I have not had good luck with German cars as well. Mid-90s BMWs, early 2000s VWs, and Audi, all had major mechanical issues and at an early age, average miles. The only reason I purchased the E89 Z4 was due to its styling, sportiness, and comfort versus Porsche and Mercedes offerings. It fit the bill better than those for what my wife wanted. It's a 3rd car for us, a weekend, fairweather car and if it breaks, I am not dependent upon it. Since the early 2000s, our daily drivers have been Lexus and I will probably not go outside this brand for anything else. My wife's 2015 GS 450h is a wolf in sheep's clothing - i.e., fast, gets 31 MPG in the city/34 hwy, is luxurious with every available option, and has not been in the shop once. I bought it used at the very start of the pandemic when nobody was shopping for cars and dealers were hurting, got $2000 off an already good price with free shipping from New Mexico to Texas. Five months later, the dealership calls me up asking if I would sell at a $2000 profit back to them! Crazy times.
The myth of German engineering
- Thread starter Busterboo
- Start date
Spaldingski
Chris_D said:
Nissan used to be super reliable in the 80s and earlier with the likes of the Micra, Sunny, Bluebird etc but since then their reliability has taken a hit especially since pairing up with Renault. Toyota Honda and Mazdas are still great despite my experiences.
All valid points on the reliability of different cars we have all had. And yes, some seem to be built better than others even down to different models of same manufacture. You can even find brand new cars off the line that have issues in the first say 1000 miles. But remember everything with age and abuse will eventually wear out. We as humans eventually wear out so even the great maker could not get it completely right.
I've had company cars for the past 25+ years covering over 100K in each all being dealer maintained the best and most reliable have been BMW and ..... Ford !!!
Worst VW !! yes shocking I know, but by a long way I had three, all spent more time with the garage than me. I remember my Passat breaking down in Nov being towed to the garage to line up along with 20+ Passats with the same issue that week . Didn't come back until March the next year.
So yes I agree there is a bit of a myth about German engineering but they are better than most.
Worst VW !! yes shocking I know, but by a long way I had three, all spent more time with the garage than me. I remember my Passat breaking down in Nov being towed to the garage to line up along with 20+ Passats with the same issue that week . Didn't come back until March the next year.
So yes I agree there is a bit of a myth about German engineering but they are better than most.
Ah yes, when I typed it I did think they didn't look quite big enough.Zulu4 said:B787 with GEnx enginesenuff_zed said:
My previous role was tech authoring for Boeing and I was writing the System Description Sections for the 777X. Most fun was the folding wing tip, but I also did the engine, fuel system, APU, undercarriage, flaps, slats, elevators and a few other bits. That engine is incredible. So efficient that they can actually down-rate it to improve fuel consumption. Hard to imagine an engine which is bigger in diameter than a 737 fuselage!
enuff_zed said:Ah yes, when I typed it I did think they didn't look quite big enough.Zulu4 said:B787 with GEnx enginesenuff_zed said:
My previous role was tech authoring for Boeing and I was writing the System Description Sections for the 777X. Most fun was the folding wing tip, but I also did the engine, fuel system, APU, undercarriage, flaps, slats, elevators and a few other bits. That engine is incredible. So efficient that they can actually down-rate it to improve fuel consumption. Hard to imagine an engine which is bigger in diameter than a 737 fuselage!
Yep, jet engines are incredibly reliable machines. Ours must work around 20 hours a day. Day after day.
American engineering wins ! (Although we must keep reminding them that we invented gas turbines
)I've owned a few cars in my relatively long driving life : Ford Anglia, Ford Capri, rust buckets but fairly reliable - Triumph Vittese and 2000, very unreliable and very rust buckets - a sprite, several midgets and MGB roadster unreliable and a bit rusty - Toyota Corolla very reliable and not too rusty. A Renault Megan CC and a Citroen something very unreliable, not rusty but fell apart. Ford Galaxy, Vauxhall Zafira - unreliable. Now Ford Tranny, Ford Astra CC and BMW Z4, non rusty and very reliable. So from this list I would say that cars older than 2003 are s##t and newer ones are good. 
Just my experience though and I have lived by the seaside with all the salt air most of my life. 
Just my experience though and I have lived by the seaside with all the salt air most of my life. Mixed bag like everyone else, couple of ours were big trouble, 306GTi6 where the cam belt snapped on 25k miles and a 205Gti where the gearbox gave up the ghost on 60K miles.
Newer Pugs 208gtI / DS4 and DS3 cross back reliable as hell.
Fords are just fords - some good some terrible.
BMW - Z4 is my first German and pretty reliable other than when I bought it - handbrake and then the microswitch so pretty good for a 12 year old car
Newer Pugs 208gtI / DS4 and DS3 cross back reliable as hell.
Fords are just fords - some good some terrible.
BMW - Z4 is my first German and pretty reliable other than when I bought it - handbrake and then the microswitch so pretty good for a 12 year old car
For balance, my wife has a Mk1 2003 Focus Ghia (bought new) which is still going strong. Serviced every year, used as a mobile skip on many occasions. Original everything bar wiper blades, light bulbs and tyres. She loves it and won't part with it for anything.mcbutler said:
My wife’s car is a Focus CC and also loves the and won’t part with. Gets serviced every year regardless of mileage and runs perfectly. Has been used to bring my son and his stuff back from Aberystwyth Uni and now my daughter to and from Lancaster Uni with even more stuff 
Never misses a beat. I doubt there is a replacement out there like for like except for a 3 series BMW convertible but the boot will be smaller.
