SGA: Turn your traction control off in the snow!

GuidoK said:
You still don't get it: it is not me being uncomfortable with driving with the systems off, it is me being uncomfortable with other people driving with dsc off.
Sure, when everybody is called Chris Harris in the UK or Sebastian Loeb in France, there is nothing wrong, but the fact is that 99% of the drivers have no idea what they do behind the wheel. They have no idea how a car even works (we've all seen the bmw pictures with snow chains on the front wheels etc....)
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I DO get it - you don't.
You don't have to be Sebastian Loeb, or Chris Harris.
You just need to have LEARNT how to drive in adverse conditions.
It's really not that hard, and there's obviously benefits in learning - look at the Finland driving license requirements for example - they do NOT grant licenses to people who cannot regain control a car that's gone out of control. They HAVE to have had experience driving on a skidpan.
Why do you think that is - especially as almost all cars nowadays have at least got ABS, and most have some form of traction control?
It's because you need to learn how to deal with driving in adverse conditions and that it's NOT safe to RELY on safety features.

GuidoK said:
sk93 said:
Relying on driving aids when conditions change is just a ticking time bomb that may just blow up in your face.
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So if all abs systems, esp systems etc are disabeled and banned from cars, the traffic gets safer? I dont think so (in fact I know so, and all traffic safety organisations in the world tend to agree on that as these systems are obligatory in a large part of the world for new cars that come on the market for quite a few years now)
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Did I say ban them? I certainly did not. What I actually said was don't RELY on them.
You cannot replace driver experience with electronics.
Sure, they CAN help you get out of a bad situation, but learning not to get into them in the first place is obviously better.
and also learning what to do when things do feel like they're about to get out of control is also better.

TBH - I'm not bothering to argue anymore.
You're entitled to your oppinion, and ALL advise on the internet should only ever be taken with a slight pinch of salt regardless of the source.

But I will leave it with this final comment - I've been driving for 15 years, have spent time driving in countries with much larger amounts of snowfall than what is typical in the UK, and I've had far less problems with traction control turned off, than I ever have with it left on.
What that means, who knows.
I personally don't care to provide further factual evidence, recommendations for the makers of the systems and cars, or other such evidence.
All I hope is whatever you do, it works out safe for you.
 
I couldn't reverse my 120d off my drive a few year ago. Turned off the DSC (or whatever its called) and I was able to get the car out.

It is a top tip for getting the car moving for sure.
 
sk93 said:
Sure, it'll work most of the time, but the one time it doesn't, it could kill you.
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Yes and if you turn it off, all the time that it worked, it could now kill you. What a trade-off :lol:
Also BMW doesn't advise you to turn it off, it advises you to turn it off when you don't have enough traction. There is a big difference. It is to get you moving if you're stuck. Not to drive the complete distance through corners etc.
That's why I said: turn it back on once you're on top of the hill, and thàt is wat BMW advises. Not to continue your journey with everything off (in fact turning off everything completely is something they don't advise at all, they advise to use the dtc setting)

It is like you said yourself with that 640i driver. He can't grasp the fact that traction control is prohibiting him from moving. Do you trust such a guy cornering towards you with all safety systems off?
You know, nicely drifting onto your lane because he isn't paying attention and not capable enough to dose the throttle in a heavy powerful car? good luck with avoiding him.
Or do you want DSC to limit power and intervene by controlling the brakes so that he stays in his own lane?

I know what I want, but apparently you want a new car :rofl:
 
Don't get cross sk93. I am pretty sure we all understand your points.

I have been driving in snow a while now. Probably less than a hundred hours in whiteout conditions but I have paid my dues on interesting surfaces with decent visibility over the last thirty years. I always experiment when I get a new vehicle. - You may have noticed that my avatar lists me as living in Narnia. :)

It's as you say, traction control hampers progress, sometimes. But personally I prefer other drivers have their traction control switched on until they learn not to. A blanket suggestion that stability electronics be disabled in poor conditions is to my mind too optimistic a measure when dealing with inexperienced drivers.

And I find the electronics are pretty good. I have had them intervene a few times this year and I have been generally quite impressed by the stability gained by 'intelligent' braking when I have allowed the zed to step out a little. In combination with Alpins the zed is quite capable in snow and it is not worse on ice.

Anyway. Enjoy yourself.
 
Can we stop giving 640 drivers a bad name please! :D

I remember a few years ago in the old 330d in the snow and back then I didn't realise that you had to push the DSC button once and then hold it down again for a few seconds to switch it all off because I had only pushed the button once and I said to the mrs that the car just isn't behaving like a RWD car and the electronics were just getting in the way of everything.

I mostly had the traction off in my E92 M3/Z4M because I just didn't like how much it held the power back as soon as it detected the wheels were loosing grip and it just felt really alien to me after 6 years in TVR without any driving aids and I just thought the aids got in the way to be honest.

