The break up of the UK - anyone bothered?

[Adamski]

A few things that cement my NO vote....

1. SNP lied and said they received legal advice about separating from the UK. They never got legal advice. But they said they did. They attempted court action to stop their lies going public.

2. North Sea oil revenues are very volatile. I have yet to see a solid business case that addresses the cost of separation, national debt and ongoing provision of services. Nothing stacks up. Costs of establishing new public bodies etc hasn't been covered.

3. SNP are welcoming migrants into Scotland. Buying votes keep them in power, and at the same time trying to score political points by having a "better" immigration policy than Westminster.

4. EU membership. Another fantasy. It's pretty clear to everyone APART from the SNP that Scotland would NOT be an EU member automatically (anyone remember the Spanish PM saying he would veto it?). 2 separate legal experts have said that the 18 month negotiation period stated by SNP is a extremely unlikely. It might take 3 years, possibly 4.

5. 16 and 17 year olds being allowed to vote. Bravo SNP. No doubt they'll play Braveheart on national TV every night for a week before the vote so sway the youngsters into voting yes. Desperate really - changing the goal posts for an important vote.

6. No answer on the £££. If SNP want REAL independence, why have someone else control your interest rates?

7. SNP have confirmed that they want: to keep the ££££, keep the monarch, have a currency union etc etc. All sounds extremely similar to what they have now.

In summary, I think Alex Salmond is the least trustworthy person in the UK. However, I'll take my hat off to him, as he is very good at brainwashing.

 

[shotbybothsides]

Some good and reasoned arguments here, as you would expect from the forum.
I'm an Englishman, with some sympathy for the Scots wanting independance,
It's a classic heart vs head question for them.
For a proud nation to effectively admit that it can't go it alone in the world is a big thing to take, even if common sense suggests we are better together.

I hope they see through the hype, and personal and political agendas and we stay together.

 

[Sketchley]

Trouble is Alex Salmond has to do this, the SNP has the majority in the Scottish Parliment and the party stated goal is that of independance. No way can he not do it, even if he knows he is going to lose and that if he did win it wouldn't work. Once the Scots vote against it he can simply carry on extracting more power for the Scottish Parliment and get happily re-elected safe in the knowledge he can under deliver as he doesn't have full independance.

It's all too easy to blame others for your failings and state that independance would solve the problems, rather than look internally at what might be the cause. I do find it intresting that not many people point out simularites between SNP and UKIP. They both blame the lack of independance as the source of the problems and independance as the cure, with very little other the retoric to back it up, they have very different policy on immigration, but it would appear that being a nationalist in Scotland is a lot more acceptable than in the UK.

 

[exdos]

In summary, I think Alex Salmond is the least trustworthy person in the UK. However, I'll take my hat off to him, as he is very good at brainwashing.

I agree 100% with your assessments and Salmond has done brilliant job with the SNP. But who else is there in the SNP to form a serious government? I think he is a classic example of a politician on the make for himself. He'll be hoping to receive all the "sweeteners" from any source (foreign nations and businesses) wishing to court him to use a newly independent country within Europe. In reality, Alex Salmond IS the SNP and Scotland would become his personal fiefdom, which he would share with no one else. It's a truly audacious and cunning plan!

I understand that part of The Plan is to set up as a low-tax base for big business, akin to Lichtenstein and Luxembourg, and hope to encourage the UK financial services sector to move from London to Scotland.

 

[Ewazix]

My head says keep the Union but Billy Connolly probably speaks for my heart.

"The English would surely vote for Scottish independence"

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/iainmartin1/100208507/dont-let-the-english-have-a-say-in-scottish-independence-or-thatll-be-the-end-of-the-union/

 

[indizee]

Economically it would be a disaster. Scotland doesn't have the long term ability to survive alone and England would still have to support it.

An Englishman who has worked in Scotland.
Independence means exactly that. You go it alone. I would vote for no help for an independent country sponging off England.
I love Scotland and it's people are great, we are one nation, Great Britain.
If you want the immigrants, have em' IMOH

 

[chris g]

As an Englishman in England, I say YES, have independence.

Im happy with Scotland going independent, I think that our monarchy, currency and global agreements are ours to decide who gets to share them though, and Id vote not to have Scotland keeping our currency

I do think that Scotland could make a go of it alone, but I wonder whether the motivation for the decision is based more upon career aspirations of a few rather than whats good for the country.

As a northerner i get the sense that decisions are made in London without any interest on how that impacts on the north and I'm sure Scotland feels the same, Id let Scotland, Wales and NI have independence if they want it but I cant help thinking that the man in the street gets a better deal for being part of the UK

 

[Stuart Truman]

It'll be Yorkshire and Cornwall next, then all the counties. If we're going to try and undo ancient history there's going to be a long and troubled time ahead.

