look like the newer CTMs have superseded the older ones (You can uses newer 4 solenoid CTM with a 3 solenoid hydraulic pump?).


I can buy a 61357206761(SW 4.7), or 61357206762(SW 5.0) (Older version) For $500
Or a 613509281723 (2013 "newer" version) for $265

Is the compatibility chart I posted incorrect? Should I get the CTM with SW 5.0?

 

[RobbiZ4]

Im going to buy a new CTM. The CTM on the car is : 61357206761 dated at 15th week of 2009 with SW version 4.7
[...]
RobbiZ4 mentioned SW Version 6.0 being the newest CTM that the 3 solenoid hydraulic pump would accept. The newer CTMs are all SW 6.7.

I saw this compatibility chart, and it makes it look like the newer CTMs have superseded the older ones (You can uses newer 4 solenoid CTM with a 3 solenoid hydraulic pump?).
CTM compatability.jpg

I can buy a 61357206761(SW 4.7), or 61357206762(SW 5.0) (Older version) For $500
Or a 613509281723 (2013 "newer" version) for $265

Is the compatibility chart I posted incorrect? Should I get the CTM with SW 5.0?

No and maybe yes. :roll:

...one built with a SW version up to 6.00.00 (latest version for 3 solenoids), one with the newer one up to 6.70.00 (latest version for 4 solenoids).

As written, this is the only correct info.

Your compatibility list is hardware based, but doesn't contain the different sw requirements. New CTM's from stock always expect 4 solenoids and have to be downgraded with ISTA/P for 3-solenoid-pumps (or require a dummy resistor as solenoid replacement on the green CTM plug).

 

[Rob E89]

Your compatibility list is hardware based, but doesn't contain the different sw requirements. New CTM's from stock always expect 4 solenoids and have to be downgraded with ISTA/P for 3-solenoid-pumps (or require a dummy resistor as solenoid replacement on the green CTM plug).

I have ISTA+ 4.32.15, Is it worth saving $250 buying the newer CTM and downgrading the SW to 6.0 or earlier, or should I buy the SW 5.0 CTM to save a headache. I notice the HW(hardware?) version changes from 2.0 to 3.0 on the newer ctm too.

Many thanks for the advice

 

[RobbiZ4]

ISTA/P is required for programming, another TB consuming prog.

The newer hardware contains the additional port for the 4th solenoid. Interestingly there are hw-3.0 (4 solenoids) versions with sw-6.0 (3 solenoids) available as well.

Might be easier to think about the dummy option in combination with a new CTM from stock:
1 resistor
2 short wires to place it next to the green plug
2 MQS female contacts
shrink tube

 

[Rob E89]

ISTA/P is required for programming, another TB consuming prog.

The newer hardware contains the additional port for the 4th solenoid. Interestingly there are hw-3.0 (4 solenoids) versions with sw-6.0 (3 solenoids) available as well.

Might be easier to think about the dummy option in combination with a new CTM from stock:
1 resistor
2 short wires to place it next to the green plug
2 MQS female contacts
shrink tube

Ok thank you for the advice. Its interesting you can get SW 6.0 on a HW 3.0 ctm! I guess they are quite similar besides the 4th solenoid control. Ill order this newer CTM now, and make the dummy.


Do you have a writeup anywhere how to make the 4th solenoid dummy?

 

[RobbiZ4]

Its interesting you can get SW 6.0 on a HW 3.0 ctm! I guess they are quite similar besides the 4th solenoid control.

Yes, that's the prerequisite for downgrading new CTM's from stock for pre-2012 E89 Z4's.

Do you have a writeup anywhere how to make the 4th solenoid dummy?

Not yet, but the following as a starter:

Might be easier to think about the dummy option in combination with a new CTM from stock:
1 resistor
2 short wires to place it next to the green plug
2 MQS female contacts
shrink tube

We've tested several resistor values and ended up to ~150 (max. 240) ohms with a power of 1W (!). 150 should be save.

Pin 6 and pin 15 on the green connector X410

Should look like this and can be pinned directly into X410.