Syria

What a relief. Do you know how hard it is to type with a helmet, gas mask & flak vest on? I can't see didly squat, my neck hurts and it's hot. The wife is looking at me in a strange way as well.
 
bigdog said:
What a relief. Do you know how hard it is to type with a helmet, gas mask & flak vest on? I can't see didly squat, my neck hurts and it's hot. The wife is looking at me in a strange way as well.
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Whatever floats your boat... :D
 
bigdog said:
What a relief. Do you know how hard it is to type with a helmet, gas mask & flak vest on? I can't see didly squat, my neck hurts and it's hot. The wife is looking at me in a strange way as well.
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I wouldnt get changed yet....even though the voice of reason has spoken and Cameron is floundering around trying to salvage something from the humiliation of defeat.

The military action on Syria will go ahead with the ultimate goal Iran getting closer.

The main stream media is in overdrive trying to get the sheeples backings with propaganda stories galore.

Incendiary bomb dropped on school.

USA and Israel killed thousands of civilians with them in Fallujiah and Gaza, where was your fucking condemnation there BBC???
 
It was an appalling decision and one we will come to regret.

It's what happens I'm afraid when you weaken a state through a coalition government.
 
its the best decision I have seen us make in a long while - i fear that more incendiary bombs in schools will force a rethink but for now im going to be gullible and believe that democracy happened and the voice of the people was heard through the mouths of our elected leaders.



id like to see a vote in the US too....
 
+1 - at least a democratic process has been used, and the decision will be adhered to, for now. I am personally very pleased to see us not going in at this point.

However I am realistic - the US are going to have a pop for sure, and if Syria (or anyone else) fire back in a serious way then we will end up dragged in...
 
Bing said:
+1 - at least a democratic process has been used, and the decision will be adhered to, for now. I am personally very pleased to see us not going in at this point.

However I am realistic - the US are going to have a pop for sure, and if Syria (or anyone else) fire back in a serious way then we will end up dragged in...
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let the us have a pop on their own. even Cameron isn't stupid enough to go against parliament and go in with the yanks. i just hope he doesnt go in via the back door buy doing somehting like providing all the back support. something where he can say they didnt actually drop a bomb/invade etc but we were helping all the same.

whats happened to france in all of this? surely they have some opinion
 
TitanTim said:
Just pedal back to the 60s and the Americans dropping Nepam on Vietnamese civilians.

Tim.
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amongst the conservative estimates there were 1 million Vietnamese that learned all about how we derive peace from war, and unexploded shells still have little reminders for today's generation which demonstrates what the US really think about chemical war and innocent death
 
Quite thought provoking piece here, as if written from Al-Assad himself, worth a read.

President Bashar Al-Assad said:
Well, here we are. It’s been two years of fighting, over 100,000 people are dead, there are no signs of this war ending, and a week ago I used chemical weapons on my own people. If you don’t do anything about it, thousands of Syrians are going to die. If you do something about it, thousands of Syrians are going to die. Morally speaking, you’re on the hook for those deaths no matter how you look at it.

So, it’s your move, America. What’s it going to be?

I’ve looked at your options, and I’m going to be honest here, I feel for you. Not exactly an embarrassment of riches you’ve got to choose from, strategy-wise. I mean, my God, there are just so many variables to consider, so many possible paths to choose, each fraught with incredible peril, and each leading back to the very real, very likely possibility that no matter what you do it’s going to backfire in a big, big way. It’s a good old-fashioned mess, is what this is! And now, you have to make some sort of decision that you can live with.

So, where do I begin? Well, this is just the tip of the iceberg, but let’s start with the fact that my alliance with Russia and China means that nothing you decide to do will have the official support of the UN Security Council. So, right off the bat, I’ve already eliminated the possibility of a legally sound united coalition like in Libya or the First Gulf War. Boom. Gone. Off the table.

Now, let’s say you’re okay with that, and you decide to go ahead with, oh, I don’t know, a bombing campaign. Now, personally, I can see how that might seem like an attractive option for you. No boots on the ground, it sends a clear message, you could cripple some of my government’s infrastructure, and it’s a quick, clean, easy way to punish me and make you look strong in the face of my unimaginable tyranny. But let’s get real here. Any bombing campaign capable of being truly devastating to my regime would also end up killing a ton of innocent civilians, as such things always do, which I imagine is the kind of outcome you people would feel very guilty about. You know, seeing as you are so up in arms to begin with about innocent Syrians dying. Plus, you’d stoke a lot of anti-American hatred and quite possibly create a whole new generation of Syrian-born jihadists ready to punish the United States for its reckless warmongering and yadda yadda yadda.

Okay, what else? Well, you could play small-ball and hope that limited airstrikes to a few of my key military installations will send me the message to refrain from using chemical weapons again, but, c’mon, check me out: I’m ruthless, I’m desperate, and I’m going to do everything I can to stay in power. I’d use chemical weapons again in a heartbeat. You know that. And I know you know that. Hell, I want to help you guys out here, but you gotta be realistic. Trust me, I am incapable of being taught a lesson at this point. Got it? I am too far gone. Way too far gone.

