The jab ..
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My cousins wife's father ( work that out if you wish) had the covid infection. He recovered from it. He then caught it a second time and this time round it killed him. When I spoke to her about it , she said that its not always the case that by contracting it, you cant contract it a second time and you have antibodies. He died last Thursday, so in recent time. Live in Surrey, so not away from medical care in Mongolia ............exdos said:
john-e89 said:
I’m not sure that I’ve read a post from a proper doubter per se, and given the opportunity I shall certainly partake in the vaccine being over 50. However to answer your question of course I listen to my Dr, though if my reproductive organs were on the outside of my body, I’d listen and then do some googling and then choose to completely ignore their advice :lol:
What I did take particular grievance with was Exdos’s view that if someone chooses not to partake they are selfish and want to see lots of vulnerable people die, a view perpetrated by the press. In reality it will take long while for the vaccine to populate through the country and I certainly have the inclination that if you’re under 25 you’ll probably not be vaccinated, the risk of the vaccine out ways the benefits.
and to the above poster, sorry for your loss
For me there seems to be a grey area in level of intelligence between your average Anti Vaxxer and the smartest Xmas Turkeys.
The Anti Vaxxers were out on the streets again demonstrating in Bristol - because its their "right"
To help spread a disease they do not believe affects them.
Given the opportunity I shall enjoy both a jab when the time comes and a turkey.
My money says in the longer run the anti vaxxers will not be far behind the Turkeys!
The Anti Vaxxers were out on the streets again demonstrating in Bristol - because its their "right"
To help spread a disease they do not believe affects them.
Given the opportunity I shall enjoy both a jab when the time comes and a turkey.
My money says in the longer run the anti vaxxers will not be far behind the Turkeys!
Lets put the C-19 vaccination programme into perspective and compare it to the programme for Poliomyelitis (a viral infection).
Using the resource of the Vaccine Knowledge Project of Oxford University https://vk.ovg.ox.ac.uk/vk/polio it states:
"Before a vaccine was introduced in the 1950s, epidemics would result in up to 7760 cases of paralytic polio in the UK each year, with up to 750 deaths. Once a vaccine was routinely available, cases of polio rapidly fell to very low levels. The last outbreak of polio in the UK was in the late 1970s, and the last case of naturally-occurring polio in the UK was in 1984."
Like everyone else of my generation, I don't recall anyone ever asking me or my parents if I wanted to be vaccinated, we were simply lined up in school and took our turn in line. The benefit for us all is that the disease has been all but eradicated except for three countries.
As for the risks from being vaccinated against Polio, the Vaccine Knowledge Project goes on to record:
Until 2004, the vaccine used in the UK was a live attenuated (weakened) oral polio vaccine (OPV). In a small number of cases this vaccine actually caused polio itself (30 cases in UK between 1985 and 2002).
Since the the outbreak of C-19 in the UK, the latest figures from here https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/uk/ show there have been 1,849,403 recorded cases and 64,170 deaths from C-19 within less than 1 year. It would appear that C-19 is a far greater threat than poliomyelitis.
Yes, there are slight risks from vaccinations, Anaphylaxis being a serious one, but according to the Vaccine Knowledge Project:
"In the UK between 1997 and 2003 there were a total of 130 reports of anaphylaxis following ALL immunisations. Around 117 million doses of vaccines were given in the UK during this period. This means that the overall rate of anaphylaxis is around 1 in 900,000."
The evidence is that, even if by age you are in a lower risk group, your individual risk from C-19 is far greater than any potential risk from vaccination.
Thrustyjust, I am sincerely sorry for your loss.
Using the resource of the Vaccine Knowledge Project of Oxford University https://vk.ovg.ox.ac.uk/vk/polio it states:
"Before a vaccine was introduced in the 1950s, epidemics would result in up to 7760 cases of paralytic polio in the UK each year, with up to 750 deaths. Once a vaccine was routinely available, cases of polio rapidly fell to very low levels. The last outbreak of polio in the UK was in the late 1970s, and the last case of naturally-occurring polio in the UK was in 1984."