If we had less of a bunch of w@nkers in all the parliaments and had some people we could all get behind, we'd not be having this conversation.

 

[chris g]

It'll be Yorkshire and Cornwall next, then all the counties. If we're going to try and undo ancient history there's going to be a long and troubled time ahead.

If we had less of a bunch of w@nkers in all the parliaments and had some people we could all get behind, we'd not be having this conversation.

Dont worry, OG will be along in a minute to tell us that we get the politicians we deserve

 

[original guvnor]

It'll be Yorkshire and Cornwall next, then all the counties. If we're going to try and undo ancient history there's going to be a long and troubled time ahead.

If we had less of a bunch of w@nkers in all the parliaments and had some people we could all get behind, we'd not be having this conversation.

Dont worry, OG will be along in a minute to tell us that we get the politicians we deserve

Am I that predictable Chris?

 

[bigdog]

You get the politicians you deserve. :lol:

I wish it were that simple. It costs so much to run a political campaign, The era of an average citizen politician trying serve ones country then going back to their private life was a thing of the past a hundred years ago or more. About the only choice we have these days is trying to pick the least evil amongst all the evil doer's that are seeking power and glory over service to the electorate.

 

[original guvnor]

Actually I am in favour of Scottish independence. Not because I have any great anti-Scottish feelings, quite the contrary actually, it's a beautiful country with fantastic people and spirit. No my reasons are :-

1) We now have a constitutional mess created by the last government with devolution. Scottish MP's sit in Westminster and vote on legislation that applies only to England and yet Scotland now has it's own parliament with powers to make policy in several areas. It's a 'cake and eat it' scenario. Scottish MP's should be barred from being Prime Minister or Chancellor in future and prevented from voting on legislation or debates that do not directly affect Scottish constituents.
2) England wouldn't have voted in a Labour government in Labour election victories in 1964 and 1974, and in the last election, David Cameron would've had a majority of 19 seats without Scotland. So a country we have less and less say in, is unduly influencing the will of the English electorate. That is undemocratic.
3) I don't feel British. I am English and then European, not 'British'. I don't have any great affinity with a 'United Kingdom'. I think Scotland is perfectly capable of being a separate country provided assistance is given by the EU to manage its transition. After all why is it any different to countries like Ireland or Luxembourg for example? It just needs a proper transitional arrangement to help it build the sort of strong institutions it needs to self-govern.

So I hope the Scottish vote 'yes' but I am pretty sure they will resoundingly reject independence when the polls are closed.

 

[mcbeee]

I'm a wee bit Scottish, a little Irish and 75% English and it would just be odd to break it up (English accent). Then again, what's wrong with it ? ( Scottish brogue )
What, where, who? Screw the *&^%%* bast*rds. (gotta be the Irishman in me 8) )

Sentiment aside, it's like a teenager demanding to leave home and then the "Holy Sh*t, I can't afford this...!!" moment happens. Quebec does the same thing here, they make noise, they garner votes, they blackmail the govt .... and we all know they can't leave because they have NO MONEY. I would be sad to see the change but if the Scots can afford it then I say let em go. It was their country to begin with...

but

When three people share a nice house, it's easy to pay the mortgage and the food bill, try it with one person, it's not quite as easy.

 

[mcbeee]

Actually I am in favour of Scottish independence. Not because I have any great anti-Scottish feelings, quite the contrary actually, it's a beautiful country with fantastic people and spirit. No my reasons are :-

1) We now have a constitutional mess created by the last government with devolution. Scottish MP's sit in Westminster and vote on legislation that applies only to England and yet Scotland now has it's own parliament with powers to make policy in several areas. It's a 'cake and eat it' scenario. Scottish MP's should be barred from being Prime Minister or Chancellor in future and prevented from voting on legislation or debates that do not directly affect Scottish constituents.
2) England wouldn't have voted in a Labour government in Labour election victories in 1964 and 1974, and in the last election, David Cameron would've had a majority of 19 seats without Scotland. So a country we have less and less say in, is unduly influencing the will of the English electorate. That is undemocratic.
.

This almost exactly what we have in Canada with Quebec ..... Change the names and shout "Bingo".