Oh, and I know some of you think a no-fly zone will do the trick, but we both know you can’t stomach the estimated $1 billion a month that would cost, so wave bye-bye to that one, too.

Moving on.

I suppose you could always, you know, not respond with military force at all. But how can you do that? I pumped sarin gas into the lungs of my own people, for God’s sake! You can’t just let me get away with that, can you? I mean, I guess you easily could, and spare yourself all of this headache, but then you would probably lose any of your remaining moral high ground on the world stage and make everything from the Geneva Conventions to America’s reputation as a beacon for freedom and democracy around the world look like a complete sham.

And, hey, as long as we’re just throwing stuff out there, let’s consider a ground invasion for a moment. Now, even if you could reasonably fund a ground invasion, which I’m pretty sure you can’t, what exactly would such an invasion accomplish in the long term? I suppose it’s possible that you could come in and sweep me out the door and that would be the end of it. It’s possible. You know, like, in the sense that seeing a majestic white Bengal tiger in the wild is possible. Or, more likely, you could find yourself entrenched in a full-blown civil war that drags on for 15 years and sets off further turmoil in the rest of the region, leading to even more dead bodies for your country and mine, and even more virulent hatred of America. In fact, boy, maybe this is the one option that should be totally off the table.

Oh, and speaking of me being toppled from power, let’s say, just for fun, that tomorrow I were to somehow be dethroned. Who’s in charge? Half of these rebel groups refuse to work with one another and it’s getting harder to tell which ones are actually just Islamic extremists looking to fill a potential power vacuum. We’ve got Christians, Sunnis, and Shias all poised to fight one another for control should I fall. You want to be the ones sorting through that mess when you’re trying to build a new government? I didn’t think so.

So, all in all, quite the pickle you’re in, isn’t it? I have to say, I do not envy you here. Really curious to see where you go with this one.

I’ll leave you with this: I am insane. Not insane enough to generate worldwide unanimity that I cannot remain in charge of my own country. That would make this a lot easier. No, unfortunately, I’m just sane and stable enough to remain in power and devise cunning military and political strategies while at the same time adhering to a standard of morality that only the most perverse and sociopathic among us would be capable of adopting. But nevertheless, I am insane, so do with that information what you will.

Long story short, I’m going to keep doing my best to hold on to my country no matter what the cost. If that means bombing entire towns, murdering small children, or shooting at UN weapons inspectors, so be it. I’m in this for the long haul. And you will do...whatever it is you’re going to do, which is totally up to you. Your call.

Anyway, let me know what you decide. I’ll be waiting.
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not proven facts, but always worth reading another position

http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/may/6/syrian-rebels-used-sarin-nerve-gas-not-assads-regi/
 
original guvnor said:
It was an appalling decision and one we will come to regret.

It's what happens I'm afraid when you weaken a state through a coalition government.
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I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. There's no proof who fired off the chemical weapon, only that one was used. Given the rebels are using weapons seized from the Assad regime and deserters who knows what they've got. All that has been said by the weapons inspectors is that they can't prove who didn't do it. Well blow me down they can't prove a negative, what a surprise. So all we have is a probability. You own an sports car, so do I. Let's have a parking ticket on the probability that we occasionally speed. Not going to happen.

If and when there is proof positive, the organisation that we signed up to, the UN, can make a decision. Yes, they may be bogged down in bureaucracy, but that's the organisation we committed to. I'd rather trust Kofi Annan than Cameron or, regrettably now, Obama to do the right thing. Recent human rights atrocities in many other countries go ignored because either there is no oil, or no trade benefit from doing something about it. Let's at least be consistent.

Between 115 and 125,000 civilians have died in Iraq since we invaded on false pretenses. It's about time our politicians grew a pair and stood up for themselves and the majority of the UK population who don't want our involvement. Fair play to them for doing so.

As to coalition government. Germany has been a coalition state since years, they have the strongest economy of all European states, and a remarkable lack of interest in getting involved in wars, learned the hard way. A coalition gives the people better representation than the system we normally have here. Let's have full proportional representation as per the German system and a permanent coalition. The 650 idiots who think they rule us rather than represent or serve us might actually come up with some sensible decisions.
 
i also think Parliament and democracy have won the day.

100K people have died in Syria which is appalling... but 500K have died in the Sudan cival war - many more dying each day - but you dont hear this in the media - or plans for the west to act :thumbsdown:
 
The west always gets criticised by muslims when we intervene in their internal problems or try to enforce regime change.

Why then won't the Arab League do something about Syria's woes, and use some of the oil wealth they are sitting on for something useful?
 
i also think Parliament and democracy have won the day.
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+1

Getting involved in a another countries civil war is never going to end well, No matter how horrific the news coming out of Syria is, you can bet your bottom dollar if we do end up involved, we will be viewed as "Crusaders"by both backers of the syrian goverment and the rebels.....

Also, I don't see any mention of it here, Why aren't the Arab league taking a leading role?, they're calling for action....And aware of the consequences!
 
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