service reveals some issues - FIXED :-) no further issue.
- Thread starter Beedub
- Start date
Sucks! Glad they discovered it (even if missed previously).
All i can say is i put the same post on every single inspection thread saying 'GET THE MEASUREMENTS' after going through this.
The way to measure the shims is by poking the tool in, if it doesn't fit, they're "in tolerance", obviously this wouldn't discover a problem where they're too tight if they're not thorough and don't actually look to measure the distances by putting smaller tools in until it goes in, hence you're meant to get the measurements because it forces them to find the biggest tool that fits in. It's therefore possible to 'check' the shims without taking measurements, thus not doing a proper job imo.
If you don't get measurements (assuming they're not just bullshitting you), you're leaving yourself open to a problem that whilst might not be initially that serious (and wont be until a follower wears + snaps), the cost for fixing it is significant because .. as you say.. requires taking half the engine off to get to the fix, at which time you may as well swap all shims/followers because it costs so much to get to that point.
Needless to say, i don't think anyone actually gets the measurements, bar flimper. Everyone gets fobbed off with the same 'we forgot' excuse.
Maybe that makes no sense, but the amount of times shim clearance / followers are cropping up at the moment i think people need to be less trusting of garages and more specific about demanding information you need to be satisfied
All i can say is i put the same post on every single inspection thread saying 'GET THE MEASUREMENTS' after going through this.
The way to measure the shims is by poking the tool in, if it doesn't fit, they're "in tolerance", obviously this wouldn't discover a problem where they're too tight if they're not thorough and don't actually look to measure the distances by putting smaller tools in until it goes in, hence you're meant to get the measurements because it forces them to find the biggest tool that fits in. It's therefore possible to 'check' the shims without taking measurements, thus not doing a proper job imo.
If you don't get measurements (assuming they're not just bullshitting you), you're leaving yourself open to a problem that whilst might not be initially that serious (and wont be until a follower wears + snaps), the cost for fixing it is significant because .. as you say.. requires taking half the engine off to get to the fix, at which time you may as well swap all shims/followers because it costs so much to get to that point.
Needless to say, i don't think anyone actually gets the measurements, bar flimper. Everyone gets fobbed off with the same 'we forgot' excuse.
Maybe that makes no sense, but the amount of times shim clearance / followers are cropping up at the moment i think people need to be less trusting of garages and more specific about demanding information you need to be satisfied
jimmybell said:Sucks! Glad they discovered it (even if missed previously).
All i can say is i put the same post on every single inspection thread saying 'GET THE MEASUREMENTS' after going through this.
The way to measure the shims is by poking the tool in, if it doesn't fit, they're "in tolerance", obviously this wouldn't discover a problem where they're too tight if they're not thorough and don't actually look to measure the distances by putting smaller tools in until it goes in, hence you're meant to get the measurements because it forces them to find the biggest tool that fits in. It's therefore possible to 'check' the shims without taking measurements, thus not doing a proper job imo.
If you don't get measurements (assuming they're not just bullshitting you), you're leaving yourself open to a problem that whilst might not be initially that serious (and wont be until a follower wears + snaps), the cost for fixing it is significant because .. as you say.. requires taking half the engine off to get to the fix, at which time you may as well swap all shims/followers because it costs so much to get to that point.
Needless to say, i don't think anyone actually gets the measurements, bar flimper. Everyone gets fobbed off with the same 'we forgot' excuse.
Maybe that makes no sense, but the amount of times shim clearance / followers are cropping up at the moment i think people need to be less trusting of garages and more specific about demanding information you need to be satisfied
What tool do they use?
You would need to use feeler gauges to determine the gap and then varying sizes to make sure the gap is neither too small or too big.
I got the measurements for mine. Yes they were on a plain piece of paper and had forgotten I wanted them, but luckily still sitting on top of the techs toolbox.
I don't know what the term is to describe the tool, but it's just like a allen key keyring full of 'cake slices' of different thicknesses. The default action is to get out the one that is the right size and if it fits then the shim likely needs replacing, if it does't then they're tight enough (i'm not sure how itd be too tight but clearly this is posible from beedub)
if a thinner shim to temporarily correct the valve clearance was available, I would have fitted it to prevent further damage.
But by doing so you are only doing a temporary fix, the cure is to find why the valve clearance closed up, especially in such low miles...
