RPI Air Scoop Intake
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What made you conclude naive? It was stated that nothing can be improved on what BMW engineers have provided. There are hundreds of improvement parts available from after market suppliers, from exhausts, remapping, different air filters etc.
I just noted that a scoop is just a tiny part that might be an improvement upon the OEM part. So why do you think that is naive?
I just noted that a scoop is just a tiny part that might be an improvement upon the OEM part. So why do you think that is naive?
I just think we need to be cautious when buying things on the claims made by the seller themselves.
A proper independent test would prove the benefit, but none have been done. Until one is, it's basically an expensive piece of plastic to make you feel good, a snake oil product basically.
You may as well buy those £5 (but actually cost 10p) eBay resistors for what it is worth. At least they REALLY do alter something, albeit not the best way
Dave
A proper independent test would prove the benefit, but none have been done. Until one is, it's basically an expensive piece of plastic to make you feel good, a snake oil product basically.
You may as well buy those £5 (but actually cost 10p) eBay resistors for what it is worth. At least they REALLY do alter something, albeit not the best way
Dave
Don't forget that the M3 CSL was also an improvement of the standard M3. Reprogramming, airbox, air filter and air scoop were part of that package to squeeze out 27 extra hp.
I'm not claiming that the RPI scoop will generate you 1/4rd of that performance gain, but if you get a Gruppe M airbox, special air filter, ES software and the RPI air scoop, why would it not stand to reason that performance gains would be made?
I'm not claiming that the RPI scoop will generate you 1/4rd of that performance gain, but if you get a Gruppe M airbox, special air filter, ES software and the RPI air scoop, why would it not stand to reason that performance gains would be made?
Mr Whippy said:I just think we need to be cautious when buying things on the claims made by the seller themselves.
A proper independent test would prove the benefit, but none have been done. Until one is, it's basically an expensive piece of plastic to make you feel good, a snake oil product basically.
You may as well buy those £5 (but actually cost 10p) eBay resistors for what it is worth. At least they REALLY do alter something, albeit not the best way
Dave
+1.
Not trying to be funny PVR but at the end of the day as Mr Whipy says its a piece of plastic. If something so simple would have given BMW more MPG or power I'm sure they would have done so.
wooter said:
Because there is no scientific proof.
If we all just start believing wild claims made without evidence, then we buy a load of crap like this little 12v fan 'superchargers' that you stick on your intake to add 50bhp and the like. Very simple tests prove these are nonsense, so we dismiss them quickly, but these scoops and intakes are so subtle that very specific testing needs to be done, and ideally using different methods. Ie, a manometer testing session through the intake system, acceleration tests at speed averaged, @ wheels same day dyno testing etc.
Sounds excessive, but none of those things, like airboxes, special air filters, new ECU software, and air scoops, are cheap items, and if the manufacturer didn't do those above tests for them, then they are just as much kidding themselsves as they are their customers. So they either have the proof and realise it's poor so won't release it, or they don't have it and so have no idea how good it really is.
Either way, that means ideally the customer should prove the worth and benefit of these things if they are buying them for the power gains.
Yes, I'd buy an exhaust more on sound and build quality if I wanted a new sound, and not for power gains really. But these scoops offer nothing except their promise of a gain in power, so lets see some real proof
I'd love to see them do something positive I really would, but I'd want proof!
Dave
Mr Whippy said:wooter said:
Because there is no scientific proof.
If we all just start believing wild claims made without evidence, then we buy a load of crap like this little 12v fan 'superchargers' that you stick on your intake to add 50bhp and the like. Very simple tests prove these are nonsense, so we dismiss them quickly, but these scoops and intakes are so subtle that very specific testing needs to be done, and ideally using different methods. Ie, a manometer testing session through the intake system, acceleration tests at speed averaged, @ wheels same day dyno testing etc.
Sounds excessive, but none of those things, like airboxes, special air filters, new ECU software, and air scoops, are cheap items, and if the manufacturer didn't do those above tests for them, then they are just as much kidding themselsves as they are their customers. So they either have the proof and realise it's poor so won't release it, or they don't have it and so have no idea how good it really is.
Either way, that means ideally the customer should prove the worth and benefit of these things if they are buying them for the power gains.
Yes, I'd buy an exhaust more on sound and build quality if I wanted a new sound, and not for power gains really. But these scoops offer nothing except their promise of a gain in power, so lets see some real proof
I'd love to see them do something positive I really would, but I'd want proof!