Like everyone else of my generation, I don't recall anyone ever asking me or my parents if I wanted to be vaccinated, we were simply lined up in school and took our turn in line. The benefit for us all is that the disease has been all but eradicated except for three countries.
As for the risks from being vaccinated against Polio, the Vaccine Knowledge Project goes on to record:
Until 2004, the vaccine used in the UK was a live attenuated (weakened) oral polio vaccine (OPV). In a small number of cases this vaccine actually caused polio itself (30 cases in UK between 1985 and 2002).
Since the the outbreak of C-19 in the UK, the latest figures from here https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/uk/ show there have been 1,849,403 recorded cases and 64,170 deaths from C-19 within less than 1 year. It would appear that C-19 is a far greater threat than poliomyelitis.
Yes, there are slight risks from vaccinations, Anaphylaxis being a serious one, but according to the Vaccine Knowledge Project:
"In the UK between 1997 and 2003 there were a total of 130 reports of anaphylaxis following ALL immunisations. Around 117 million doses of vaccines were given in the UK during this period. This means that the overall rate of anaphylaxis is around 1 in 900,000."
The evidence is that, even if by age you are in a lower risk group, your individual risk from C-19 is far greater than any potential risk from vaccination.
Thrustyjust, I am sincerely sorry for your loss.
A
Anonymous
Guest
I've come late to this party..I'm old enough to remember Polio, I was one of the first in our area to be vaccinated for this, my parents good friends' daughter was one of the last to catch Polio, watching her struggle with the metal cage supporting her legs was sobering even for a child! She didn't live that long..
The point being is its not just the dead from COVID, the long COVID people are suffering terribly in some cases and present a long term acute burden on the NHS..
The point being is its not just the dead from COVID, the long COVID people are suffering terribly in some cases and present a long term acute burden on the NHS..
For those too young to remember Polio take a look at this: https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/iron-lungs-polio-1930s-1950s/
The "Iron Lung" was the origins of the modern ventilator, much seen in use with hospitalised C-19 victims.
The "Iron Lung" was the origins of the modern ventilator, much seen in use with hospitalised C-19 victims.
exdos said:For those too young to remember Polio take a look at this: https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/iron-lungs-polio-1930s-1950s/
The "Iron Lung" was the origins of the modern respirator, much seen in use with hospitalised C-19 victims.
You mean ventilator
A
Anonymous
Guest
mgrlane
I'm not sure whether you are being obtuse, an agent provocateur or incapable of assimilating more than one concept in your mind at the same time?
Public health initiatives are driven by the cost/benefit equation to society as a whoie, based on the then medical capablities. the resources available and the consequences as a whole to the greater society of either taking action or not taking action.
So the reason we vaccinate people generally is that benefit to some of those vaccinated is significant in that it stops them from having a medically expensive / resouce intensive (for the nation) intervention and personally serious or fatal illness, and, the process helps supress /eliminate the continued existence of the infection, so that for others who did not receive the treatment and/or those whom the vaccine is ineffective they may not be exposed to the conditions that cause harm.
In the act of vaccination the benefit to society as a whole is that cost and effort of vaccination offsets the depletion of scarce medical resouces, treating those that became ill due to no vaccination of them or those who they interact with, thereby allowing others, whose outcomes are not directly impacted by vaccination to have speedier / more extensive treatment than otherwise could be given.
The health service is the ultimate 'no magic resource tree'...if you are burning up resources on COVID then you can't treat cancer patients / repair broken bones / do transplants etc etc
Like all equations of life, there is no one simple unifying equation..some vaccinations like measles have a very high effectiveness for both prevention and transmission, others like the common flu vaccines are less effective for a variety of complex reasons.
