service reveals some issues - FIXED :-) no further issue.

Thats a lot of cash you are wanting to spend.
Personally for a car thats only done a small amount of miles over the 8 year ownership I would stick a smaller shim in it to get it within tolerance. This would then give you a measurement of how much the valve seat has worn if at all (it could have been like that from the factory, mistakes do get made and it may just be touching and no more) From there you could then decide whether its worth stripping the head to fix the valve seat or run it for a few thousand miles and have the clearances checked to see if it is closing up again.
 
Nictrix said:
Thats a lot of cash you are wanting to spend.
Personally for a car thats only done a small amount of miles over the 8 year ownership I would stick a smaller shim in it to get it within tolerance. This would then give you a measurement of how much the valve seat has worn if at all (it could have been like that from the factory, mistakes do get made and it may just be touching and no more) From there you could then decide whether its worth stripping the head to fix the valve seat or run it for a few thousand miles and have the clearances checked to see if it is closing up again.
Click to expand...


it could be as simple as that tbh.... i would happily go that route if i could somehow see the valve and how its seating, wonder if i can get some sort of high tech surgery camera in the spark plug for cylinder 5 to look how the valves seated i think that would allow me to move onto my next decision very easily.

BUT.. if i need to spend alittle to get it sorted i have no issue doing so, this thing has been owned and loved by me for a long time, i was always in it for the long haul, if i can spend money going on 3 holidays in a year for more than what I'm looking at here, then i can get this done overkill spec no problem in my reasoning.

but if i can get to see the valve in question, seated correctly yes... id go with what your saying as the video clearly shows the cam lobe fine, look back and pause when the light flashes over it, still in shock how clean it looks in their tbh.
 
something like this??

http://www.conrad-electronic.co.uk/ce/en/product/123326/Voltcraft-BS-250XWSD-Endoscope/?ref=detview1&rt=detview1&rb=1

but id need something that can move electrically at the end to curve up
 
TBH I doubt they will show anything. You are talking microns of movement here. Unless there is visible damage or anything obvious (very doubtful) you won't see anything.
 
srhutch said:
TBH I doubt they will show anything. You are talking microns of movement here. Unless there is visible damage or anything obvious (very doubtful) you won't see anything.
Click to expand...

true.

maybe its best to move towards getting at the shim on that one and measuring, what i don't want to do is waste lots of money on investigation. i mean if i spend 1500 quid investigating/ measuring the shim I'm only 1k off just buying my stage 3 head and just not evening being concerned about whatever this is, mistake, valve regression ( just look at the engine, not likely at all) . then the straight swap of the head is light work as their has been no failure or damage to anything. i can't see simpson missing that tbh, but i guess its possible, it would have been even less miles and they may not have paid attention to the job fully, but thats all speculation at this point.
 
Darn Byron, mate at least you got there early. +1 to doing the vanos while your there mate, its gotta come off anyways.

looks like you've got a good set of blokes looking after it, thats half the worry gone. :D

V.
 
Thing is, how many valve checks have you had done? If it's just been the one prior to this then it's entirely feasible that one was overlooked-everyone makes mistakes and when you've got 24 valves to check it could just be the case. Granted, it doesn't explain why one seems to be tightening though.

If it were me, I'd just get that shim changed and monitor it. You seem handy enough with the spanners so it's well within your capabilities to do frequent checks. If it really only can be done by taking out the cams then it's a great excuse to do the vanos but I don't think I'd be willing to commit to an head off investigation yet.

I appreciate this isn't 'the beedub way' so if you go balls out then good for you!
 
Beedub said:
something like this??

http://www.conrad-electronic.co.uk/ce/en/product/123326/Voltcraft-BS-250XWSD-Endoscope/?ref=detview1&rt=detview1&rb=1

but id need something that can move electrically at the end to curve up
Click to expand...

I doubt you'll be able to see anything with these devices.
We're talking about a few 1/100 of a millimeter here that the valveclearance is out.
This is something you have to measure.

But getting the cam out is no big deal I think. Should be no more than 1-2 hrs work or so incl vanos.
 
beanie said:
Thing is, how many valve checks have you had done? If it's just been the one prior to this then it's entirely feasible that one was overlooked-everyone makes mistakes and when you've got 24 valves to check it could just be the case. Granted, it doesn't explain why one seems to be tightening though.