Never misses a beat. I doubt there is a replacement out there like for like except for a 3 series BMW convertible but the boot will be smaller. I think whether or not a car is reliable also greatly depends on how expensive the repairs are and how they are fixed.
Look for instance at the e85 z4 and sticky steering. One way to fix it is to completely replace the steering column, costing about £2k, or just rotate the excenter shim, which costs nothing..
Or replace the hydraulic roof pump by removing the complete roof or fixing it from inside the boot.
Or fixing the vanos by fitting a complete new vanos (£500 at BMW) or fixing it by replacing the rings (£50 for a complete kit + 1 extra hour of labour)
So if you add up all the weak points of the e85 z4 (there are quite a few issues that most owners will have to deal with at some point in the life of the car) by fixing it the expensive way or the cheap way, it can either be a really expensive car to own or a pretty cheap car to own.
Repairs become a real issue when they cost a lot and there is no cheap alternative (like replacing the injectors on a N54) or when they leave you stranded (like a bad starter or a blown expansion tank).
That said, my 5 cyl. diesel Volvo XC70 now has done 170k miles and only it only needed a new front windscreen (£125 insurance job) and a new intercooler pressure sensor (£25) besides the regular maintenance (tyres brakes etc).
£150 on repairs in 170k miles aint bad I think. Brilliant car, virtually indestructable.
And no rust whatsover despite it being a car parked on the street.
Look for instance at the e85 z4 and sticky steering. One way to fix it is to completely replace the steering column, costing about £2k, or just rotate the excenter shim, which costs nothing..
Or replace the hydraulic roof pump by removing the complete roof or fixing it from inside the boot.
Or fixing the vanos by fitting a complete new vanos (£500 at BMW) or fixing it by replacing the rings (£50 for a complete kit + 1 extra hour of labour)
So if you add up all the weak points of the e85 z4 (there are quite a few issues that most owners will have to deal with at some point in the life of the car) by fixing it the expensive way or the cheap way, it can either be a really expensive car to own or a pretty cheap car to own.
Repairs become a real issue when they cost a lot and there is no cheap alternative (like replacing the injectors on a N54) or when they leave you stranded (like a bad starter or a blown expansion tank).
That said, my 5 cyl. diesel Volvo XC70 now has done 170k miles and only it only needed a new front windscreen (£125 insurance job) and a new intercooler pressure sensor (£25) besides the regular maintenance (tyres brakes etc).
£150 on repairs in 170k miles aint bad I think. Brilliant car, virtually indestructable.
And no rust whatsover despite it being a car parked on the street.
There was a statistic available in the States re which car makes needed to be flat bedded the most because of sudden undriveable breakdowns.
VW was at the top, followed by Mercedes and Volvo. ( Of course VW sells a lot more cars as well). We all have had different personal experiences. I have casually noticed that whenever, I see a car on a flatbed or sitting beside the highway, it is very often a VW, and very seldom an American or Asian make. VW is also a top lemon law factory buy back. I personally rejected a BMW delivery because of obvious defects.
When I was a parts vendor to manufacturers I found that GM did extensive life testing on even small inexpensive parts, Ford a little less so and Chrysler a lot less. On the other hand I feel that BMW lets the customer do the life testing and provides a longer warranty for their customer, but the second owners are on their own, this especially with plastic and other molded parts which can however be quite costly to replace and are used too extensively. In some cases the outside vendor may be paying for the failed units.
Their have also been very serious engineering errors. Porsche has had catastrophic engine failures due to bearing failures in certain engines due to poor design,. Some M car engines are prone to failure due to crankshaft or connecting rod clearance problems. The BMW M5 V10 was considered a time bomb, as well as some older M3s here.
It is a matter of degree because engineering mistakes must happen to them all even to the point of class action law suites which again are quite numerous for German cars including the wheel cracking and HPFP (in the USA).
It is my feeling that the German business model is to protect the consumer i.e. the original customer and keep them happy with a good warranty and is not as concerned after that.
I have to agree with the OP. We should expect more from these premium makes.
VW was at the top, followed by Mercedes and Volvo. ( Of course VW sells a lot more cars as well). We all have had different personal experiences. I have casually noticed that whenever, I see a car on a flatbed or sitting beside the highway, it is very often a VW, and very seldom an American or Asian make. VW is also a top lemon law factory buy back. I personally rejected a BMW delivery because of obvious defects.
When I was a parts vendor to manufacturers I found that GM did extensive life testing on even small inexpensive parts, Ford a little less so and Chrysler a lot less. On the other hand I feel that BMW lets the customer do the life testing and provides a longer warranty for their customer, but the second owners are on their own, this especially with plastic and other molded parts which can however be quite costly to replace and are used too extensively. In some cases the outside vendor may be paying for the failed units.
Their have also been very serious engineering errors. Porsche has had catastrophic engine failures due to bearing failures in certain engines due to poor design,. Some M car engines are prone to failure due to crankshaft or connecting rod clearance problems. The BMW M5 V10 was considered a time bomb, as well as some older M3s here.
It is a matter of degree because engineering mistakes must happen to them all even to the point of class action law suites which again are quite numerous for German cars including the wheel cracking and HPFP (in the USA).
It is my feeling that the German business model is to protect the consumer i.e. the original customer and keep them happy with a good warranty and is not as concerned after that.
I have to agree with the OP. We should expect more from these premium makes.