If we can say, in the case of a less effective vaccine that we only save 50% of people clogging up the NHS rather than 100% of people clogging up the NHS then still means more resources for those that need those resources.
To contrast the effectivness of one vaccine with another and then say that people shouldn't be vaccinated as a general concept seems perverse?
The fundamental raison d'etre of vaccination is through the vaccination of the many you save the few..that's just how it works with all contagious diseases. In the act of saving the few, you remove those few from the the other few that desperately need medical treatment not to just exist but to have an exceptable quality of life for the remainding parts of their life.
Of course if the effects of vaccination outweighed the benefits why would we do it..it it was so we would do spot treatment..but this and so many other diseases are not best treated by 100,000s of spot treatments..each costing much and depriving many..the answer to this, and the only answer in the forseeable future is vaccination..that's why girls are now having vaccinations for cancer creating viruses..the number who are going to die is relatively small, but if you can give all girls a vaccine that saves even 10,000 people PA from a horrible death why wouldn't you do it?
Finally the other reason that its an ill balanced argument about flu vs covid vaccinations is that we know the fatality rate for covid is about 100 times higher than for flu..your 'facts' are incorrect by some way..
I'm not sure whether you are being obtuse, an agent provocateur or incapable of assimilating more than one concept in your mind at the same time?
Public health initiatives are driven by the cost/benefit equation to society as a whoie, based on the then medical capablities. the resources available and the consequences as a whole to the greater society of either taking action or not taking action.
So the reason we vaccinate people generally is that benefit to some of those vaccinated is significant in that it stops them from having a medically expensive / resouce intensive (for the nation) intervention and personally serious or fatal illness, and, the process helps supress /eliminate the continued existence of the infection, so that for others who did not receive the treatment and/or those whom the vaccine is ineffective they may not be exposed to the conditions that cause harm.
In the act of vaccination the benefit to society as a whole is that cost and effort of vaccination offsets the depletion of scarce medical resouces, treating those that became ill due to no vaccination of them or those who they interact with, thereby allowing others, whose outcomes are not directly impacted by vaccination to have speedier / more extensive treatment than otherwise could be given.
The health service is the ultimate 'no magic resource tree'...if you are burning up resources on COVID then you can't treat cancer patients / repair broken bones / do transplants etc etc
Like all equations of life, there is no one simple unifying equation..some vaccinations like measles have a very high effectiveness for both prevention and transmission, others like the common flu vaccines are less effective for a variety of complex reasons.
If we can say, in the case of a less effective vaccine that we only save 50% of people clogging up the NHS rather than 100% of people clogging up the NHS then still means more resources for those that need those resources.
To contrast the effectivness of one vaccine with another and then say that people shouldn't be vaccinated as a general concept seems perverse?
The fundamental raison d'etre of vaccination is through the vaccination of the many you save the few..that's just how it works with all contagious diseases. In the act of saving the few, you remove those few from the the other few that desperately need medical treatment not to just exist but to have an exceptable quality of life for the remainding parts of their life.
Of course if the effects of vaccination outweighed the benefits why would we do it..it it was so we would do spot treatment..but this and so many other diseases are not best treated by 100,000s of spot treatments..each costing much and depriving many..the answer to this, and the only answer in the forseeable future is vaccination..that's why girls are now having vaccinations for cancer creating viruses..the number who are going to die is relatively small, but if you can give all girls a vaccine that saves even 10,000 people PA from a horrible death why wouldn't you do it?
Finally the other reason that its an ill balanced argument about flu vs covid vaccinations is that we know the fatality rate for covid is about 100 times higher than for flu..your 'facts' are incorrect by some way..
A
Anonymous
Guest
I love the strategy of the 'numbers don't lie' approach..
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/deathsregisteredweeklyinenglandandwalesprovisional/weekending27november2020
The latest commentary from the ONS as an illustration of the fact that interpretation is important as it states (for this most current week)
In Week 48, the number of deaths registered was 20.3% above the five-year average (2,099 deaths higher).