Dave
This makes more sense. I've never been one to believe that an air filter will give more power and have bought such items for the sound they produce rather than any perceived performance gains.
The S54 is already producing over 100bhp per litre. If the addition of an air scoop relaeased more power, BMW would have done so from the outset.
daz05 said:
Yep,
Simply put, if BMW could have made part of the gains needed to get the CSL up to power, and one of them was a scoop pointing forwards, which lets be honest, is a HELL of a lot cheaper than a full new exhaust development, or a carbon fibre intake plenum, then they would have used one!
Now I can't believe for one second that BMW M didn't spot this gem of a tuning benefit.
Dave
This begs the question: is the air scoop on a CSL then just for looks?
Not that it matters... I got the scoop because I wanted the skidplates, selected the scoop too and got a free BMC air filter as a bonus with the added grunt extra. Car runs fine, and I don't see a reason to get rid of the scoop.
Not that it matters... I got the scoop because I wanted the skidplates, selected the scoop too and got a free BMC air filter as a bonus with the added grunt extra. Car runs fine, and I don't see a reason to get rid of the scoop.
Lots of good discussion, which I believe to be a good thing.
One item I noticed missing in this thread was the affect of sound ordances the manufacturers have to meet to certify their vehicles. While it is true, most manufacturers are not going to let a little $1 part keep then from making more horsepower, the fact of NOT meeting sound regulations may pursuade them to do so.
If making an additional 5 hp doesn't allow them to pass the sound test and sell thousands of vehicles, that 5 hp will be sacrificed. So I disagree with the outright discussion that if the manufactures could make the hp, if they could. I don't believe that to be true.
They will make it IF they can pass all the regulations. Period.
Aftermarket can get by with a little fudging, that's where some of the small claims are made, in BMW cases, when they can exheed some of the tight regulations. I believe everyone here who has ever modified a vehicle, whether car or motorcycle with a alternative air filter, will admit the noise level goes up. Hp may go up slightly too, maybe. Add the same to the exhaust and now a vehicle can't pass regulations. Manufaturer backs off, makes 330 hp instead of 339 hp, but can now sell tens of thousands of cars.
A no brainer to me.
Tell us what you think.
One item I noticed missing in this thread was the affect of sound ordances the manufacturers have to meet to certify their vehicles. While it is true, most manufacturers are not going to let a little $1 part keep then from making more horsepower, the fact of NOT meeting sound regulations may pursuade them to do so.
If making an additional 5 hp doesn't allow them to pass the sound test and sell thousands of vehicles, that 5 hp will be sacrificed. So I disagree with the outright discussion that if the manufactures could make the hp, if they could. I don't believe that to be true.
They will make it IF they can pass all the regulations. Period.
Aftermarket can get by with a little fudging, that's where some of the small claims are made, in BMW cases, when they can exheed some of the tight regulations. I believe everyone here who has ever modified a vehicle, whether car or motorcycle with a alternative air filter, will admit the noise level goes up. Hp may go up slightly too, maybe. Add the same to the exhaust and now a vehicle can't pass regulations. Manufaturer backs off, makes 330 hp instead of 339 hp, but can now sell tens of thousands of cars.
A no brainer to me.
Tell us what you think.
Yes.
Except: M3 CSL.
Now you could argue that the intake, air filter, exhaust and scoop on the CSL are so specially designed that it would jack up the Z4 M prices considerably, and BMW voted not to take a chance and just deliver the car with the standard engine...
I don't think it is the sound. I really do think it are the tiny bits that make a difference between the CSL and standard M engine, and the air scoop makes a tiny bit of influence in that. I think the filter is more responsible for the sound than swapping out a piece of curved plastic by a piece of straight-ish metal.
Except: M3 CSL.
Now you could argue that the intake, air filter, exhaust and scoop on the CSL are so specially designed that it would jack up the Z4 M prices considerably, and BMW voted not to take a chance and just deliver the car with the standard engine...
I don't think it is the sound. I really do think it are the tiny bits that make a difference between the CSL and standard M engine, and the air scoop makes a tiny bit of influence in that. I think the filter is more responsible for the sound than swapping out a piece of curved plastic by a piece of straight-ish metal.
ellerpe said:
Thats all fine, and I don't doubt benefits can be found.
I just want decent proper proof, and I haven't seen any proper proof. From the manufacturer or a decent consumer test.
If it were cheap and the mk1 bum dyno said it was quicker, fair enough, but the claim is pretty large, and the cost is fairly large too. I'd want proof.
Dave