But by doing so you are only doing a temporary fix, the cure is to find why the valve clearance closed up, especially in such low miles...
I honestly don't know what problem is with garages not getting this right or getting shifty over the actual measurements I did my first bucket and shim adjustment on a 1960's Coventry Climax Imp engine and the process hasn't changed, in fact on the M you don't need to remove the camshaft to change shims as with some engines. If your technician is shifty about any of this ditch them! TBH measurement is a DIY job, changing shims less so because you need access to a full selection of shims.
For anybody who's not really clear on head internals and the method of adjusting a bucket and shim set-up this is a really informative video of an ///M adjustment being explained and measured.
https://youtu.be/SoYVubj9y5U
5:56 he uses a two blade feeler gauge process for ensuring the gap is within tolerance (although I must admit I do like to confirm with the exact size for reassurance).
7:55 His comments about the dangers of over-tight clearances and looking for wear on the back of the cam are spot-on
Shim replacement isn't shown here but it's simply a matter of depressing the follower with a lever tool and hooking the shim out with a magnetic tip and inserting the correct shim. It's far easier to achieve the correct gap with shims than on a screw adjustable set-up that always shift tight when you lock them
For anybody who's not really clear on head internals and the method of adjusting a bucket and shim set-up this is a really informative video of an ///M adjustment being explained and measured.
https://youtu.be/SoYVubj9y5U
5:56 he uses a two blade feeler gauge process for ensuring the gap is within tolerance (although I must admit I do like to confirm with the exact size for reassurance).
7:55 His comments about the dangers of over-tight clearances and looking for wear on the back of the cam are spot-on
Shim replacement isn't shown here but it's simply a matter of depressing the follower with a lever tool and hooking the shim out with a magnetic tip and inserting the correct shim. It's far easier to achieve the correct gap with shims than on a screw adjustable set-up that always shift tight when you lock them
right ok, I'm back in the mix from my night of the jollies...
ok so heres where we stand currently..... Car runs perfectly fine with no current wear or damage to the cams ( i couldnt believe how clean the internals were tbh, sewing machine smooth great news...
now clearly the clearance has either tightened or it was always had too large of a shim, at this point no point speculating, i trust simpson however i should have pushed for a check sheet back when they did it but it trust them. However I'm going to give them a quick call to just throw some ideas round from someone who's probably built more of these engines than most / the people that have serviced the car since day 1 . Any work will go to redish as i feel they deserve the money for it imo.
But... i don't do quick fixes, it would also be nice to educate others as to whats the route cause here, supercharger wear?? on the inlet side ill call that very unlikely but not impossible as we don't know the stresses being placed and lets not forget this thing gets used properly. manufacturing issue?? maybe ... , anomaly head issue/ shim issue? maybe ...
so heres my current stance point according to redish.
a) Too thicker shim from factory ( unlikely due to previous checks by simpsons ) nice and simple remove cam and stick in new thinner shim this one costs alot for the investigation work
b) the head comes off and the valve seating isn't , valve stretched, - i have the investigation cost Then the cost of the rectification.
c) i go balls deep on a Vac stage 3 head CNC head with Titanium valve gear, update everything i come in contact with and do the vanos while I'm in their. This then becomes a head swap, negates investigation costs, swap core head for 1800 bucks back to VAC. This one will cost me around 4-5k total... the car and engine condition are worth it.
https://store.vacmotorsports.com/vac---s54-stage-3-performance-cylinder-head-p1340.aspx?Thread=True
so far i like number 3, I've had 8 years with this car and its been faultless, time for alittle bit of love i think while nothing is damaged this is a great time to do some upgrades too I'm going to talk to redish and if the investigation costs are close to what I'm thinking I'm going to do the stage 3 head and go crazy while I'm in their.
no-ones died, the car and engine are fine and all has been discovered within the proper service schedule not from the engine grenading. this is one of those life problems i need to appreciate, me, my son are healthy, theirs kids of their washing up on shores, this is a minor, i and will be on it early next season and I'm looking forward to the subsequent upgrades to my car :evil: :evil:
watch ... this... space...
Either way their is zero vanos issues but ill be totally overhauling it as its removed during this process in either instances.
ok so heres where we stand currently..... Car runs perfectly fine with no current wear or damage to the cams ( i couldnt believe how clean the internals were tbh, sewing machine smooth
great news...now clearly the clearance has either tightened or it was always had too large of a shim, at this point no point speculating, i trust simpson however i should have pushed for a check sheet back when they did it but it trust them. However I'm going to give them a quick call to just throw some ideas round from someone who's probably built more of these engines than most / the people that have serviced the car since day 1 . Any work will go to redish as i feel they deserve the money for it imo.