If it were me, I'd just get that shim changed and monitor it. You seem handy enough with the spanners so it's well within your capabilities to do frequent checks. If it really only can be done by taking out the cams then it's a great excuse to do the vanos but I don't think I'd be willing to commit to an head off investigation yet.


I appreciate this isn't 'the beedub way' so if you go balls out then good for you!
Click to expand...


good reasoning. After seeing this opened up i reckon i could DIY the shims if i wanted too with alittle help for the first time. just not to comfortable with the vanos side of things.
 
Tbh, it's a daunting thing to take on first time but honestly, it's really not that bad. You spend as much time dismantling the fan and rocker cover as you spend doing the shims. The measuring process is very simple and swapping the shims over is easy too, especially with the bmw tool. Perhaps the only risk is dropping a shim (I've found the exhaust side harder in this respect) but seeing as our later engines have covers over the holes that were exposed in the earlier engines, I really can't see how you could lose one. Stuff rags around any shim needing adjustment and have a magnetic pickup tool ready just in case.

The vanos side of things looks way more complicated and tbh I'm unlikely to get involved with that as the potential for royally fucking things up looks way higher. That said, I'll bet anyone who's taken it on would probably tell us it looks worse than it is. Like most things I guess!

Oh, and given the price of a full shim kit from bmw is somewhat off putting, have a look at the wiseco kit-vsk4 if my memory serves me. A guy on m3forum, I think, hardness tested these and swapped all of his over to see what they were like. The result was they were just as hard, just as consistent in sizing and worked just as they should. A kit costs about £50 I think as opposed to way more from bmw.
 
The main problem with the VANOS is ideally you want the correct BMW tools to do it properly as James did with mine. Plus you have to do the timing which isn't something you want to get wrong.
 
That's the problem, and unless you're going to do it regularly then it's hard to justify the cost of the tools as I seem to remember them being a reasonable part of the cost of the work. I'd love to do it, (and I keep looking at the procedure!) if only for the satisfaction and the knowledge but I have to admit, the risks are too great for me.
 
Redish Motorsport said:
Hi Guys,

Interesting discussion, and a first for us to find this total 'lack of clearance' on an S54 out of the probable 100's we've carried out valve clearances on.

Up until this week, there has only been one issue which can stop valve clearances (shim replacement) which has been too much oil contamination and varnishes built up on the valve train - especially the rocker shafts.
This contamination (dirt) can be thick enough to stop the rocker finger from being able to be slid along the rocker shaft (because of the expanded size of the rocker shaft due to contamination build up).
Without being able to slide the rocker finger out of the way, you simply cannot get to the valve shim to be able to remove it.


Viren said:
A little confused why can they not replace the shim with a smaller one?
Click to expand...

In beedub's Z4M case this week, a new (first time we've seen it on an S54) problem has been found where the clearance between the rocker finger and the back of the camshaft is non existent (read touching) that the valve spring is compressing the shim and rocker finger up into the back of camshaft.
So there is no way that human forces can move/slide that rocker finger out of the way (to access the shim), because of these compressive forces.
These forces equate to zero clearance on this Inlet 5 left side, and could either be due to the shim being too large (but it would have never been able to be installed in that state), or valve seat wear allowing the valve to travel further up into the head and reduce the clearance between the rocker finger and back of the camshaft.

Yes, any body could use 2 flat blade screw drivers to attempt to depress the valve spring to assist in accessing the shim, but that's not what we're about.

Anyway, here'a brand new video we just recorded to explain it better:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wMWwSANcR4


Hope this helps, :thumbsup:
James
Click to expand...

Wish you were closer to London, not seen any other garage with the same level of detail and care that you provide.

Why has this not led to accelerated follower and cam wear as yet if it touching? btw not trying to question anything here just learning how these parts interact, cheers
 
had a further think on this, looking at the state of the engine internals, given the zero current damage/wear I'm going to get the current shim out swap it to a smaller shim and see what happens after another year of running, valve seat regression on a 12k miles engine ?? nahhhh.... too unlikely , the things barely run in, even on 100k motors we aren't seeing this, not saying impossbile but being logical , hat doesn't seem right... I'm not giving this car a chance and its been nothing but relaible, hell for all we know theirs a piece of s**t lodged under the shim somehow. so i have to dedicate some cash to investigative purposes., BUT only to a certain limit. i like the idea of the stage 3 supercharger specific head but only if i NEED to. I've learned may times over the years that sometimes if it aint broke don't fix it.... but lets see if its broke first! lol

now i love simpsons, they given me nothing but good service BUT.. maybe they've just missed this , they may have looked at the cleanest, the miles and just not checked properly s**t happens, again could be wrong. I'm looking forward to having a conversation with them on monday. They key for me was always having the stamps in the book, one of the reasons I've always taken the car to the best in the industry.

