Salmon!?

[Naylz]

What are “Salmon Relays”?, seen them mentioned a couple of times on here but no idea what they are. Are they a common issue with E89’s, should I be proactively doing something

 

[Argyll Andy]

Hopefully answer your questions in here

https://z4-forum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=133104&hilit=Salmon

This one too

https://z4-forum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=123670&hilit=Salmon

 

[flybobbie]

 

[RobbiZ4]

There is an E89 maintenance summary available :

https://z4-forum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=130932

 

[Naylz]

Thanks everyone, couple of Salmon on their way from BMW . Seems a very easy job to do, why wouldn’t you change em

 

[peeblezZ4]

Thanks everyone, couple of Salmon on their way from BMW . Seems a very easy job to do, why wouldn’t you change em

Did mine a few weeks ago. Really straightforward. Peace of mind for £50.

 

[Naylz]

£50!!!! Blimey just paid £33 from BMW main dealer

 

[Pondy]

Seems a very easy job to do, why wouldn’t you change em

I know Robbi won't agree but there is an argument to say 'if it ain't broke why fix it?'.
I have pair of relays sitting waiting for if (not when) the ones in the car fail.
Relays are very simple electro-mechanical items which shouldn't fail just by 'being old'.

 

[Smartbear]

Seems a very easy job to do, why wouldn’t you change em

I know Robbi won't agree but there is an argument to say 'if it ain't broke why fix it?'.
I have pair of relays sitting waiting for if (not when) the ones in the car fail.
Relays are very simple electro-mechanical items which shouldn't fail just by 'being old'.

The problem is that when the salmon relays fail it can lead to a very expensive roof motor getting destroyed without warning.
It’s not age that causes the failure condition but contacts becoming welded together due to the high switching current.
I’d be pretty fed up if that happened to my car & i had replacement relays sitting on a shelf
Rob

 

[flybobbie]

Seems a very easy job to do, why wouldn’t you change em

I know Robbi won't agree but there is an argument to say 'if it ain't broke why fix it?'.
I have pair of relays sitting waiting for if (not when) the ones in the car fail.
Relays are very simple electro-mechanical items which shouldn't fail just by 'being old'.

Problem could fail at a point where you can't get into the boot.
If you have new, fit them keep the old for emergencies.
I'm not convinced it's a contact issue, other than constant running pump, but the resistor or diode that is across the coil. How did my obd reader tell me the relay was faulty.

 

[B21]

Seems a very easy job to do, why wouldn’t you change em

I know Robbi won't agree but there is an argument to say 'if it ain't broke why fix it?'.
I have pair of relays sitting waiting for if (not when) the ones in the car fail.
Relays are very simple electro-mechanical items which shouldn't fail just by 'being old'.

Your making a big and sadly incorrect assumption…

Your assuming that the relay will fail ‘open’…

In this case the risk is that the retaining spring that pulls the relay contacts apart when the coil current is removed fails..

On ‘make’ and on ‘break’ inductive arcing takes place across the main contacts as you are switching an electric motor aka inductive load.

That inductive load induces a large spark which can weld the contacts together.

The spring pulls the contacts apart but if the spring fails there is no ability for the contacts to separate.

The net result is that power continues to feed the motor despite the fact that the roof management ECU has command it off.

So motor runs till it burns out.

 

[Pondy]

It’s not age that causes the failure condition but contacts becoming welded together due to the high switching current.

I am not trying to be controversial here but this type of thing makes no sense to me.
A relay will have contact materials to cope easily with the load current. so it shouldn't matter how many times they switch (via the coil). Contacts welding is only ever caused by current in excess of the contact materials capacity, so they melt, or potentially arcing through multiple switching in a very short period.

If water ingress is the cause of common failure, then, yes I get that. But if that is the case, then there are other issues causing it.

Just for context; I have dealt with relays all my working life. I look after one electrical panel in a building which is 36 years old. It has approximately 40 relays in it. The relays are switched more often than any car roof and none have ever needed changing.

This is why I don't get this.

 

[Pondy]

Your making a big and sadly incorrect assumption…

Your assuming that the relay will fail ‘open’…

In this case the risk is that the retaining spring that pulls the relay contacts apart when the coil current is removed fails..