But... i don't do quick fixes, it would also be nice to educate others as to whats the route cause here, supercharger wear?? on the inlet side ill call that very unlikely but not impossible as we don't know the stresses being placed and lets not forget this thing gets used properly. manufacturing issue?? maybe ... , anomaly head issue/ shim issue? maybe ...
so heres my current stance point according to redish.
a) Too thicker shim from factory ( unlikely due to previous checks by simpsons ) nice and simple remove cam and stick in new thinner shim this one costs alot for the investigation work
b) the head comes off and the valve seating isn't , valve stretched, - i have the investigation cost Then the cost of the rectification.
c) i go balls deep on a Vac stage 3 head CNC head with Titanium valve gear, update everything i come in contact with and do the vanos while I'm in their. This then becomes a head swap, negates investigation costs, swap core head for 1800 bucks back to VAC. This one will cost me around 4-5k total... the car and engine condition are worth it.
https://store.vacmotorsports.com/vac---s54-stage-3-performance-cylinder-head-p1340.aspx?Thread=True
so far i like number 3, I've had 8 years with this car and its been faultless, time for alittle bit of love i think
while nothing is damaged this is a great time to do some upgrades too I'm going to talk to redish and if the investigation costs are close to what I'm thinking I'm going to do the stage 3 head and go crazy while I'm in their. no-ones died, the car and engine are fine and all has been discovered within the proper service schedule not from the engine grenading. this is one of those life problems i need to appreciate, me, my son are healthy, theirs kids of their washing up on shores, this is a minor, i and will be on it early next season and I'm looking forward to the subsequent upgrades to my car :evil: :evil:
watch ... this... space...
Either way their is zero vanos issues but ill be totally overhauling it as its removed during this process in either instances.
3 has my vote!
I luckily caught my shim issues quite early, i only had one follower that was showing signs of wear that would eventually need to be replaced. Being me, i had the shims all done, measuerd and replaced the entire follower set so it'd never be a problem again, and to get to that point, plus follower costs, you're talking £3k. The labour cost for swapping one follower isnt really any different than doing all of them. On the plus side, i now have a £900 keyring.
If i were you, with the low miler, already charged and clearly keen to keep owning and running it ... i'd definitely be considering the stage 3 stuff.
Personally i don't have the balls to charge mine, mainly because my Z4 does have a shelf life unless i can win the lottery and keep it forever alongside future desirable, and for me i dont think id get any of my investment back (charger also would mean suspension, etc etc) thus delaying my V12 aston dreams
Go for it!
I luckily caught my shim issues quite early, i only had one follower that was showing signs of wear that would eventually need to be replaced. Being me, i had the shims all done, measuerd and replaced the entire follower set so it'd never be a problem again, and to get to that point, plus follower costs, you're talking £3k. The labour cost for swapping one follower isnt really any different than doing all of them. On the plus side, i now have a £900 keyring.
If i were you, with the low miler, already charged and clearly keen to keep owning and running it ... i'd definitely be considering the stage 3 stuff.
Personally i don't have the balls to charge mine, mainly because my Z4 does have a shelf life unless i can win the lottery and keep it forever alongside future desirable, and for me i dont think id get any of my investment back (charger also would mean suspension, etc etc) thus delaying my V12 aston dreams
Go for it!
fack it!!! lets do it!
while I'm in their I'm going to do complete vanos overhaul beefed up tabs even tho mine look new but i may as well address the common issues!
Stage 3 head with inconel valve gear ( upgraded from Ti) specific supercharged applications from the Vac options list.
new cometic 3 layer metal head gasket.
on a side their was an m5 in their for rod bearings!! WOOaaa.... they showed me the shells and i have never seen pit marks like what i saw.... literally on the edge of failing, luckiest guy EVER!
back onto mine, she currently sleeps, so i don't need to use my savings, ill just save up till feb, then in march use whatever i need to to get upto the figures.