In certain situations they can be a benefit but I think they mainly give a false sense of security and its far better to learn how a car feels to drive without them.
 
I'm a DRIVING GOD so I just disable everything, including ABS and drive all year round on heavily worn Pilot Sport Cups :driving:

If it wasn't for my 'powerful-build', I'd have been an F1 driver and won the title many, many times

:worshipbmw:

:tumbleweed:
 
Not sure even my skillz would have got a Z4 through this today...DSC/DTC/winter tyres or not...

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GuidoK said:
I know what I want, but apparently you want a new car :rofl:
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Yep - fifteen years of driving in all conditions in a wide variety of cars, with precisely zero collisions proves that point.


Let me be clear, I'm not suggesting EVERYONE turns off the traction control.
I definitely believe there are more muppets on the road now than decent drivers.
Those muppets should be given as many safety features as possible, including one that refuses to let the car start in adverse conditions.

But I had assumed everyone on here was at least a capable driver.
I don't expect everyone to have experience in snow, but I kinda expected them to have halfway-decent throttle control and to have halfway-decent judgement when it comes to judging appropriate speed for the section of road in front of them.
As that's all it takes.
If you haven't got snow experience, as I said above, it's best to go get yourself some "risk free" experience now while you can.
It really can save your bacon.

If you don't however, sure drive with the traction control on, but don't EXPECT it to save you.
Infact, EXPECT it to not save you - and infact make it worse.
Like I said, most of the time, it won't make it worse... but when it does, you need to have the ability and confidence in yourself to fix it.
And you cannot get either of them with it stuck in the "on" position all the time.

Do whatever makes YOU feel safer.

(but if you're stuck in a bit of snow, whether on a hill, on a drive way, or on a completely flat bit of ground, and you're not going anywhere - just remember that you're likely becoming more fucked due to traction control. Turn it off, and you've got a much better chance of avoiding the embarrassment of having to get towed)
 
mmm-five said:
Not sure even my skillz would have got a Z4 through this today...DSC/DTC/winter tyres or not...

252F89AC00000578-2932746-image-a-78_1422616694540.jpg
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yeah.. there's pretty much zero chance of you getting a Zed through a pickup.. :thumbsup:
 
Traction control or not, my only advice is get the proper rubber on the car and you shouldn't really have any problems apart from getting around those stranded :) or trying to put their socks on :lol:

Tim.
 
Lol at what has happened to this thread :lol:

The DTC mode on most Zs is explicitly designed to be used in low traction situations it's not all off, just less intrusive. Worked great on my last Z too.

I am however very nervous about what might happen in my current one - I am not sure if I need to touch anything as the DSC seems to be less intrusive anyway, with the LSD picking up the slack. All off could be lethal in snow... Of course we need some decent snow down south before I can practice :roll:
 
TitanTim said:
Traction control or not, my only advice is get the proper rubber on the car and you shouldn't really have any problems apart from getting around those stranded :) or trying to put their socks on :lol:

Tim.
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My socks are in the boot for emergencies only Timothy! But now I know that if I turn my traction control off I wont need em! :lol: ......anyway I'm off to do a bit of drifting up the Malvern Hills now :driving:
 
lux said:
TitanTim said:
Traction control or not, my only advice is get the proper rubber on the car and you shouldn't really have any problems apart from getting around those stranded :) or trying to put their socks on :lol:

Tim.
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My socks are in the boot for emergencies only Timothy! But now I know that if I turn my traction control off I wont need em! :lol: ......anyway I'm off to do a bit of drifting up the Malvern Hills now :driving:
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You probably would be best using the socks in the house anyway Lux, you never know when policeman plod might be looking through your car window! Solid advice.
 
I'm not allowed to wear shoes in the house, so socks are essential else my toes get really cold :(
 
make sure you get them with traction control tho.
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you can rely on these to save you when you're trying to travel in conditions above your walking ability! :wink: :thumbsup:
 
Try doing a few winters on 2 wheels and then you learn exactly what sort of grip there is underneath you when the weather gets nasty.
You definately have to be on your toes and not get out of control at all.
 
Bing said:
I am however very nervous about what might happen in my current one - I am not sure if I need to touch anything as the DSC seems to be less intrusive anyway, with the LSD picking up the slack. All off could be lethal in snow... Of course we need some decent snow down south before I can practice :roll:
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I had my Z4M and a 520d at the same time and trying to get them both off the drive was a very different experience, traction off on both cars and the Zed made it look easy whereas the 520d struggled and a LSD is a real benefit.

I am as far away from a driving god as you can imagine but I like to be in control and for me traction aids just add to the problem because when all said and done YOU are not in control and that has always worried me!
 
Sk93 you are rubbish at driving in the Snow. You couldn't keep your car in a straight line. It kept going round in circles..!!! http://www.z4-forum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=72679 :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
 
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