On ‘make’ and on ‘break’ inductive arcing takes place across the main contacts as you are switching an electric motor aka inductive load.

That inductive load induces a large spark which can weld the contacts together.

The spring pulls the contacts apart but if the spring fails there is no ability for the contacts to separate.

The net result is that power continues to feed the motor despite the fact that the roof management ECU has command it off.

So motor runs till it burns out.

See above Peter. Your 'theoretical' wisdom is wasted on me. I have been there and done it, have you?

 

[tiglon]

What are “Salmon Relays”?

One of the more entertaining events in the Animal Olympics.

 

[Smartbear]

It’s not age that causes the failure condition but contacts becoming welded together due to the high switching current.

I am not trying to be controversial here but this type of thing makes no sense to me.
A relay will have contact materials to cope easily with the load current. so it shouldn't matter how many times they switch (via the coil). Contacts welding is only ever caused by current in excess of the contact materials capacity, so they melt, or potentially arcing through multiple switching in a very short period.

If water ingress is the cause of common failure, then, yes I get that. But if that is the case, then there are other issues causing it.

Just for context; I have dealt with relays all my working life. I look after one electrical panel in a building which is 36 years old. It has approximately 40 relays in it. The relays are switched more often than any car roof and none have ever needed changing.

This is why I don't get this.

In an ideal world I’d agree with you but I’ve seen enough evidence of these relays failing in a “make” position to make me change mine, i think replacement hydraulic motors are £2k+ and i paid £30 for 2 new salmon relays….
Ps, I’ve worked with relays for around 20 years & seen plenty of failed relays, stuck up/down and burnt contacts due to high DC switching current.
Rob

 

[Pondy]

In an ideal world I’d agree with you but I’ve seen enough evidence of these relays failing in a “make” position to make me change mine, i think replacement hydraulic motors are £2k+ and i paid £30 for 2 new salmon relays….
Ps, I’ve worked with relays for around 20 years & seen plenty of failed relays, stuck up/down and burnt contacts due to high DC switching current.

As ever Roberto, you are the voice of reason without emotion and for that I salute you.

My point is that other people who know nothing about how the mechanics work just change these things because they are told they should without questioning why. I've always been one to question what I am told and work out whether it is genuine or not.

If someone put a post up to say that the driver's door handle will fall off at 70k miles, I fear that it would become 'law' that at 68k miles people would change them as a 'precaution'.

I am sorry but I don't believe electrical components should be part of 'preventative' maintenance. They can and may fail at any time; or never.

 

[RobbiZ4]

You guys are funny!

How often did I link the documentation of this very special relay issue?

https://www.spoolstreet.com/threads/urgent-recommendation-to-replace-the-pink-hardtop-hydraulic-relays.3815/

 

[B21]

Your making a big and sadly incorrect assumption…

Your assuming that the relay will fail ‘open’…

In this case the risk is that the retaining spring that pulls the relay contacts apart when the coil current is removed fails..

On ‘make’ and on ‘break’ inductive arcing takes place across the main contacts as you are switching an electric motor aka inductive load.

That inductive load induces a large spark which can weld the contacts together.

The spring pulls the contacts apart but if the spring fails there is no ability for the contacts to separate.

The net result is that power continues to feed the motor despite the fact that the roof management ECU has command it off.

So motor runs till it burns out.

See above Peter. Your 'theoretical' wisdom is wasted on me. I have been there and done it, have you?

Yes I’ve seen several relays fail open or closed..

Part of the issue is that the relay selected is close to its switching limit for inductive loads..if not exceeding it.

Duty cycle and environmental issues are factors too.

Any process of denial by an individual against best practices and evidence based on his experience in a different environment is possibly flawed.

 

[RobbiZ4]

I've always been one to question what I am told and work out whether it is genuine or not.

Perfect!
Same with me. "Robbi wants to know" is my slogan.

I am sorry but I don't believe electrical components should be part of 'preventative' maintenance. They can and may fail at any time; or never.

In this very rare case it is worthwhile to avoid a defective pump.


My published results can be accepted or denied. Who cares.

 

[sp3ctre]

Well you learn something new every day. I'd never heard of these things... and now I feel like I know 0.01% about relays

Seems like a bit of a bad design if the motor just runs 'til it burns out? Although I guess it's not BMW's problem, they just charge the punters for a new motor.