 

[Adamski]

Actually I am in favour of Scottish independence. Not because I have any great anti-Scottish feelings, quite the contrary actually, it's a beautiful country with fantastic people and spirit. No my reasons are :-

1) We now have a constitutional mess created by the last government with devolution. Scottish MP's sit in Westminster and vote on legislation that applies only to England and yet Scotland now has it's own parliament with powers to make policy in several areas. It's a 'cake and eat it' scenario. Scottish MP's should be barred from being Prime Minister or Chancellor in future and prevented from voting on legislation or debates that do not directly affect Scottish constituents.
2) England wouldn't have voted in a Labour government in Labour election victories in 1964 and 1974, and in the last election, David Cameron would've had a majority of 19 seats without Scotland. So a country we have less and less say in, is unduly influencing the will of the English electorate. That is undemocratic.
3) I don't feel British. I am English and then European, not 'British'. I don't have any great affinity with a 'United Kingdom'. I think Scotland is perfectly capable of being a separate country provided assistance is given by the EU to manage its transition. After all why is it any different to countries like Ireland or Luxembourg for example? It just needs a proper transitional arrangement to help it build the sort of strong institutions it needs to self-govern.

So I hope the Scottish vote 'yes' but I am pretty sure they will resoundingly reject independence when the polls are closed.

I totally understand where you're coming from here. For me though, the answer is to cut the unnecessary Scottish Parliament out all together. I was against it before powers were devolved to Scotland, and still feel that it's pointless gravy train for greedy Scottish politicians like Salmond.

I do feel British, and state it as my nationality whenever I'm asked.

I dont want independence, and to have it thrust upon me would be a great shame. I would probably look at moving to England in the event of a yes vote. Even the idea of Scottish independence worries the living daylights out of me....

 

[original guvnor]

Actually I am in favour of Scottish independence. Not because I have any great anti-Scottish feelings, quite the contrary actually, it's a beautiful country with fantastic people and spirit. No my reasons are :-

1) We now have a constitutional mess created by the last government with devolution. Scottish MP's sit in Westminster and vote on legislation that applies only to England and yet Scotland now has it's own parliament with powers to make policy in several areas. It's a 'cake and eat it' scenario. Scottish MP's should be barred from being Prime Minister or Chancellor in future and prevented from voting on legislation or debates that do not directly affect Scottish constituents.
2) England wouldn't have voted in a Labour government in Labour election victories in 1964 and 1974, and in the last election, David Cameron would've had a majority of 19 seats without Scotland. So a country we have less and less say in, is unduly influencing the will of the English electorate. That is undemocratic.
3) I don't feel British. I am English and then European, not 'British'. I don't have any great affinity with a 'United Kingdom'. I think Scotland is perfectly capable of being a separate country provided assistance is given by the EU to manage its transition. After all why is it any different to countries like Ireland or Luxembourg for example? It just needs a proper transitional arrangement to help it build the sort of strong institutions it needs to self-govern.

So I hope the Scottish vote 'yes' but I am pretty sure they will resoundingly reject independence when the polls are closed.

I totally understand where you're coming from here. For me though, the answer is to cut the unnecessary Scottish Parliament out all together. I was against it before powers were devolved to Scotland, and still feel that it's pointless gravy train for greedy Scottish politicians like Salmond.

I do feel British, and state it as my nationality whenever I'm asked.

I dont want independence, and to have it thrust upon me would be a great shame. I would probably look at moving to England in the event of a yes vote. Even the idea of Scottish independence worries the living daylights out of me....

You may well be right there Adam. Devolution was the proverbial cat being let out of the bag though, and I'm not sure that can be easily rectified. It has certainly hardened attitude among a lot of English people I speak to. Perhaps that is a contributory factor as to why I feel the concept of a 'United Kingdom' is hard to embrace now.

 

[chris g]

Am I that predictable Chris?

its a comment that sticks in my mind

 

[inkey$]

On the issue of paliamentary geographic location, its worrying to hear some people say they dont feel the government focuses enough of them. We're not exactly a large country and a centralised base has to exist somewhere so I dont see why London being that place is really an issue unless there are clear examples I havent seen.

Dont get me wrong, I'm all for a caring, sharing nation where everybody feels great and issues at local levels are looked at - but isnt that what local elections are for? For the people to vote with their feet?

And on the issue of independance; as an Englishman in England I say dont do it if it's not been properly thought through and crucially, worked at with the English so the best answers and solutions for all can be presented for the people to vote on. I dont get the impression this plan has that in place.

 

[swanicyouth]

I don't think it will work well. Here in the USA, it would be like if Texas wanted to become a country. The UK needs to stay together. What if there is another crazy war???

The UK seems to be the only people we can rely on to fight the world's nut cases with us and who won't cave under fear or pressure.

 

[markeg]

So, hypothetically speaking, if Scotland goes independent, and then starts the process for membership of the EU, does that mean all Scots living in England, Wales or NI will have to apply for residency in England?