The car gets used hard, its been nothing but reliable despite being pushed to the limit and she's my bambino. Routine servicing despite mileage has highlighted the issue. Its given me 8 years of bliss and fun, time to open up the wallet again
from now till then i have LOTS of information to swat up on.
the investigation work is going to cost enough that i may as well go balls deep on this one i guess. I've never skimped on this car and i won't start know. I've always been in it for the long haul, and I'm not dis-heartened in the slightest, infact i feel lucky.
id guess max 4.5k ill trailer it down next year with my macan.
while I'm in their I'm going to do complete vanos overhaul beefed up tabs even tho mine look new but i may as well address the common issues!
Stage 3 head with inconel valve gear ( upgraded from Ti) specific supercharged applications from the Vac options list.
new cometic 3 layer metal head gasket.
on a side their was an m5 in their for rod bearings!! WOOaaa.... they showed me the shells and i have never seen pit marks like what i saw.... literally on the edge of failing, luckiest guy EVER!
back onto mine, she currently sleeps, so i don't need to use my savings, ill just save up till feb, then in march use whatever i need to to get upto the figures.
The car gets used hard, its been nothing but reliable despite being pushed to the limit and she's my bambino. Routine servicing despite mileage has highlighted the issue. Its given me 8 years of bliss and fun, time to open up the wallet again
from now till then i have LOTS of information to swat up on. the investigation work is going to cost enough that i may as well go balls deep on this one i guess. I've never skimped on this car and i won't start know. I've always been in it for the long haul, and I'm not dis-heartened in the slightest, infact i feel lucky.
id guess max 4.5k ill trailer it down next year with my macan.
With that in mind what do you think has caused this then ? I personally think a "thick shim" from factory is not realistic,baring in mind the checks that the car has gone through in its miles...
The engines i have seen with inlet valve recession have been caused by high RPM and high cylinder temps... Heat is the problem,or lack of cooling in the flash chamber of the head...
Running weak mixture on that particular cylinder could also cause heat control problems.
Is the car used solely as a track car ?
What fuel are you using ?
Do you use anything to moniter temps or fuel ratio at high RPM ?
The engines i have seen with inlet valve recession have been caused by high RPM and high cylinder temps... Heat is the problem,or lack of cooling in the flash chamber of the head...
Running weak mixture on that particular cylinder could also cause heat control problems.
Is the car used solely as a track car ?
What fuel are you using ?
Do you use anything to moniter temps or fuel ratio at high RPM ?
Z4M-2006 said:
yeah i agree with the thick shim from factory comment, doesn't seem logical unless simpson completely missed that which i fail to believe. i trust those guys. But..... again nothing is impossible.
Re the temps still not convinced its a supercharger related item, thousands, of these across the world on the s54 platform via numerous companies you'd see more of it imo, just could be an anomoly here, valve stretched maybe? something out of tolerance somewhere and the added stress of the s/c pushed it too far?
the car is my weekend toy, whether that be pooling to a car show or blatting round my local sprint track, but its starting to get more use now my sons getting older.
Car only uses only shell nitro plus a mix of shell high octane unleaded to get to around 105-107 octane, but is more than fine on shell nitro plus, which it see;s as a minimum.
the car has EGT via stack and also wibe-band AFR, logs for both show well in spec , AFR targets and reaches a nice 11.5 @ redline, which is well within the cautionary region and definitely on the rich side, i.e Safe.
Ess software uses all stock controls for knock and safety paremetres too. Im pretty much certain this isn't S/C related, redish felt the same. But again its all speculation.
Why havent they got the original shim out and measured it?
It's not that hard I think?
Or is the thinnest shim already in?
There is no info on that paper?
If your valve seat has worn.... that would not be good....
The only other thing I can think of is something is wrong with the drag lever (follower) or the collet not seating properly, but that's unlikely I think.
To see if somethings wrong with the valve, the camshaft has to come off indeed, and maybe with a straight edge see if the one valve sticks up higher than the other ones.
It's not that hard I think?
Or is the thinnest shim already in?
There is no info on that paper?
If your valve seat has worn.... that would not be good....
The only other thing I can think of is something is wrong with the drag lever (follower) or the collet not seating properly, but that's unlikely I think.
To see if somethings wrong with the valve, the camshaft has to come off indeed, and maybe with a straight edge see if the one valve sticks up higher than the other ones.
Viren said:
well this could be a very different post.... it could be my engines blown or whatever, its not, meticulous maintenance has picked up an issue that needs to be addressed. Right now I've got nothing to be down about, she's given me a great 8 years and will continue to do so.