also i mean i expected it to be clean in their due to miles, but wasn't expecting it to be shining like a silver jewel, its clearly running well and very healthy, so given the conditions I'm seeing, lets just explore the current shim in their and see what happens. i mean for a company like redish to say they NEVER seen an engine so clean internally? yet we are throwing around potential valve seat regression ?? just doesn't seem likely at all. its all very interesting.

This time round, ill be going in their with my overalls on and ill be getting involved myself too... i want to be their during this whole next stage. I'm currently looking for a trailer and ill hitch it up with the macan and get back to redish before xmas and get this sorted, and at least know my next direction from that visit. Right now.... i feel nothing but positivity and more to the point I'm pleased and feel rather lucky that routine servicing has found this. This is the second inspection 2 this car has had in 12.3k miles, so despite the miles I've followed things to the letter actually above, and its paid off now imo.

until we get the shim off its all speculation imo, the car will probably be moved around the driveway etc but won't be driven properly until its back at redish. hat i will say i don't think their is a common failure here i think theirs some weird anomaly thats happened in one respect or another.

wether good or bad ill always post up the progress of things as the community benefits imo. So you low milers keep to service schedule, don't skip things as you feel you don't need to do certain things for the low miles, however lets to forget my car has seen it fair share of hard use, maybe thats why it looks so clean inside?? constantly running high oil temps. Either way she will be back in rude health some added bits in the very short future. Ive always remember you have to pay to play unfortunately ... nows my turn for some butt puckering, lol! but I'm in a great position anyhow as mine has been discovered before damage has occurred. These highly strung engines are getting older and we are all going to have our moments !! The next stage, is a mixture of excitement, fear and genuine intrigue, buts what a lovely problem to have in the grand scheme of things, its my baby and i love it, but its just a car and it will be sorted, WHATEVER needs to be done. :driving: :driving: :evil: :evil:

Next up..... hire a trailer. :-)

another question can a macan pull a car and trailer ? where do i find out its towing capabilities?
 
sorry for the sporadic replies on this one guys , I'm about to get ready for another holiday.... so trying to sort things while we talk details!
 
If your engine didnt look like that at 12000 miles after 6 (guess) oil changes then i would be worried...lol..

So do you think Simpsons simply didnt check the valve clearances due to the low miles,or just happened to miss out this one that has a problem ?

Has the valve clearances only been checked once before in its lifetime ??

Remember if the cam lobe or shim wears the clearance will get bigger,valve seat wear will make the clearance get smaller..
 
Beedub said:
valve seat regression on a 12k miles engine ?? nahhhh.... too unlikely ,
Click to expand...

Like I wrote before: if there is now too little room for the follower to slide away (to get the shim out), how did they get the follower sliding in last time?
Think about that :wink: :roll:

If the follower is stuck, that means that it's over 0,2mm out of spec compared to the other ones, which is a lot, also compared with the other ones.
Also, it's the back of the engine that needed adjustment (cyl 4-6), and that is the part of the engine that usually gets hottest. I don't know if that's common on a s54 but it is something I noticed.
I looked at the drawings and the s54 doesnt have seperate lower bearing caps or a lower bearing ledge so you probably cant measure relative valve stem hight with a straight edge like I suggested before (that would easily diagnose the real problem).
I guess the cam lobe sits lower than the bearing faces from the cam.

If the shim in there is of a normal size (according to the video somewhere around/between 2.34 and 2.24) I would get to the bottom of this.

What do redish advise?
From what I understood in their post they'll get the cam out anyway.
 
Beedub, interesting thread. Sorry this has happened. The only point I was going to add is one you've raised yourself - check the towing weights of the Macan as it's a small car and the combined weight of a Zed + trailer will be approaching 2 tonnes. Also, ensure you get a braked twin axle trailer (not single axle) as they are far more stable.
I have a Brian James trailer for my Westy and tow it easily behind a midsize estate car, but the combined weight is well under one tonne. The Zed won't fit on the bed or I'd happily lend it to you.
 
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