Of the deaths registered in Week 48, 3,040 mentioned "novel coronavirus (COVID-19)", accounting for 24.4% of all deaths in England and Wales; an increase of 343 deaths compared with Week 47.
Of the 3,040 deaths involving COVID-19, 2,637 had this recorded as the underlying cause of death (86.7%).
Of the 2,693 deaths that involved Influenza and Pneumonia, 285 had this recorded as the underlying cause of death (10.6%)
So a more representative commentary for that week could be
A lot more people are dying this week than the same week averaged out over the last 5 years +20.3%
Of those people dying 3,040 with covid involved, at least 2,637 86.7% had covid as the main cause
In the same period 285 had influenze and pneumonia as the main cause of death 10.6%
Of course some people who died of influenza and pneumonia would have had covid as not all people who die are tested for covid, whilst in contrast those labelled as dying from covid were diagnosed positively as having covid within the last 28 days..
So of the 12,471 who did die for all reasons flu/pneumonia as a main cause was 285/12,471 ie 2.2% (and in fact some of those were hastened on their way with coivd, so 'pure' flu cases would be lower...
On the other hand of the 12,471 who died 3,040 did have covid and it was either the main cause or didn't help.. ie 24.3%
So at a time of year when you do expect a lot of people sadly to be dying from respiratory diseases 11 times (at least) as many people were dying from covid than flu..
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/deathsregisteredweeklyinenglandandwalesprovisional/weekending27november2020
The latest commentary from the ONS as an illustration of the fact that interpretation is important as it states (for this most current week)
In Week 48, the number of deaths registered was 20.3% above the five-year average (2,099 deaths higher).
Of the deaths registered in Week 48, 3,040 mentioned "novel coronavirus (COVID-19)", accounting for 24.4% of all deaths in England and Wales; an increase of 343 deaths compared with Week 47.
Of the 3,040 deaths involving COVID-19, 2,637 had this recorded as the underlying cause of death (86.7%).
Of the 2,693 deaths that involved Influenza and Pneumonia, 285 had this recorded as the underlying cause of death (10.6%)
So a more representative commentary for that week could be
A lot more people are dying this week than the same week averaged out over the last 5 years +20.3%
Of those people dying 3,040 with covid involved, at least 2,637 86.7% had covid as the main cause
In the same period 285 had influenze and pneumonia as the main cause of death 10.6%
Of course some people who died of influenza and pneumonia would have had covid as not all people who die are tested for covid, whilst in contrast those labelled as dying from covid were diagnosed positively as having covid within the last 28 days..
So of the 12,471 who did die for all reasons flu/pneumonia as a main cause was 285/12,471 ie 2.2% (and in fact some of those were hastened on their way with coivd, so 'pure' flu cases would be lower...
On the other hand of the 12,471 who died 3,040 did have covid and it was either the main cause or didn't help.. ie 24.3%
So at a time of year when you do expect a lot of people sadly to be dying from respiratory diseases 11 times (at least) as many people were dying from covid than flu..
mgrlane said:
The figures from the ONS are found here: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...19comparedwithdeathsfrominfluenzaandpneumonia
If you click on the green "xlsx" download button you'll find that your figures are massively WRONG!
The actual total numbers of deaths in England & Wales from Influenza and Pneumonia combined for the past 10 years as given in Table 5 are as follows:
2010 25,839
2011 25,868
2012 26,365
2013 26,625
2014 25,909
2015 29,451
2016 27,927
2017 27,858
2018 29,103
2019 25,406
In comparison the total number of deaths from C-19 from January to August 2020 is recorded as 48,168.
You will never understand this issue whilst you continue to use incorrect figures.
It could possibly create another problem although Im sure I read somewhere that since the beginning of this year it has mutated over 1400 times.TitanTim said:Let's hope the vaccine works against the new strain of virus announced today otherwise press restart for 2021
Tim.